OS2 World.Com Forum

Subject  :  What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  Kim
Date  :  30 Jan, 2005 on 14:16
Currently there is around 8% that have answered that the next step for eCS is none of the suggested answers in the current poll. What would be the best next step to move eCS forward if you don't agree with the poll then?

Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  Christian Hennecke
Date  :  30 Jan, 2005 on 14:39
Before they create a developer program they should make sure that interested people can actually develop. This includes fixing the Developer's Toolkit which is a mess in its current state. Several parts are severely broken (rc.exe, nmake.exe, the SOM compiler emitters, etc.). Otherwise, I don't see much chances to attract *new* people.

Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  cyberspittle cyberspittle@yahoo.com
Date  :  30 Jan, 2005 on 18:47
Hi Kim,

I'll have to agree with Christian, after all, OS/2 lost the developer war. Most people thought it was a desktop war, however, it was the lack of applications.

Organizing developers would help, and I believe, is also fundamental. WPS and C++ is pretty high-level in skills. Someone like myself, less skilled, can do Presentation Manager (API) work, especially prototyping. Others may be better skilled at REXX and fully capable of creating system tools via scripts (http://www.os2ezine.com/20020716/page_7.html - for example).

Organizing and classifying the current level of developers is crucial. We also need to get former developers out of retirement and back to OS/2 and into eCS.


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  Cris
Date  :  31 Jan, 2005 on 10:46
Hi Kim,
I agree with Christian.
Currently setting up a *working* development environment is too much of an effort. You need different compilers (or even different releases of the same compiler) to do some things, and you have to use different revisions of the toolkit, or sometimes even mix parts from different releases of the toolkit.

IMHO a *major* step towards helping the developers could be to adopt a standard compiler (I think OpenWatcom would be a wise choice, but also the new GCC from Innotek would do) and provide a well organized and updated toolkit that perfectly fits the chosen compiler.

HTH
Bye

Cris


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  Kim
Date  :  31 Jan, 2005 on 11:58
I'm asking now from the view of non-developers point (last time I wrote code goes back to the C64...), I understand that the general feeling is that the development toolkits are a mess and needs to be set up proper. What steps would be needed to get the things together to a proper dev kit.?

Even if I'm not thinking about getting into serious coding I some times wonder, hey would I at least be able to compile this piece of open source code? I usually drop the idea and I guess lots of other people with me is that we sometimes would like to have some kind of guideline manual how to proceed and what is need to be checked if the code would at all works under OS2. I stumple once a while over something interesting and drop it or post a suggestion within this forum to ask if there are other that might have the interest of compile it.
I fully understand that it is not just a matter of compile some few lines of code and get it to run under OS2. But, if there where any kund of guidelines or something that would help people a few more steps, it might generate some more applications for OS2 (at least when it comes to cli based).

Was above totally dump and useless, I don't know - but hey worth asking isn't!


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  jjurban jjurban@attglobal.net
Date  :  02 Feb, 2005 on 14:03

Kim (30 Jan, 2005 14:16):
Currently there is around 8% that have answered that the next step for eCS is none of the suggested answers in the current poll. What would be the best next step to move eCS forward if you don't agree with the poll then?

Drivers, drivers drivers! For printers, video, LAN, etc.

John


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  Kim
Date  :  02 Feb, 2005 on 14:18

Drivers, drivers drivers! For printers, video, LAN, etc.

Since neither IBM or any other large vendor makes any efforts regarding drivers and I not sure how much efforts is done via eCS and the releases made. But, how do one then make things happend? I mean open source can be ported by thoose who can, right? Are there other ways, tools and kit or emulation by using ODIN? There was earlier some media attention regarding some kind of universal driver kit that let you run windows drivers within linux enviroment, what happend there?


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  Radek hajek@vuv.cz
Date  :  02 Feb, 2005 on 15:44
I don't think it was a "developer war", which had been lost. I don't think it's the lack of tools, which have driven away developers. Note that OS/2 had a very good C/C++ compiler starting from Watcom 9.5 or so. IMO, EPM is one of the best plain text editors available. Other developer tools are available, too.

