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SVista host status for eCS 2.0
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obiwan
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21. Re:SVista host status for eCS 2.0
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Terry (25 Jan, 2007 23:03):
[1] Assuming the use of a SVista/win4lin-supported linux host, and it would be Debian, would it not make more sense to use something like Freespire which is Debian-based and with an extremely strong commitment to current multimedia & driver support?

As I understand the post, it would seem the idea is to set up a minimal Linux base as transparent as possible. Debian seems a suitable starting point to assemble just what is needed for a host. Whether it borrows from Linspire or Ubuntu, the description of "Debian-based" is still valid. I don't think he means that the distributed Linux host OS would be a complete and supported desktop. Though of course I don't know.


[2] With the purchase of a revamped SVista package, would it not be more feasible to ignore the Innotek eCS OpenOffice offering, and simply download the complimentary Linux version of OpenOffice and offset the additional product cost?

Maybe. Depends how well that works on the desktop, and whether the OpenOffice port develops more OS/2-specific features.


[3] Would a win4lin BSD host also be offered as there is now win4BSD from win4lin?

I doubt that multiple host bases would be developed by SSI as a marketed and sold product, but the potential is there.


QUESTIONS: What are the plus-es and minus-es here? Host vs. Guest? Server vs. Client? Etc.?

I wonder about the marketability of such a product in any form. As others have pointed out here, virtualization is a funny game, with profitability being sucked out of it. With the strong opinions of OS/2 users, it would not seem that the market for eComStation would be anywhere close to the same as a guest OS, even with a "transparent" host. I would rather see other OS's features "grafted" into eComStation. I get the impression Mr. St. John would rather do that too, but wants to keep options open as development resources are scarce and users' needs are diverse. I think most of us would enjoy using a revamped SVISTA on eCS to run other OS's as a guest for various purposes. I can't speak to the topic of virtualized servers. I generally prefer using other platforms than OS/2 for servers these days.

Date: 27 Jan, 2007 on 21:03
El Vato
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22. Re:SVista host status for eCS 2.0
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obiwan (27 Jan, 2007 21:03):

Terry (25 Jan, 2007 23:03):
[1] Assuming the use of a SVista/win4lin-supported linux host, and it would be Debian, would it not make more sense to use something like Freespire which is Debian-based and with an extremely strong commitment to current multimedia & driver support?

As I understand the post, it would seem the idea is to set up a minimal Linux base as transparent as possible. Debian seems a suitable starting point to assemble just what is needed for a host. Whether it borrows from Linspire or Ubuntu, the description of "Debian-based" is still valid. I don't think he means that the distributed Linux host OS would be a complete and supported desktop. Though of course I don't know.


...as I read this thread, an old Star Trek episode comes to mind. I can not recall the episode name nor the exact plot --only the essence of the story:

Against the "prime directive" of not interfering on the natural course of life in the Universe (I think), the Enterprise beams up a "primitive" tribe into the holographic section of the ship. The tribe's original planet habitat was about to be destroyed in the context of evolutionary phenomena interaction --if one is to believe Darwin and his followers' dogma, of course.

Once in the holographic area, the tribe is guided by one(some) of the crew members to another "local" territory where they will be "safe" --unbeknownst to the tribe that in effect they had been migrated to a different planet in the Universe!

If SSI's intention is to coax OS/2ers to swallow the "migration to a different OS" pill, they are surely coating it with honey to make it easy to swallow.

Why go to such extremes and not simply select an Unix/Linux open and free (or relatively free) kernel and wrap/build OS/2 specific functionality around it

Through my own window in my ship, I have witnessed events that attest to my suggestion above. For instance: an Open Solaris kernel with a Debian wrapping, 64-bit ready, easier native Java implementation, ZFS file system, and the possibility of virtual containers.

The project above started life in 2005 and is currently at Beta 6 (read: errors). Undoubtedly because of that, it took an extremely long time to install in VPC/2 and the networking aspect had to be tinkered to make it connect.


obiwan (27 Jan, 2007 21:03):

Terry (25 Jan, 2007 23:03):[2] With the purchase of a revamped SVista package, would it not be more feasible to ignore the Innotek eCS OpenOffice offering, and simply download the complimentary Linux version of OpenOffice and offset the additional product cost?

Maybe. Depends how well that works on the desktop, and whether the OpenOffice port develops more OS/2-specific features.

[...]


It may also be added that the overall relevance of the OpenOffice suite is dependent on whether sufficient contradictions are submitted by Feb. 05, 2007 by the local standards bodies around the world. The Open Document Format (ODF) --natively supported by OpenOffice and one of its prominent properties-- will be history if MS imposes its pseudo open alternative over that of ODF.

