OS2 World.Com Forum

Subject  :  What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  Terry tgindy@yahoo.com
Date  :  08 Nov, 2006 on 19:03
Here's a link to another possible "Sun open-sourcing Java" teaser.

Q#1: "What is the favorable fallout potential for eCS & OS/2 if Java is open-sourced?"

http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2006-11-08-019-26-OS-LL-DV&tbovrmode=1#talkback_area

Q#2: "How can this be tied into Java platforms like Eclipse and IBM J2EE Community Edition Application Server (earlier discussed here) if Java is open-sourced?"

http://www.os2world.com/cgi-bin/ultraboard/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=12&TID=1048&P=1#ID1048

Q3: "Could this forum possibly provide a consolidated source for Java application Tips & Tricks coordination under eCS & OS/2 if Java is open-sourced like it is now doing for gaming?"

OS/2 World is so important to us because it is one of the resources that we eCS & OS/2 users can count upon to be there tomorrow.

There are many eCS & OS/2 users like myself who are not "everyday" programmers, but perhaps "a tad dangerous" because we are not afraid to get under the operating system's hood if there is some guideline instruction.

The Java tools potential (along with SAMBA, VNC, SVista, KVM, networking, etc.) seems to be headed in the right direction for us to use eCS & OS/2 as the core Workstation operating system.


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  obiwan
Date  :  10 Nov, 2006 on 19:11
1. The potential is that if folks using OS/2 are so motivated, a current Java could be ported to OS/2, like Mozilla.

2. Someone else could answer better than I, but hasn't yet. I understood that the challenges with Eclipse are related to it requiring a more current Java than is available on OS/2. If that problem is solved, is there more to do? I can't be sure because I don't work with Eclipse.

El Vato is to be congratulated for his successful work on J2EE CESA on OS/2. It looked to me like the bulk of the work was working around the absence of an OS/2 installer. A more current Java shouldn't make any difference there, but it would give it more capability, ease bug fixing, and ensure it continues to run on OS/2 as it develops.

Even without a current Java, one could, with some work, create an installer that works on OS/2. There is a sort of irony, though, in the impossibility of getting IBM to consider OS/2 a "supported platform" for it, even if it is thoroughly tested. How can IBM even implicitly support J2EE on their own platform that they do not support? I'd be interested in how that plays out.

3. OS/2 World is a great source for tips, etc., but a "consolidated" source, probably not. The Open Source Java implementation for OS/2 would need a project site like Sourceforge or Netlabs. I would suggest Netlabs host the source repository, bug-tracking, release packages, and wiki, while OS/2 World continue to provide news and forum discussion as it does now.


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  El Vato
Date  :  10 Nov, 2006 on 20:40

Terry (08 Nov, 2006 19:03):
Here's a link to another possible "Sun open-sourcing Java" teaser.

Q#1: "What is the favorable fallout potential for eCS & OS/2 if Java is open-sourced?"

http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2006-11-08-019-26-OS-LL-DV&tbovrmode=1#talkback_area


Quite informative link --the open source community especially likes the GPL(ed) notion that Sun's previous CEO had resisted but that now (apparently) migtht even help prevent fragmentation of Java.

The executive director of the Eclipse foundation had invited (teased) Sun to release Java along the same model of the Eclipse Foundation.
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,2017113,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K0000612


Terry (08 Nov, 2006 19:03):Q#2: "How can this be tied into Java platforms like Eclipse and IBM J2EE Community Edition Application Server (earlier discussed here) if Java is open-sourced?"

http://www.os2world.com/cgi-bin/ultraboard/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=12&TID=1048&P=1#ID1048


Even though Java is not open source, it is widely adopted because it is an open standards technology. Hence, some half portion of a (native) implementation of a Java Virtual Machine depends on the services of the underlying OS/API and the other half is the common agnostic denominator in every implementation (M$ wanted to do away with the agnostic aspect and, consequently Sun sued the monopolyt).

