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WAPE; Replacement for SDD?
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Doodle
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21. Re:WAPE; Replacement for SDD?
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Someone should tell Jozef to check the #netlabs IRC channel on irc.netlabs.org. There are usually a lot of clever people at there, and most of them would be happy to help him to solve his OS/2 programming problems.

Doodle

Date: 21 Mar, 2007 on 09:47
cbo
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22. Wape and Odin
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Having been involved in Odin development only a very, very little little bit (fixed one little bug), I am NOT as enthusiastic as you all seem to be! But of course I would be happy to be proven wrong...

I read that the author claims to be "almost ready" with his port - and then he enumerates the hardest possible obstacles that are still to be overcome. So my conclusion is: Odin is "much more almost ready" than Wape actually!

The main difference is probably: Odin has been tried by many of you, and you have seen the problems with all but very "well behaving" Windows programs (not using DirectX, hardware accelerated video, communication with devices not supported on OS/2 etc.). But then I read that Wape takes over more or less the whole graphics subsystem, making all other OS/2 apps that would run beside it kill the display - hmm, this sounds like some very "brute force" attacks and I doubt that this "very little step" to make everything run smoothly is really so little...

First of all: What do most people want to run with Odin? Of course the things they would currently do with Windows probably because it doesn't work with OS/2! And what is that?

- Some multimedia and gaming applications

- Running or communicating with devices that are not supported with OS/2

- "Mammouth" applications like specific office suites and the like

And it's mainly with *THESE* that Odin is not a solution for the time being! But it's exactly the same things that are still open in Wape, as far as I understand the translated explanations. (Just imagine: implementing DirectX support!! This would have to kill and fully reimplement the whole OS/2 graphics subsystem - and as far as I understand it the author really started to do that...)

So would Odin be the "better solution" anyway? I'm not really sure, because BOTH Wape and Odin development suffers from the same disease: too few developer ressources to make a chance against the constantly evolving Windows functionality (which is not only Windows, but also complete subsystems like the IE, the MS installer, DirectX etc., which are needed to make more complex functions run).

- Wape: Only ONE single developer, and no chance to ever get anybody else engaged because the whole thing is going to be "closed source" (however he wants to get around the LGPL of Wine!??). And once the workload of fixing the "very very last bugs" (which will certainly be there, and be MANY and COMPLICATED!!), that one developer will almost certainly get struck - at least I am very much afraid he will -, with nobody being able to take over.

- Odin: Open source (so everybody could contribute in principle), but extremely complicated development setup with tools that are not "officially" available any more, partially redundant and very complicated system of many, many makefiles that is not so easy to understand, which inhibits any interested developers to really do anything. But this obstacle COULD be overcome if somebody really finds some time for it!

For me Odin is still the "favorite", simply because it is Open Source and with that it is always possible to do a next step, although even small ones need lots of work (but in that respect Odin is clearly much further than Wape: "we" already see the painful "last steps" before us, while the Wape developer sounds like he doesn't even realize they will be there...). But I see Odin mainly as a tool for "relatively small", and mainly for "well behaving" applications.

For the kind of applications many people seem to dream of running with Wape, I would much more see a virtualizer solution! The disadvantage is the much larger demand for ressources, and the necessity for a Windows license, but while this is not worth the effort for "smaller" things, it might well be for the "larger" ones!

And don't forget: Keeping a virtualizer up to date is probably much less of a moving target as keeping up with all the ever changing and growing Windows functionality that would need to be rebuilt with a system like Wape and Odin! A virtualizer would only need an updated Windows release.

Of course M$ will not make life easy for virtualizers, because that is probably a much bigger threat for their monopoly than any "alternative OS" so far: It lets people switch to somewhere else, without that step being a 100% "yes or no" question! But we would be in the same boat with others who want to make it possible, so there might be a chance...

Bottom line: As much as I would also *LIKE* to believe in a solution like Wape to run "just any Windows application" on my OS/2 system, I cannot believe it yet, and first of all: I do NOT believe that the author is really as close to such a system as he claims - where my disbelief comes mainly from his own descriptions!

Date: 21 Mar, 2007 on 11:28
boldos
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23. Re:WAPE; Replacement for SDD?
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Well, workib just promised that it will be open sourced one day...

