Author Topic: OS4 question  (Read 2774 times)

R.M. Klippstein

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OS4 question
« on: July 11, 2016, 10:19:35 pm »
Will using the OS4 kernels possibly do away with the 4gb limit for files? .vdi files, and others commonly run in excess of 4gb and up tp 8gb in many cases. Need a way of copying these files. Also is there an up-to-date install procedure for the OS4 kernels?




Dave Yeo

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2016, 11:41:36 pm »
The JFS file system handles files larger then 2/4GBs. I think FAT32 is limited to 4GBs (or is that 2GB?) and of course HPFS is limited to 2GB files.

R.M. Klippstein

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2016, 12:07:57 am »
Hi Dave, I'm using eCS with JFS and anything I try to copy craps out when it gets to 4gb. The only way I've found to get around it is to get what I need on a DVD, then use DVD/CD Toys to make a .iso of it. A couple of years ago I used a program that split the big files into a smaller pair and that seemed to work. Can't remember what program I was using, but I do remember it was a real pain to use.

Doug Bissett

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2016, 12:09:08 am »
Quote
Will using the OS4 kernels possibly do away with the 4gb limit for files? .vdi files, and others commonly run in excess of 4gb and up tp 8gb in many cases.

The kernel has nothing to do with file size limits. That is the file system that does that. Mentioned above, FAT32 (in OS/2) is limited to 4 GB (had a fight with that recently).

JFS is limited to something larger than the 25 GB ZIP file that I have for one of my backups (and, yes I can restore it).

I copy those files across my LAN to another eCS machine using RSYNC.

I also copy them to a couple of JFS formatted USB devices, using copy, or RSYNC.

SAMBA will also allow me to copy them to other machines over the LAN (including using win 10 as the client), but the eCS SAMBA client is pretty flaky, while the SAMBA server seems to be rock solid.

FWIW, I have quit using HPFS, which saves me some very valuable shared memory space. I use JFS for everything except sharing files with windows, which requires FAT32. JFS is noticeably faster, and far more reliable, than HPFS IMO. It is recommended to get the latest version from Arca Noae, because it fixes a rare, but very damaging, problem.

I did play with OS/4 for a while, but once it started interfering with my normal system, I quit using it, although I still have it in a virtual machine (which I haven't used for more than a year).

R.M. Klippstein

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2016, 12:28:21 am »
Hey Doug, How have you been? Well I hope!
From what you just described, it looks like I should format my memory sticks to JFS and then my copying should proceed without problems, kinda dumb I didn't think of that! I'll give it a try, thanks!

Doug Bissett

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2016, 04:32:10 am »
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Hey Doug, How have you been? Well I hope!

Well, I have Age, and it is catching.   ;D

Quote
it looks like I should format my memory sticks to JFS and then my copying should proceed without problems

That works okay, as long as you don't need to share the data with some other OS. I have heard that some Linux distros will use our JFS, but I never got it to work, when I tried it. Sharing very large files with other OSs can be done over a LAN, using RSYNC, or SAMBA, but you also need a file system on the other end, that can handle large files.

OS4User

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2016, 10:04:06 am »
Also is there an up-to-date install procedure for the OS4 kernels?

here is some info
http://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/OS/4

OS4User

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2016, 10:07:12 am »
I did play with OS/4 for a while, but once it started interfering with my normal system...

Interesting, how did it interfere with you "normal" system ?

Doug Bissett

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2016, 06:15:55 pm »
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Interesting, how did it interfere with you "normal" system ?

It was mostly having to mess with DOSCALL1.DLL, but system dumps no longer worked properly, which made it impossible to do software testing for other projects. I also use the RAMDISK that QSINIT puts into memory above the 4 GB mark, so I wouldn't use the OS/4 loader anyway. It just got to be too much effort to mess with all of that stuff, so I quit using OS/4, which never seemed to work any better, or worse, than the original kernel. Someday, when I find some spare time, I may try again, but it won't be soon.