Date: 28 Jan, 2007 on 08:17
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23. Re:SVista host status for eCS 2.0
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El Vato (28 Jan, 2007 08:17):
Why go to such extremes and not simply select an Unix/Linux open and free (or relatively free) kernel and wrap/build OS/2 specific functionality around it

Through my own window in my ship, I have witnessed events that attest to my suggestion above. For instance: an Open Solaris kernel with a Debian wrapping, 64-bit ready, easier native Java implementation, ZFS file system, and the possibility of virtual containers.

The project above started life in 2005 and is currently at Beta 6 (read: errors). Undoubtedly because of that, it took an extremely long time to install in VPC/2 and the networking aspect had to be tinkered to make it connect.



El Vato, check out http://wiki.netlabs.org/index.php/Voyager_Discussion
Date: 28 Jan, 2007 on 16:05
Shai
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24. Re:SVista host status for eCS 2.0
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El Vato (28 Jan, 2007 08:17):
...as I read this thread, an old Star Trek episode comes to mind. I can not recall the episode name nor the exact plot --only the essence of the story:

Against the "prime directive" of not interfering on the natural course of life in the Universe (I think), the Enterprise beams up a "primitive" tribe into the holographic section of the ship. The tribe's original planet habitat was about to be destroyed in the context of evolutionary phenomena interaction --if one is to believe Darwin and his followers' dogma, of course.

Once in the holographic area, the tribe is guided by one(some) of the crew members to another "local" territory where they will be "safe" --unbeknownst to the tribe that in effect they had been migrated to a different planet in the Universe!



Sorry El Vato, despite that I have no idea what the current discussion in this thread is about, I can tell you that this was definitely not in The Old Series - there was no holodeck - except in The Animated Series (holographic recreation room or something like this). I do think the episode you mentioned was a Voyager one, or maybe it was from The Next Generation but I'm not so sure about this, too. So I had to be a know-it-all, sorry...

Greetings, Robin

Date: 28 Jan, 2007 on 16:06
abwillis
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25. Re:SVista host status for eCS 2.0
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Shai (28 Jan, 2007 16:06):

El Vato (28 Jan, 2007 08:17):
...as I read this thread, an old Star Trek episode comes to mind. I can not recall the episode name nor the exact plot --only the essence of the story:

Against the "prime directive" of not interfering on the natural course of life in the Universe (I think), the Enterprise beams up a "primitive" tribe into the holographic section of the ship. The tribe's original planet habitat was about to be destroyed in the context of evolutionary phenomena interaction --if one is to believe Darwin and his followers' dogma, of course.

Once in the holographic area, the tribe is guided by one(some) of the crew members to another "local" territory where they will be "safe" --unbeknownst to the tribe that in effect they had been migrated to a different planet in the Universe!



Sorry El Vato, despite that I have no idea what the current discussion in this thread is about, I can tell you that this was definitely not in The Old Series - there was no holodeck - except in The Animated Series (holographic recreation room or something like this). I do think the episode you mentioned was a Voyager one, or maybe it was from The Next Generation but I'm not so sure about this, too. So I had to be a know-it-all, sorry...

Greetings, Robin



It is a Next Generation episode. I don't recall how they came to "bend" the Prime Directive now. I just remember them walking for a long long time on the holodeck as they traveled at Warp speeds to a new planet.
Date: 28 Jan, 2007 on 17:51
Terry
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26. Re:SVista host status for eCS 2.0
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"Homeward" (Stardate: 47423.9) is the "Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode referred to above by El Vato. IMDB has a review that sums it up pretty well...

http://imdb.com/title/tt0708731/

The analogy of the Prime Directive is that every Federation citizen, who really does understand the Prime Directive by heart, although having differing opinions, are looking out for the good of the Boraalins as a whole, and do focus on the ultimate goal of the least amount of cultural contamination to the Boraalin community.

To simplify all of this analogy - Virtualization would allow the many cultures to co-exist and work together without one culture, the Borg of Redmond, to Lord it over everyone else for personal gain, as has been well-documented by past behavior.

SO: Now that we know the potential status of a <= SUPPORTED VIRTUALIZATION => solution for eCS-OS/2.

Let's look at the vision here - avoiding the lure of immersing ourselves in an esoteric discussion, like the Linux KDE vs. Linux Gnome debate, since eComStation is already a combination of co-mingled proprietary & open-source solutions...

I'm wondering how transparent the SSI/eCS/Win4lin boot-up could be:

[1] Would it kick into the eComStation Workplace Shell upon boot-up, but take just a little longer for system loading as eCS would be a piggy-back load after a Linux initial load?