There have to be one (rather big and important) modification done. When this is complete, it will all go open source. Workib just said it will take several weeks.

Date: 21 Mar, 2007 on 12:14
Christian Hennecke
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24. Re:WAPE; Replacement for SDD?
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I really don't understand this "killing the OS/2 graphics subsystem" talk. He should be able to do this like XFree86/OS2, which does coexist quite peacefully with PM.
Date: 21 Mar, 2007 on 15:19
USBGuy
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25. Re:WAPE; Replacement for SDD?
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Well I think he kinda loads the original Windows driver.
Not sure if he uses the FSDive interface to unload/reload PM (gre_death calls) so the windows driver can takeover the HW.
But I guess if you kill/end his app the HW is in an unknown state so a gre-call to end FS could crash the system.

But as far as for ODIN vs WAPE. ODIN uses WINE code in many places, but as at of the time when ODIN was created there was no recent GCC so syncing the code between ODINand WINE needed rewriting many parts as the macros didn't work (like for COM) with ICC.

But with a modified build system one could keep odin more in sync with WINE by using GCC for all higher level DLLs (Comon Dialogs etc.) and
use ICC only for those DLLs where compiling them with GCC is to much work. But never the less try to rewrite/rework them so that in the end all of ODIN can be compiled with GCC.

As for WAPE If he realy get real Windows driver loading, it would be interesting to extract what is needed for this and try to build a GRADD wrapper around this so that OS/2 could use the windows driver. Via a GRADD extension ODIN could access the directx interface to get HW 3D.

Date: 21 Mar, 2007 on 16:41
Cornelis Bockemühl
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26. Sessions
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Sure: with OS/2, Wape could open another "session", which would actually make it independent of the whole PM graphics system! This was also my first thought when reading the translated descriptions, because from there I am getting the impression that Wape works rather with all kinds of "hacks" than doing that, at least so far. This could indeed solve the graphics problems, probably.

But my points making me pessimistic are rather:

- Experience within every larger software project (and this definitely IS a larger project!) shows that the way from "something running quite nicely already" to a finished product tends to be VERY FAR! (That's the main reason why you see so much software versions 0.9xxx in the free software world.)

- I am sure that the real problems of "porting Wine" will be more or less the same than the ones Odin faces already for quite some time - so why should a new project get there more easily than so many knowledgeable people that have worked for the Odin project already? Don't forget that Odin already contains lots of Wine code.

What gives me still some optimism at least:

- If the project would become open source anyway, there is much more of a chance that the single developer could get assistance or even somebody to take over if ever he would loose his patience with the project

- Getting rid of all the over-complicated old stuff in the Odin development system could be a chance as well for advancing faster

We will see - and be happy and grateful for whatever comes out of the one or other project!

Date: 21 Mar, 2007 on 16:54
Sebadoh
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27. Re:Sessions
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Exactly.. for all intents and purposes ODIN is WINE. (for OS/2). Most of the win32 support (except for bits of open32 stuff) are from wine, it has a binary loader so we can actually load applications.. and some helpers to make the lower level stuff sorta work. So, back to my point.. wouldn't make more sense to try and clean up the odin build process and try to get this guy in on the odin game. Perhaps with the assistance of the other developers who have worked (and somewhat abandoned odin) he could gain perspective on what is possible, and may even have something to contribute back to odin. Again, why try to rebuild the wheel when really all it needs is a bit of polishing. And, for people who are having trouble with odin, there are ways around almost all the problems (except for those which it cannot run certain apps at all). I have never had any problems with it interfering with Innotek applications, as long as the system was configured properly. (infact, innotek's runtime is just a custom build of odin anyway)


Cornelis Bockemühl (21 Mar, 2007 16:54):
Sure: with OS/2, Wape could open another "session", which would actually make it independent of the whole PM graphics system! This was also my first thought when reading the translated descriptions, because from there I am getting the impression that Wape works rather with all kinds of "hacks" than doing that, at least so far. This could indeed solve the graphics problems, probably.

But my points making me pessimistic are rather:

- Experience within every larger software project (and this definitely IS a larger project!) shows that the way from "something running quite nicely already" to a finished product tends to be VERY FAR! (That's the main reason why you see so much software versions 0.9xxx in the free software world.)

