Author Topic: App Store Ranting  (Read 3461 times)

Martin Iturbide

  • OS2World NewsMaster
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 264
  • -Receive: 50
  • Posts: 1755
  • Your Friend Wil Declares...
    • View Profile
    • Martin's Personal Blog
App Store Ranting
« on: July 12, 2016, 11:37:22 pm »
Hi Lewis

About ANPM, I was hoping that the tool can evolve to be more like an "App Store" that masks the RPM complexity on the back, instead of being just a GUI for RPM/YUM.  Something similar to the "Ubuntu Software Center" for example (see attached picture), it does not has to be exactly the same, but to be more visually appealing to install applications.

Should I open a ticket for this?

Regards


Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.

Andy Willis

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 9
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2016, 03:50:59 am »
About ANPM, I was hoping that the tool can evolve to be more like an "App Store" that masks the RPM complexity on the back, instead of being just a GUI for RPM/YUM.  Something similar to the "Ubuntu Software Center" for example (see attached picture), it does not has to be exactly the same, but to be more visually appealing to install applications.

Martin, I am curious?  What do you like about the USC?  One of the first things I do on Ubuntu is install the older installer (can't think of its name) because I really dislike trying to use USC. 

Doug Bissett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 38
  • Posts: 946
    • View Profile
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2016, 05:17:38 am »
Quote
About ANPM, I was hoping that the tool can evolve to be more like an "App Store" that masks the RPM complexity on the back, instead of being just a GUI for RPM/YUM.

Please, NO! "App stores" are one of the very worst things that have happened over the last few years.

ANPM was designed to be a GUI for RPM/YUM, since RPM/YUM is completely unusable for most people. In that capacity, it has done well. ANPM was also supposed to be a GUI for WarpIn, which has much less need for such a thing, but some sort of tracking between the two would be good. Unfortunately, the main programmer (Alex Taylor) has been far too busy with more important things. The "App Store" concept is supposed to be handled by RPM/YUM, but RPM/YUM has so many faults, that it has not actually been done. It seems that the first "product" to be made available, will be Firefox. It will be interesting to see how well that works, when/if it happens.

Dave Yeo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 8
  • -Receive: 93
  • Posts: 1216
    • View Profile
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2016, 05:50:41 am »
I have to agree, hate app stores. My favourite on Debian (and Debian based dists) was the old simple dselect, curses based but much like ANPM except it had categories, eg Internet, Games, Programming etc, which I guess ANPM could evolve to have if we ever have enough packages to need categories.
And of course the command line, especially once they came out with apt.

Alex Taylor

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 10
  • -Receive: 14
  • Posts: 224
    • View Profile
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2016, 07:48:28 am »
I have to agree, hate app stores. My favourite on Debian (and Debian based dists) was the old simple dselect, curses based but much like ANPM except it had categories, eg Internet, Games, Programming etc, which I guess ANPM could evolve to have if we ever have enough packages to need categories.
And of course the command line, especially once they came out with apt.

Categories are implemented at the package level.  ANPM does support categories, just not in quite the same was as most Linux package managers: the category is displayed in the list, and you can view packages for a specific category using the filter controls.

Right now there just aren't enough packages, as you say, to justify breaking out entirely separate views.  Even the most populous category at the moment probably has only eight or ten packages on offer; some may only have one or two.

I confess, I also designed it this way in part because I think breaking down the package list into physically separate category views adds too much clutter and confusion to the user interface.  It also makes browsing and scanning the available packages much more tedious, especially since there often seems to be little rhyme or reason in how package maintainers select a category.

Martin Iturbide

  • OS2World NewsMaster
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 264
  • -Receive: 50
  • Posts: 1755
  • Your Friend Wil Declares...
    • View Profile
    • Martin's Personal Blog
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2016, 03:12:18 pm »
Hi.

I think different on this topic. I'm against the "App Store" exclusively controlled by a single company and locked that you can not choose a different one, but not against the "App Store" concept. App Stores are an easy way to find and install software on a platform for the user. A user accessing ANPM for the first time does not even understand what to install or what software does what. (which it does not mean I'm against ANPM), but ANPM it is like a tool made for a person that used before and understand RPM/YUM.

I know it is hard to think different, but I think that having a new OS distro is not only having the same old OS/2 running on new hardware. We need to grow the user base instead of only thinking what it fits for me is fine.