What was lost was the "market war". Most of computers can be found in "travel agencies" of all kinds. The people operating these computers aren't computer experts and they cannot appreciate a good and stable operating system. They want to write a bussiness letter and compute gain for the last month. That's all.
These people will refuse to change operating system if they do not see any reason for it. And the reason can be only one: a far better "office" than the one offered by the Big Bill. OS/2 have never offered something far better. IBM Works need not be considered at all. Star Office *is* better but not as far as writing bussiness letters is considered. Moreover, OS/2 is "complicated", it needs understanding something and making some custom settings. How bad!
As a result, OS/2 became a "special" operating system - only for those that need the stability and reliability and only for those that can appreciate possibilities offered by the operating system. OS/2 has a very small market share.

The rest is the consequence of the very small market share. Hardware developing firms do not support OS/2 - waste of time. That means no drivers and no possibility to use modern hardware. Software developing firms do not support (with a few exceptions) OS/2 - waste of time. That means, no applications at the "professional" level and no OS/2 developers.

What to do? The worst thing to do would be giving up. IMO, we need to organize open projects, namely "pure OS/2" open projects. The reason isn't separating ourselves, the reason is exploiting possibilities, which we have. A single platform project should result in a more efficient application, which will integrate better into the operating system. Moreover, a single platform project makes the project files much more readable and understandable. Among others, we should derivate OS/2 open projects from existing open projects.
This way we should try to compensate for the lack of "official interest" and make OS/2 more attractive for more people. We need most urgently:

- Drivers of all kind.
- Better font rendering machine (I know there is Innotek but we need it as a part of operating system itself). The "first look" is often decisive
- An "office" software (I have many objections against Open Office in its current state)

And many other software ...


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  cyberspittle cyberspittle@yahoo.com
Date  :  02 Feb, 2005 on 18:50
Hello Radek,

I'll have to respectfully disagree. I distinctly remember the hey day of OS/2 (OS/2 2.11-OS/2 3 Warp). It was the number one selling software product. There were multiple venders selling compilers, besides Watcom and IBM. Borland had it's compiler with an excellent IDE. Also arriving at the same time was GCC in it's version EMX. I would also like to mention Hockware (or maybe it was Metaware Visual C/C++).

OS/2 was easier to use then MS-DOS and Windows 3.1/Windows for Workgroups. It was drag and drop, a simple uncluttered interface. The only problem you had was buying software. Microsoft Office 4.2 and other programs ran fine until Microsoft kept changing Win32s in it's efforts to transition to Windows 95 as it's flagship. IBM couldn't keep up with the changes. The developer community didn't have the resouces to make different versions of it's product for multiple platforms. Since OS/2 ran Win16 programs, why make native OS/2 versions? When it came time to upgrade to the next version of Office, you had to upgrade your operating system ... to Windows 95. Without developers, you don't have applications, without applications ... you see where this is going.

As to drivers, OS/2 has video, but you are right about printers, though.


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  Radek hajek@vuv.cz
Date  :  02 Feb, 2005 on 19:55
Sure, OS/2 v.2.11 was a well selling software. And then? And then the end. No office suite. I consider it the main marketing strategy mistake of IBM as far as OS/2 is considered. Having a quality operating system does not suffice. Being able to run 16 bit Windows apps does not suffice as well. You need something "really terrific" for MOST of the potential users of the operating system. OS/2 needed a native (not a port to OS/2) office suite, which would be better than the Big Bill's one and which would convince the "travel agencies" to leave Big Bill.

Here is the result: OS/2 v.2.11 sold well. It was a new operating system, much better than other operating systems. It sold well as long as the users managed with emulation of 16 bit Windows. And then the users returned to Big Bill.


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  Kim
Date  :  02 Feb, 2005 on 21:13
Question that I get once a while is for example is OS2 hard to install, no not really I usually say. I mean I remember all the trouble I had with 2.x and 3.x.... as well during period I was working at IBM OS2 Software Hotline in Denmark and should hear all the crazy stories about people having problem with OS2... But, enought about that. When it then comes, Cool - how can I take a peek at OS2 or eCS for that matter? Well, when it comes to eCS it would be great if there where some kind of limited demo och CD that one could boot up directly from the CD. I recall that there was something going on, but don't know if they ever got around to release something. But, just being able to let people download something to play around with would be highly possitive for OS2. I mean already today I've managed people to take a look at both pmMail, pmView, Mozilla, Firefox, OpenOffice, etc. and most of the time the migrate to mentioned tools... So getting people so far and many of them are so totally tired of virus attacks and other crap. So I would guess that I could get couple of people to migrate to OS2. But, still just being able to peek at this OS to a price tag for around 150-200 euro is way to high...