FWIW, lower shared memory space is now my biggest problem. Does OS/4 improve on that? The real killer seems to be large windows executable files. When the WP shell goes digging to find the icon, shared memory drops by the size of the file it is working with. If I have 100 meg of free space, and load a folder with a file that is 101 meg, it is instant death. Usually just a system hang, but often a complete system crash. At first I thought it might be the FAT32 driver, but it also happens on JFS drives. I have had a few instances when the Free Shared Mem program showed 100 meg left, and I loaded a folder with a file that is 99 meg. Free shared memory dropped to 1 meg, for about 30 seconds, then it jumped back up to 100 meg free. Of course, if anything else tries to allocate lower shared memory, at that time, it causes a crash. Using "SET NOLARGENTEXEICON=1" in CONFIG.SYS doesn't seem to make any difference, which may point to a flaw in XWorkplace. In any case, this problem is causing me to reboot a couple of times a day, although there are times when I can go for 4 days without a reboot. I have never figured out what the difference is.

OS4User

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2016, 11:15:14 pm »
It was mostly having to mess with DOSCALL1.DLL,
99% of time I run OS/4 and I have installed DC1 supplied with it. If sometimes I have to run the original kernel, I never change DC1 to original and everything works fine. So it's hard for me to consider it a mess.


It just got to be too much effort to mess with all of that stuff
What do you mean ?

FWIW, lower shared memory space is now my biggest problem. Does OS/4 improve on that?
Low shared memory starts from the highest address of private memory and ends at approx. 512M border. I figure that your large windows executable files rise the upper edge of the private memory quite high and that leaves too little space for shared memory.

Please tell me what kernel could help in this case?

OS/4 may not offer much for this issue - it offers to programs approx. 512Kb more low shared than the original kernel.

I would suggest to analyze and minimize using the low shared memory in favor of using high shared memory. Some DLLs allow loading to high shared memory with no harm.

Doug Bissett

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2016, 04:59:08 am »
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I would suggest to analyze and minimize using the low shared memory in favor of using high shared memory. Some DLLs allow loading to high shared memory with no harm.

I use high shared memory for the OpenOffice DLLs, but that only works when I also use the Quick Start feature, otherwise when OO closes, the machine hangs, or crashes, about 7 times in 10. I have the same problem when trying to use high memory with Firefox, but it doesn't have a method to keep the DLLs loaded, so I use them loaded low. I have tried other things, but they just don't work when loaded high, or the machine crashes when they unload. I know that somebody has done some work on that problem, but it obviously needs more work.

Quote
I never change DC1 to original and everything works fine. So it's hard for me to consider it a mess.

Sorry, but I can't use any unsupported software that affects normal operation. If I do, I can't tell if that causes the problem, or if the software that I am testing is causing the problem. It is not smart to cause confusion, so I don't do it.

Quote
Please tell me what kernel could help in this case?

I have no idea, and that is one of the reasons why I don't use the OS/4 kernel. When I was playing with it, I saw no reason to even consider using it. It did nothing, at all, to improve things, so why should i compromise my system to use it? Someday, OS/4 may offer some good reason to use it, meanwhile I don't see the point in spending time messing around with it. Then, there is the legal grey area, which needs to be cleared up before OS/4 can even be considered by a lot of people.

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OS/4 may not offer much for this issue - it offers to programs approx. 512Kb more low shared than the original kernel.

512KB might help, in about 5% of the crashes, but it isn't enough to encourage me to bother with the OS/4 kernel.

Dave Yeo

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2016, 05:55:36 am »
Doug, are you accessing the Windows icons in their binary package? If so, you could probably extract them, probably with a Windows tool, convert them into OS/2 icons (winico on Hobbes) and save them in the same directory with an ico suffix. Presumably the system will just load the ico file rather then hunting through the Win binary.