[2] eCS-native WPS session visibly loaded, Linux session loaded seamlessly in the background - OS/2-kernel 32-bit apps ready to load?

[3] And as now, with java, odin 32-bit, win 16-bit, and dos 16-bit programs waiting to be called upon?

If it is this transparent, the "Win4lin thin-layered Debian-based Linux" does make sense.

The eCS vision, the ultimate goal, is to retain eComStation as the primary workstation. My original thread question refers to the vision behind a supported virtualization solution for eComStation.

The other open-source virtualization solutions will still move forward in development, but; the Win4lin virtualization would seem to be a quick direction to get moving.

Date: 29 Jan, 2007 on 17:36
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27. Re:SVista host status for eCS 2.0
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Shai (28 Jan, 2007 16:06):

El Vato (28 Jan, 2007 08:17):
...as I read this thread, an old Star Trek episode comes to mind. I can not recall the episode name nor the exact plot --only the essence of the story:

Against the "prime directive" of not interfering on the natural course of life in the Universe (I think), the Enterprise beams up a "primitive" tribe into the holographic section of the ship. The tribe's original planet habitat was about to be destroyed in the context of evolutionary phenomena interaction --if one is to believe Darwin and his followers' dogma, of course.

Once in the holographic area, the tribe is guided by one(some) of the crew members to another "local" territory where they will be "safe" --unbeknownst to the tribe that in effect they had been migrated to a different planet in the Universe!



Sorry El Vato, despite that I have no idea what the current discussion in this thread is about, I can tell you that this was definitely not in The Old Series - there was no holodeck - except in The Animated Series (holographic recreation room or something like this). I do think the episode you mentioned was a Voyager one, or maybe it was from The Next Generation but I'm not so sure about this, too. So I had to be a know-it-all, sorry...

Greetings, Robin



I think it was a Star Trek; The Next Generation movie. They try to get them to move to a different planet by beaming them onto a ship with a holodek. They were going to do it without the planets residence knowing it was done. Actually the group planning it just wanted to get the people off the planet. It might not be the episode in question but it is very close.

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Date: 29 Jan, 2007 on 22:12
BigWarpGuy
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28. Re:SVista host status for eCS 2.0
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abwillis (28 Jan, 2007 16:05):

El Vato (28 Jan, 2007 08:17):
Why go to such extremes and not simply select an Unix/Linux open and free (or relatively free) kernel and wrap/build OS/2 specific functionality around it

Through my own window in my ship, I have witnessed events that attest to my suggestion above. For instance: an Open Solaris kernel with a Debian wrapping, 64-bit ready, easier native Java implementation, ZFS file system, and the possibility of virtual containers.

The project above started life in 2005 and is currently at Beta 6 (read: errors). Undoubtedly because of that, it took an extremely long time to install in VPC/2 and the networking aspect had to be tinkered to make it connect.



El Vato, check out http://wiki.netlabs.org/index.php/Voyager_Discussion[/quote]


There is also the OSFree project. They need developers.
http://www.osfree.org

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Date: 29 Jan, 2007 on 22:14
El Vato
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29. Re:SVista host status for eCS 2.0
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Terry (29 Jan, 2007 17:36):
"Homeward" (Stardate: 47423.9) is the "Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode referred to above by El Vato. IMDB has a review that sums it up pretty well...

http://imdb.com/title/tt0708731/

The analogy of the Prime Directive is that every Federation citizen, who really does understand the Prime Directive by heart, although having differing opinions, are looking out for the good of the Boraalins as a whole, and do focus on the ultimate goal of the least amount of cultural contamination to the Boraalin community.


A couple of issues come to mind:

1) How many OS/2ers--of those who "discover" the whole scheme-- are expendable? Remember him who came out of the holographic area in the episode that you so well know? How many will not swallow the "migration pill" --even if coated (marketed) with honey

2) The protection afforded by incubation inside the virtual resources of a host is finite. It makes sense from an (old) business model to continue to extract gain from the OS/2 WITHOUT having to invest significantly into ACTUAL development improvements of the OS/2 platform.

In the long run, howsoever complex and painful, the cross-pollination ( what you referred to as "cultural contamination") of the OS/2 code/components with resources existing in the raw Web (Universe) environment is a NECESSARY process if the OS/2 is to survive on its own. Of course, many users will head towards Zarathustra's cave, unable to cope. Notwithstanding, those strong ones who remain commited will nurture the operating system as an self-sustaining entity --or else...