Radek; what is the many objections you have against OpenOffice?


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  os2power
Date  :  04 Feb, 2005 on 08:51
"None of the above" because it's not possible that an OS all times requires major tweaking with config.sys and the like in order to work.

Drivers and application programs are way too far behind and it's users
are definetely fading away at a quickerr rate, we all die hard can imagine.

My daughter at 12 she doesn't even know what OS/2 Warp is, because they don't teach it in school and at home it's just too tough for her to learn it. It's not for kids!

It's a niche, like the Antiques Car Collectors, of course they still can
run down the street, but most of us don't want to keep on keeping
up with endless hours of work to keep them running.

That's what OS/2 Warp or eCS for that matter have become, old lovers, and we all know it that friends can be lovers, but lovers can't
be friends.

So, never mind marketing strategies, new eCS needs major developement first to become a real hassle free system with all
drivers and applications available period.

ciao.


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  cyberspittle cyberspittle@yahoo.com
Date  :  04 Feb, 2005 on 18:33

Kim (30 Jan, 2005 14:16):
Currently there is around 8% that have answered that the next step for eCS is none of the suggested answers in the current poll. What would be the best next step to move eCS forward if you don't agree with the poll then?

OS2Power,

OK, so what is the next step?


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  The OS2Guy os2guy@gmail.com
Date  :  04 Feb, 2005 on 23:58
I think the next step for eCS would be to offer it as open source rather then allow one entity to control it for their own profit. Simply make eCS itself free and charge for just the base OS/2 operating system. That would open eCS and OS/2 up to everyone insted of dividing the world of OS/2 as it has done today.

Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  Sebadoh sys3175@optonline.net
Date  :  05 Feb, 2005 on 01:23
I don't know.. I wouldn't exactly call OS/2 hard. My girlfriend who had never seen it before, and only has a basic understanding of windows sat down at my computer the first time she was at my house and used it. My friends 4 year old daughter knows how to load my games up and play. Who cares if OS/2 stores it's settings in a config.sys? Is that much different then windows storing all it's crud in the registry? Not really. With ecs/xworkplace you have almost every "tweak" at your fingertips. I don't ever see OS/2 as a viable mainstream OS.. that was lost long ago, and for the time being nothing is going to replace windows in the computers of the masses. The point is, we need to make it easy for the few dedicated developers to continue work, and maybe bring in a few new people now and then. That is impossible if the tools don't work. It is a major turn off when you download a free compiler package, and then can't even compile an app because you have no toolkit, so you get the toolkit and it doesn't work with the compiler you have, and most likely at that point you just give up.

What WOULD help.

Warp In Packages (or other self extracting installer) of:

OpenWatcom w/ toolkit
GCC w/ toolkit

seperate packages for the following, which works for both compilers:

Driver package (with the exception of non-public domain parts, and a project to replace the non-pd parts with something new)

Som package w/ samples

Warpoverlay / Snap! overlay package w/ samples

dive w/ samples

avio samples

People who start a project and don't finish it should be encouraged to release as much of the project they could (legally) or atleast a detailed list of information for people who would want to replace it, in the case of device driver development.


os2power (04 Feb, 2005 08:51):
"None of the above" because it's not possible that an OS all times requires major tweaking with config.sys and the like in order to work.

Drivers and application programs are way too far behind and it's users
are definetely fading away at a quickerr rate, we all die hard can imagine.

My daughter at 12 she doesn't even know what OS/2 Warp is, because they don't teach it in school and at home it's just too tough for her to learn it. It's not for kids!

It's a niche, like the Antiques Car Collectors, of course they still can
run down the street, but most of us don't want to keep on keeping
up with endless hours of work to keep them running.

That's what OS/2 Warp or eCS for that matter have become, old lovers, and we all know it that friends can be lovers, but lovers can't
be friends.