What I am getting at is that if a given organization desired to support (thereby commiting itself to) OS/2, even though Java is not open source, that organization could still implement natively a JVM on OS/2. Hence, from my perspective, open sourcing Java will have minimum effect on OS/2ers.

The Eclipse IDE (with a plug-in) connects to WASCE to provide a convenient way for a programmer and/or administrator to test, tune, and deploy, J2EE and Web applications . That, which is taken for granted by other os users (like Linux, see my Debian host where I am about to configure WASCE from the Eclipse environment before actually starting a project: http://www.chingonazo.com/eclipseLinuxWASCE.jpg ) continues to be a dream for the OS/2er.


Terry (08 Nov, 2006 19:03):
Q3: "Could this forum possibly provide a consolidated source for Java application Tips & Tricks coordination under eCS & OS/2 if Java is open-sourced like it is now doing for gaming?"

OS/2 World is so important to us because it is one of the resources that we eCS & OS/2 users can count upon to be there tomorrow.

There are many eCS & OS/2 users like myself who are not "everyday" programmers, but perhaps "a tad dangerous" because we are not afraid to get under the operating system's hood if there is some guideline instruction.


The Java 3d environment has been open source for some time. If it were made native by those with "dangerous" (and masochist tendencies on OS/2, an 3 dimensional GUI a la Looking Glass Project could be possible: http://www.sun.com/software/looking_glass/

That would provide OS/2 with an alternative to XGL on Linux and the MS Vista's so called "advanced" GUI (meaning: resource hog --I am inclined to believe by looking at the recommended hardware).


Terry (08 Nov, 2006 19:03):The Java tools potential (along with SAMBA, VNC, SVista, KVM, networking, etc.) seems to be headed in the right direction for us to use eCS & OS/2 as the core Workstation operating system.

That is the biggest problem that I perceive for the remaining OS/2ers: we are a mix of conservatives --who do not want to let go of institutions that in turn do not know (or do not want) to reinvigorate the operating system --in the true sense-- and anarchists who believe in breaking away from that inertia if we are to be really heading somewhere --as you suggest.

Just my take on the whole issue --of course.

El Vato.


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  Terry tgindy@yahoo.com
Date  :  10 Nov, 2006 on 21:23
It was interesting to see how many topic views occurred before "obiwan" and "El Vato" gave their well-reasoned replies to my thinking-out-loud Java questions.

P.S.: Nice El Vato homepage at http://www.metztli-it

The three questions from this well-intentioned eCS user are really meant to get us to think a little deeper about direction, and how we may more effectively coordinate our efforts as an eCS & OS/2 community.

I know there are no easy answers, but I just can't help thinking that we really are closer to technology solutions than we think we are in the areas of Java, Virtualization, and Networking.


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  obiwan
Date  :  10 Nov, 2006 on 23:18
Very interesting facts and material you mention, El Vato. I'll definitely be looking into those references.

I'm a bit confused, though, on this part.


El Vato (10 Nov, 2006 20:40):
What I am getting at is that if a given organization desired to support (thereby commiting itself to) OS/2, even though Java is not open source, that organization could still implement natively a JVM on OS/2. Hence, from my perspective, open sourcing Java will have minimum effect on OS/2ers.

It seems to me, particularly in light of your later remarks about the need to break away from inertial institutions, that the open sourcing of Java is essential to OS/2ers, precisely because it is up to the users to implement it. There doesn't seem to be a given organization with the resources or will to take the initiative, and those that have in the past cannot make any promises about the future. Only by having the source truly Open can unassociated individuals collaborate. Or am I missing something?


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  El Vato
Date  :  11 Nov, 2006 on 19:40

Terry (10 Nov, 2006 21:23):
It was interesting to see how many topic views occurred before "obiwan" and "El Vato" gave their well-reasoned replies to my thinking-out-loud Java questions.

...not to mention that it was Friday


Terry: P.S.: Nice El Vato homepage at http://www.metztli-it

When I "clicked" on it, it shows an error page...but thanks --it is the intention that counts.