The latter might be viewed as a justification of the "prime directive" --if we were to continue within the Star Trek episode mentioned above. In other words, the Prime Directive embodies the notion that entities, if they are worthy of "life" and of individual characteristics, survive on their own creative resourcefulness --not by being taken into a holographic environment ad infinitum.

The argument, of course, might be made about this incubation period being only ephemeral in nature, until another "suitable" kernel (planet) is "found" to use as a base. However, if that were the case, why did they wait until the last minute? That is, why did they wait until now that IBM is not providing the heavy code lifting

Needless to say, if the intention were to benefit the OS/2 by a guiding strategy that ultimately would produce a self-sustaining OS, those --who are now suggesting a virtualization path-- would not have waited until the very end of support of the OS/2. They would have an EXISTING and transitional virtual solution ready NOW that Big Blue is not committed anymore.

Again as I have expressed in the past, Golden Code Development showed seriousness by developing native solutions for the OS/2 --the others' approach appear to be simply for the near term profit while another "gig" comes along.


Terry (29 Jan, 2007 17:36):
To simplify all of this analogy - Virtualization would allow the many cultures to co-exist and work together without one culture, the Borg of Redmond, to Lord it over everyone else for personal gain, as has been well-documented by past behavior.

[...]

...they [Borg] are already "scanning" the proposed host for vulnerabilities as is implicit in their deal with Novell. Notwithstanding, that may be viewed as another argument for a self-sustaining OS/2 rather than a parasyte requiring another entity's resources to survive --howsoever "transparent" those may be.

Date: 29 Jan, 2007 on 23:58
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30. Re:SVista host status for eCS 2.0
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El Vato (29 Jan, 2007 23:5:
The argument, of course, might be made about this incubation period being only ephemeral in nature, until another "suitable" kernel (planet) is "found" to use as a base. However, if that were the case, why did they wait until the last minute? That is, why did they wait until now that IBM is not providing the heavy code lifting


Virtualization has been a part of the overall eComStation plan since 2001. Serenity was involved in the Connectix/Innotek VirtualPC project.

If Microsoft had not bought VPC things would be much more advanced right now. For eComStation none of the current products have caught up to VPC's flexibility and stability

Date: 30 Jan, 2007 on 01:41
El Vato
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31. Re:SVista host status for eCS 2.0
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last updated at 30 Jan, 2007 08:11 (2 times)

ecsguy (30 Jan, 2007 01:41):

El Vato (29 Jan, 2007 23:5:
The argument, of course, might be made about this incubation period being only ephemeral in nature, until another "suitable" kernel (planet) is "found" to use as a base. However, if that were the case, why did they wait until the last minute? That is, why did they wait until now that IBM is not providing the heavy code lifting


Virtualization has been a part of the overall eComStation plan since 2001. Serenity was involved in the Connectix/Innotek VirtualPC project.

If Microsoft had not bought VPC things would be much more advanced right now. For eComStation none of the current products have caught up to VPC's flexibility and stability


...I would appreciate if you did not quote me out of the focused context in which I direct my inquiry. It is one thing to be "involved" in virtualization --as you have evangelized elsewhere in your posts; and another quite different notion for virtualization to be used as a temporary container vehicle --as I have anticipated the issue might be raised by a marketing type as justification for migration instead of SUBSTANTIVE OS/2 development efforts.

Moroever, Connectix was acquired by MS in 2004. If there had been a roadmap (by those who now admonish an OS/2 consuming "transparent" resources) for a subsequent path to another OS/2 kernel --which undoubtedly would have been 64-bit-- it is certainly not there to be referenced.

...about "stability" of VPC/2 --obviously you only run a single instance of VPC. The Odin layer between the WinXX application and the OS/2 starts diminishing its performance as more is required of the guest OS until it crawls, or in certain arbitrary cases, locks the OS/2 environment.

It is no wonder then, that virtualization technology like XEN is more effective (read: performance) when it (para)virtualizes Linux where XEN is a "native" implementation and the Linux flavour guest "knows" that it is being virtualized than, say, another operating system with a different design composition.

And there the advantage of virtualization in data centers where Novell's Linux is gaining traction and possibly the strategy of MS by "partnering" with Novell and XENsource. In the manner expounded priorly --i.e., XEN on server Linux (para)virtualizing Linux (data center) servers, virtualization is totally different than client virtualization as is used by an ordinary home/office user. If it were the same, why do you think that MS discontinued supporting OS/2 as a host (hint: It knows that OS/2 relegated as a mere guest does not represent a threat. Likewise, MS possible strategy is to demote Linux to guest status in the data center --thus undermining Linux (host) painfully gained achievements in the enterprise environment.)


Best regards.

Date: 30 Jan, 2007 on 06:23
SVista host status for eCS 2.0
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