So, never mind marketing strategies, new eCS needs major developement first to become a real hassle free system with all
drivers and applications available period.

ciao.



Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  Sebadoh sys3175@optonline.net
Date  :  05 Feb, 2005 on 01:27

The OS2Guy (04 Feb, 2005 23:5:
I think the next step for eCS would be to offer it as open source rather then allow one entity to control it for their own profit. Simply make eCS itself free and charge for just the base OS/2 operating system. That would open eCS and OS/2 up to everyone insted of dividing the world of OS/2 as it has done today.

The only person it has divided from the "world of OS/2" is you. You friggen nutcase. OS/2, ECS will NEVER BE PUBLIC DOMAIN. It cannot be. IBM does not own the entire source to OS/2. They are not going to put themselves into such a bad legal position. Oh wouldn't it be great to get the source of OS/2, without any multimedia support source, no som, no pmshell (developed outside of IBM by berkely), no networking source (partially owned by microsoft). Come on. Wake up. This is as good as it is going to get, and the longer to try to turn people from ecs, the worse the situation will get. There is right now only one company that has the power to sway IBM in the least, to get fixes for gradd, kernel and addition apm support.. and that has been serenity. Companies need money to talk to IBM. They need money in order to get support for the base OS from IBM. And there is nothing wrong for a company which makes a product (even if it is extensions for a licensed sub product) to expect to make MONEY. This is the US. The reason buisness exists is MONEY. The reason I write software is MONEY. So I can own a car, a house, have a family. I do not do this for my love of IBM, or OS/2, or you. I do it, and many others as well.. for MONEY.


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  ChrisR cwroossien@home.nl
Date  :  06 Feb, 2005 on 05:48
What I'm missing in eCS is sound support in VDM on newer mainboards.
SB simulation in a VDM DOS box would be a must I think, because only eCS still can play spacequest and monkey island and kingsquest, the older versions when it was still a real adventure... ect ect..
I think eCS is the only system with real good DOS implementation, I know that lots of people still want to play their (old) DOS games.. but they can't

Another thng I personally would like is VPC/Svista with USB support, in fact, thats the only thing missing in VPC.
I got a demo version of Svista from Mensys and it was disapointing.. no USB, not even sound!!! VPC is still a better choice.

Then I can finally destroy my windoze partition(s)


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  The OS2Guy os2guy@gmail.com
Date  :  06 Feb, 2005 on 07:21

Sebadoh whined:
The only person it has divided from the "world of OS/2" is you. You friggen nutcase. OS/2, ECS will NEVER BE PUBLIC DOMAIN. It cannot be. IBM does not own the entire source to OS/2. They are not going to put themselves into such a bad legal position.

As usual, the eCS zealot has misread what I wrote. I said nothing about releasing OS/2 to the public domain. I said release eCS and PAY FOR OS/2. eCS is a dog product, doesn't work and needs so much hand holding that it will never sell to anyone beyond the few IBM Hater market - you've demonstrated that very clearly.

This ridiculous idea that IBM has abandoned OS/2 is complete rubbish. Without OS/2 there is simply no eCS and to this day Serenity has never been able to increase the OS/2 user base. Remember that was their original claim - that eCS would sweep the nation and shake the Microsoft user into the arms of Serenity.

As long as Serenity keeps eCS to themselves the eCS consumer is dead in the water. Serenity loses their OEM OS/2 contract on December 31, 2005 and that will leave every eCS consumer in the lurch. OS/2 users with valid Passport Advantage contracts will continue to receive OS/2 updates, files, drivers, and new software.

Serenity needs to let go of eCS and hand it out as open source to all OS/2 users who want it and feel they can improve on it. *Real* OS/2 users are going to avoid it like the plague. My OS/2 system today outperforms the latest release of eCS v1.2 and will continue to do so for many years to come.


Subject  :  Re:What should be the next step for eCS? -> None of the above
Author  :  Kim
Date  :  06 Feb, 2005 on 13:19
Well, enough of this for now, this thread is starting to go totally out of focus from the original topic, What should be the next step for eCS?. What is being said now has been said already within the usenet so many times. So either maintaine to the original thread topic or take the dialog somewhere else!

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