OS4User

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2016, 08:43:39 am »
Sorry, Doug, I forgot to tell that I'm not going to encourage or convince you to use OS/4 :)
But your post could create a wrong picture for other people, so I started to argue with you just to show to OTHERS that your statements are mostly not correct.

I use high shared memory for the OpenOffice DLLs, but that only works when I also use the Quick Start feature, otherwise when OO closes, the machine hangs, or crashes, about 7 times in 10. I have the same problem when trying to use high memory with Firefox, but it doesn't have a method to keep the DLLs loaded, so I use them loaded low. I have tried other things, but they just don't work when loaded high, or the machine crashes when they unload. I know that somebody has done some work on that problem, but it obviously needs more work.

Yes, there is such an issue in the original kernel but it's absent in OS/4 kernel.

Quote
I never change DC1 to original and everything works fine. So it's hard for me to consider it a mess.

Sorry, but I can't use any unsupported software that affects normal operation. If I do, I can't tell if that causes the problem, or if the software that I am testing is causing the problem. It is not smart to cause confusion, so I don't do it.

Funny. DC1 from OS/4 is the only supported version :)

Then, there is the legal grey area, which needs to be cleared up before OS/4 can even be considered by a lot of people.

If someone considers himself as absolutely white, he may use the official kernel and patch it  himself to OS/4 level but not use the already patched kernel that is being distributed. The patch will be provided for such persons upon their request.

Rick C. Hodgin

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2016, 06:23:36 pm »
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Will using the OS4 kernels possibly do away with the 4gb limit for files? .vdi files, and others commonly run in excess of 4gb and up tp 8gb in many cases.

The kernel has nothing to do with file size limits. That is the file system that does that. Mentioned above, FAT32 (in OS/2) is limited to 4 GB (had a fight with that recently).

The kernel can have something to do with size limits, but those limitations are then imposed on top of the file system limits due to an implementation (virtual memory map of a file, for example, could limit it to a certain size).

It depends on the area in question, how the kernel is designed, and what features of the kernel are being used in relation to the file.  Also, certain kernel or driver implementations do not always access the full range of features provided for by the file system specification itself, but sometimes only a lesser subset.  In such cases, one lesser subset may be only supporting a particular size due to internal kernel / driver pointer storage allotment, and the like.

Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin

Rick C. Hodgin

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Re: OS4 question
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2016, 06:34:16 pm »
FWIW, lower shared memory space is now my biggest problem. Does OS/4 improve on that? The real killer seems to be large windows executable files. When the WP shell goes digging to find the icon, shared memory drops by the size of the file it is working with. If I have 100 meg of free space, and load a folder with a file that is 101 meg, it is instant death. Usually just a system hang, but often a complete system crash. At first I thought it might be the FAT32 driver, but it also happens on JFS drives. I have had a few instances when the Free Shared Mem program showed 100 meg left, and I loaded a folder with a file that is 99 meg. Free shared memory dropped to 1 meg, for about 30 seconds, then it jumped back up to 100 meg free. Of course, if anything else tries to allocate lower shared memory, at that time, it causes a crash. Using "SET NOLARGENTEXEICON=1" in CONFIG.SYS doesn't seem to make any difference, which may point to a flaw in XWorkplace. In any case, this problem is causing me to reboot a couple of times a day, although there are times when I can go for 4 days without a reboot. I have never figured out what the difference is.

This is likely the result of a memory-mapped file, and a bug in the algorithm which traverses the executable file format looking for embedded icons.  For most executables it probably wasn't an issue, so the bug was never seen.  But in very large executables, it shows up.

If you are able to open the .exe with 7-Zip, it has the ability to enumerate sub-components within the executable and extract icons and other files for you, and then you can use them that way.  If not, then there are programmatic ways to access them using some Windows function calls (you probably already know this, and the bug is the issue, not getting to the icons ... :-)).

Best regards,
Rick C. Hodgin