- I am sure that the real problems of "porting Wine" will be more or less the same than the ones Odin faces already for quite some time - so why should a new project get there more easily than so many knowledgeable people that have worked for the Odin project already? Don't forget that Odin already contains lots of Wine code.

What gives me still some optimism at least:

- If the project would become open source anyway, there is much more of a chance that the single developer could get assistance or even somebody to take over if ever he would loose his patience with the project

- Getting rid of all the over-complicated old stuff in the Odin development system could be a chance as well for advancing faster

We will see - and be happy and grateful for whatever comes out of the one or other project!


Date: 22 Mar, 2007 on 03:03
The Warper
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28. Re:WAPE; Replacement for SDD?
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Well, this is just a remark, but... did you carefully look at the WAPE screenshots provided on the Czech forum? I mean, look at the eComCenter: you'll find that the bar is actually displaying the same info (except for the "Wape Desktop" title or whatever it is). The activitity percentage is always 10.0%, and - this is odd - the time displayed is the same! Please, take this as an input for your reflections, 'cause I really don't know anything about WAPE more than I read on this forum, but this circumstance, I think, should need some explanation. As for now, I can think of two possibilities:
1) the screeshots are fake ones;
2) the eComCenter is locked (and stuck with the same info displayed).
Everyone can have his own idea, of course, but as for the first possibility, I'd also invite you to take note of these other elements:
a) in the screenshot with the game (ukazka.jpg), if you look at the eComCenter you'll be probably able to see that the baseline of the "Wape Dekstop" etc. "title" doesn't correctly match the baseline of the bar;
b) in the screenshot displaying "WAPE notebook properties", you can see at the top of the window square, just above the title-line, some strange graphical artifacts; the same goes for the frame line inside the properties window.
I think this should be explained by someone (possibly the author), or anyone can judge by himself.
Please take this as a constructive post (I'd be VERY happy if something like WAPE was available for our platform!). I don't want by no means start a (virtual) fight with anyone!
Date: 22 Mar, 2007 on 11:16
obiwan
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29. Re:WAPE; Replacement for SDD?
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last updated at 22 Mar, 2007 17:12 (1 times)
Interesting observations. It is curious that the CPU usage is near zero while a graphics-intensive game is playing. It is of course possible the eCenter has frozen.
Date: 22 Mar, 2007 on 17:08
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30. Re:WAPE; Replacement for SDD?
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People used to put out fake screenshots of Win32 on OS/2 all the time 10 years ago, before there was Odin. Became a regular game spotting the flaws.
Date: 22 Mar, 2007 on 17:14
boldos
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31. Re:WAPE; Replacement for SDD?
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Well, due to incompatibility issues the eCenter WAS frozen. That is why it looks "the same" on both pictures. Anyway, Workib promised to create a video, so you have something to believe to.

2 Sebadoh & others:
Of course you're right, from one point of view it makes really no sense to reinvent the wheel. On the other hand, some programmers just like to do things on their own (trust me, I know what I'm talking about, I'm "cursed" by this too ) and sometimes it is even necessary to reinvent the wheel in a different way. I'm in contact with Workib daily and I know more about the project, so believe me, in this case it IS necessary to rework the whole stuff. Of course, I will not say more about WAPE - I do not want to scare you .

Date: 22 Mar, 2007 on 17:18
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32. Re:WAPE; Replacement for SDD?
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I look forward to seeing the video.

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Date: 22 Mar, 2007 on 19:58
RobertM
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33. Re:WAPE; Replacement for SDD?
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obiwan (22 Mar, 2007 17:14):
People used to put out fake screenshots of Win32 on OS/2 all the time 10 years ago, before there was Odin. Became a regular game spotting the flaws.

Well, there was also a rumor that IBM had actually completed but not released a Win32 subsystem that would run Win9x apps, and was based off DAPIE - with screen shots from the internal IBM tests... I even had people at IBM who had confirmed that.... never saw it, so who knows...

Date: 22 Mar, 2007 on 21:34
obiwan
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34. Re:WAPE; Replacement for SDD?
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last updated at 23 Mar, 2007 21:13 (1 times)
Erased this post. Wrong forum.
Date: 23 Mar, 2007 on 21:12
WAPE; Replacement for SDD?
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