Terry: The three questions from this well-intentioned eCS user are really meant to get us to think a little deeper about direction, and how we may more effectively coordinate our efforts as an eCS & OS/2 community.

I know there are no easy answers, but I just can't help thinking that we really are closer to technology solutions than we think we are in the areas of Java, Virtualization, and Networking.


...so the next step is a native Java port to OS/2 project by the OS/2 world users?

The possibility of creating an independent native Java OS/2 port has always existed; what has been missing is the level of user involvement as seen in the open source side.

As an example, the free SDK1.0 Blackdown port of Java for the Linux OS was done by Randy Chapman ( http://www.javalinux.net/JavaLinux/ )

Whereas commercial vendors licensed the SDK source code from Sun, ported the source to their respective environments (and subsequently paid royalties to Sun for distributing the SDK and JRE), the Blackdown organization licensed the same source code from Sun under a no-cost noncommercial agreement.

The result was a native and free Java port for Linux. Sun has based their current Linux Java offering on the Blackdown port.

Why did not OS/2ers do something similar back then? We had somone to do it for us. We were (and are) used to relying on others to the point of now accepting excuses for real innovation in OS/2 indefinitely.

Notwithstanding, the possibility of a free native OS/2 Java port has always been there --with no need for Sun to open source the code for us to benefit.

...again, my take on the issue at hand.

El Vato


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  flywheel flywheel@worldonline.dk
Date  :  12 Nov, 2006 on 21:43


...so the next step is a native Java port to OS/2 project by the OS/2 world users?

Either the community is to perform the port itself or to "persuade" either Goldencode or Innotek/Mensys to do the deed.
The latter requires the project to be somewhat lucrative.



Why did not OS/2ers do something similar back then? We had somone to do it for us. We were (and are) used to relying on others to the point of now accepting excuses for real innovation in OS/2 indefinitely.

I know - we have been spoiled. We used to have the strength to carry projects like these - and we used to be attractive enough to have others do the work for us, but I'm very much in doubt about it today - I would love to be proved wrong.

BTW : Java SE 6.0 (JDK/JRE) Release Candidate is now available.


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  Martin
Date  :  13 Nov, 2006 on 14:07
Sun is putting Java under GNU GPLv2 (General Public License version 2) according to today's news.

http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/..

http://news.lycos.com/dynamic/stories/S/...

There is also Project Glassfish available and it says it is GPL V2.
https://glassfish.dev.java.net/


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  Fahrvenugen
Date  :  13 Nov, 2006 on 17:14
This is great news! The GPL is probably the best license that Sun could have chosen. Now I guess we just need to port...

Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  Blonde Guy
Date  :  14 Nov, 2006 on 01:01
You know, Java has been open-source for a long time. This license change is probably good, but Sun was controlling Java with their test certification, which was about $50K.

That's peanuts for most platforms, but a show-stopper for us.

Golden Code has the tools to complete a native port. I'd expect they could do it again, if paying for the test cert wasn't required, and we could raise a bit of money for them.

I don't know if Java 6 is that different to build from 1.4.

---
Expert Consulting for OS/2 and eComStation


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  flywheel flywheel@worldonline.dk
Date  :  14 Nov, 2006 on 11:09

Blonde Guy (14 Nov, 2006 01:01):
That's peanuts for most platforms, but a show-stopper for us.

I'd rather say that it is peanuts for the few, but a show-stopper for the most.

I know that the few dominates most of the scenery - but actually you're still only talking about a handfull of different systems - which makes this even more grotesk.


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  obiwan
Date  :  14 Nov, 2006 on 19:36
What I like about it being GPL is if Sun doesn't want to play with us we can fork the necessary portion (just have to give it a different name).

Please if anyone tries anything, do tell.


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  obiwan
Date  :  18 Nov, 2006 on 19:31
Project Looking Glass looks pretty cool, but I'm guessing not all that useful to us until we can do hardware-accelerated 3D?

Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  flywheel flywheel@worldonline.dk
Date  :  19 Nov, 2006 on 00:46

obiwan (18 Nov, 2006 19:31):
Project Looking Glass looks pretty cool, but I'm guessing not all that useful to us until we can do hardware-accelerated 3D?

Quite right!

As I have understood Looking Glass has a lower overhead than the Vista thingie - which is rather scary.


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  magog
Date  :  25 Nov, 2006 on 02:26

obiwan (17 Nov, 2006 07:33):
2. Someone else could answer better than I, but hasn't yet. I understood that the challenges with Eclipse are related to it requiring a more current Java than is available on OS/2. If that problem is solved, is there more to do? I can't be sure because I don't work with Eclipse.

Eclipse needs a port of SWT (Eclipse doesn't use Java SWING) and that has been the problem in the past. There is some work done by (basically) two people to port SWT 3.1/3.2 to OS/2 in the last month but the progress is slow and so far no code is in the SWT SVN Repository.
The new port will be based as far as possible on the port of an old version (Code in CVS at Netlabs...don't know if it's the latest or if some is missing)
http://svn.netlabs.org/swt


obiwan (17 Nov, 2006 07:33):
3. OS/2 World is a great source for tips, etc., but a "consolidated" source, probably not. The Open Source Java implementation for OS/2 would need a project site like Sourceforge or Netlabs. I would suggest Netlabs host the source repository, bug-tracking, release packages, and wiki, while OS/2 World continue to provide news and forum discussion as it does now.

I agree on that one, but we need help from GoldenCode.
I've already asked if they would provide some sourcecode for Sound,... if there was some OpenSource project to port the latest (Java 6) to OS/2 and eCS. So far they are considering this possibility but so far it's unlikely. There needs to be some work done before they do so I think, beside this Sun has not released all stuff necessary.

---
Regards,
Juergen Ulbts (Germany)

*** Java Movie Database - http://www.jmdb.de/ ***
*** New version available (2006-11-17) ***
*** Website has been updated ***


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  Terry tgindy@yahoo.com
Date  :  07 May, 2007 on 20:03
It looks like at least the "raw material" is close to reality...

http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php/id;33875160;fp;2;fpid;1


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  Martin
Date  :  10 May, 2007 on 16:12
Well, according to OSNews.com dated on 2007-05-09.

"Sun Microsystems has announced the release of an open-source version of its Java Development Kit for Java Platform Standard Edition. Sun has contributed the software to the OpenJDK Community as free software under the GNU GPLv2. Sun also announced that OpenJDK-based implementations can use the JCK (Java SE 6 Technical Compatibility Kit) to establish compatibility with the Java SE 6 specification. OpenBSD has already started importing the release."

http://www.osnews.com/story.php/17878/Sun-Open-Sources-Java

Here it is the link of the OpenJDK Community.


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  Redbill
Date  :  10 May, 2007 on 22:29

Blonde Guy (14 Nov, 2006 01:01):
Golden Code has the tools to complete a native port. I'd expect they could do it again, if paying for the test cert wasn't required, and we could raise a bit of money for them.

I don't know if Java 6 is that different to build from 1.4.


I agree. I estimate the mininum amount for them porting it would be $10k perhaps $50k meaning a 100 donators would have to spend $100+ each...
The eComStation group at Yahoo has around 1200 members. If we can get at least 200 of them willing to donate there may be a chance.

Best regards,
RedBill


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  El Vato
Date  :  11 May, 2007 on 00:38

Martin (10 May, 2007 16:12):
Well, according to OSNews.com dated on 2007-05-09.
"[...] Sun also announced that OpenJDK-based implementations can use the JCK (Java SE 6 Technical Compatibility Kit) to establish compatibility with the Java SE 6 specification. OpenBSD has already started importing the release."

http://www.osnews.com/story.php/17878/Sun-Open-Sources-Java

Here it is the link of the OpenJDK Community.


Yes, and OpenBSD is still waiting to have the rest of the promised code released. JavaONE 2007 will end tomorrow and the code is still "under review" (to be released).

On the other hand, the Apache Harmony Project is asking for a "simple" change in the licensing terms for the JCK to be used in its project (< http://www.os2world.com/cgi-bin/ultraboard/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=83&TID=120&P=2#ID120 >). It is not asking for code to be released. But Sun refuses (< http://www.oreillynet.com/onjava/blog/2007/04/suns_official_response_to_open.html >).

Apropos, I was at JavaONE 2007 on Tuesday and attended a couple of sessions during the afternoon. In the evening, I attended an (Apache) "Derby and Drinks, II" hosted by Sun's Derby committers and community (it was not clear which community --but at least one of Sun's pr community was there).

After being all day on my feet, I grabbed a few bites and sat down to enjoy instead of mingling with the party people. Being an outsider and not fitting the mold, I was approached by a pr/marketing rep ("There is no free lunch in America" someone once said).

She (Ms. PR) was sober and obviously was curious about what someone like El Vato was doing there ( I had been invited by an original CloudScape developer that I met through a friend the previous day at CommunityOne --held there also, by the way).

While I introduced myself, it came to my mind about asking her about the problem being raised by the Apache Foundation in its Open Letter to Sun. I mentioned her that Apache was not singling Sun for this matter, that Apache would take the the same action if another organization (like IBM) were the case. She said that there was no problem and referred me to another "community relations" person. He, again, emphasized that there was absolutely no problem with Apache but provided no further details and we chatted about other issues.

I thanked him for his input and started a chat with another Sun employee who was involved with Solaris. After recommending him to include the GNU utilities into Solaris among other strategies for getting Linux administrators familiar with their OS, I decided to leave around 8:30PM (early --it ended at 11:00PM).

On my way out, I was asked by Ms. PR whether my questions had been answered. I had to reply in an affirmative way since I understood what was implied: "...from the response it appears that they are digging in “we’ll have to agree to disagree on some points”.

Conclussion: there appears that there is something that Sun fears in Apache's Harmony Project. Of course, it may be intellectual in nature and potentially against the survival of Sun. Notwithstanding, it may be also that Sun wants to keep its thumb pressed on Java implementations that do not originate with them --as my fan of Chewbacca friend noted in prior referenced post.

Against that backdrop, OpenJDK might not necessarily be the best alternative for OS/2 if later intellectual issues might come and bite us: "There is no free lunch in America."

Best !


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  El Vato
Date  :  11 May, 2007 on 01:09

obiwan (18 Nov, 2006 19:31):
Project Looking Glass looks pretty cool, but I'm guessing not all that useful to us until we can do hardware-accelerated 3D?

I believe that a fundamental issue facing OS/2 is what identity should it adopt once a given 64-bit kernel is identified for a subsequent upgrade.

The trend continues to be collaboration in nature, read the investments major comapanies are making in Second Life, for example. If that were the aim where OS/2 will be directed, then, the OS/2 platform where a 3-D collaborative capability is built in with Java might be interesting.

At JavaONE I noted that at least one vendor is betting that a Java 3-D environment will catch on. But most interesting is another open source implementation for 3-D collaboration that might be suitable for an future OS/2 implementation.

It is the Project Wonderland: http://lg3d-wonderland.dev.java.net/

It needs Java 6 as a minumum requirement and accelerated drivers. Both, I see still far in the OS/2 horizon --if at all-- but those capabilities might be taken as a long term aim.

A couple of Project Wonderland reps were showing an implementation running on Ubuntu.
They mentioned that they expected to make money on subscriptions possibly --when I queried them on the subject.

And I kept imagining: What if those who hold the rights to OS/2 code focused on real solutions instead of a parasite living on the resources of another os virtual make-believe pseudo update to retro OS/2...


Subject  :  Re:What's the eCS & OS/2 potential if Java is open-sourced?
Author  :  Kim
Date  :  19 May, 2007 on 23:09
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