But just in case it still think is more important to start the open source cloning of GPI, PM and CPI. I still think that we need to get rid of IBM old code to reduce the risk of be left high and dry just like IBM and Mensys did.

Regards


Note: I splitted the topic because of the feedback.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2016, 03:32:14 pm by Martin Iturbide »
Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.

Lewis Rosenthal

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 10
  • Posts: 58
    • View Profile
    • Tales from the Trenches of IT
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2016, 06:59:18 pm »
Sorry I missed this, Martin...

I think the concept you were originally trying to convey and the concept of an app store are slightly different.

If you'd like an app store on OS/2, you should stick with eCo Market from eCo Soft.

Now, what ANPM will become over time is a single point of entry for software management and updates. By integrating WarpIN support and support for local and remote caches of WarpIN archives, ANPM becomes the referee between RPM-deployed software and WarpIN-deployed software, minimizing conflicts and duplication.

So, even if you were to go "shopping" for an app in an app store on OS/2, you'd still need a method to install your download and ensure that it did not conflict with something else already installed, as well as a way to handle updates to that software just "purchased." This is ANPM's role.

An app store, OTOH, fills a different kind of niche, providing a more browser-like experience, allowing the shopper to see screenshots, read reviews, handle checkout, and ultimately, download purchased goods. Some of these cross boundaries and blur the lines, because they will maintain databases of purchased software, advise of available updates, and perhaps even handle the install, but they are always (or should always be) limited to the offerings in the store, and not meant to replace a system software manager.
Lewis
-------------------------------------------------------------
Lewis G Rosenthal, CNA, CLP, CLE, CWTS
Managing Member
Arca Noae, LLC                               www.arcanoae.com

Sergey Posokhov

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 6
  • Posts: 109
    • View Profile
    • OS/2 API Research
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2016, 12:18:03 pm »
Quote
eCo Market from eCo Soft...
Now in Google.

Jan-Erik Lärka

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 6
  • -Receive: 12
  • Posts: 159
    • View Profile
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2016, 09:29:57 am »
I'm fed up with searching for software everywhere, I want as many sources and formats in one convenient place with info, description etc. so I can try them out.

eCo Market is the tool that can evolve into what you ask for Martin with some adjustments.
It should switch to use one or more services/databases that list packages, software and tools (rpm/yum, eCSoft/2 etc.).
App stores provide more info than a container with package names, usually with info/a description and something like an Icon/image that associate the product so the user know what it is.
I've had a conversation about it and seen interest, but the developer need "encouragement" to rewrite it and adjust the current design to something more. Your input may therefore be important how it should evolve.

I understand that it would be very good to have all applications and all installations registered in one placed and handled by one software.
An app store shouldn't itself handle any installation, but rather hand that over to the actual installer(s), such as ANPM (YUM/RPM-based*), WarpIn etc.
Even plain .zip/.rar/.arj-packages may be of interest as seen with eCo Market.

For that we need a way to call the installers to actually install the requested package(s).
I requested a command line/other method to installation of a specific package in ANPM to just make it "the installer", but... for now an App Store can rely on YUM/RPM in the time being, until such features will be available just as WarpIn has to be the choice for .wpi packages, for now.
.exe-files should just be launched (after a virus scan?) and rexx scripts may handle other formats etc.


*) Doug Bissett: ANPM is nothing like an app store, it install things from a long list of package names.
One usually have to find documentation and install/update support libraries separately.
It will change as applications will be introduced into ANPM, I'm sure.

Regards,
//Jan-Erik

Doug Bissett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 38
  • Posts: 946
    • View Profile
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2016, 05:17:52 pm »
Quote
*) Doug Bissett: ANPM is nothing like an app store, it install things from a long list of package names.
One usually have to find documentation and install/update support libraries separately.
It will change as applications will be introduced into ANPM, I'm sure.

ANPM was never meant to be either an installer, or an app store. It is meant to make it easy to use RPM/YUM (now), and (eventually) WarpIn. RPM/YUM or WarpIn (including the EXE versions of WarpIn installers) do the install, and the package management on the user's system. 

Arca Noae does have an app store of sorts, where the user can find software https://www.arcanoae.com/shop/. There isn't much there yet, but a user can go to the web site, and find what is available. What more do you really need, or want (other than more stuff listed)? There is certainly no need for a program to do that, a web site is more than sufficient.

Jan-Erik Lärka

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 6
  • -Receive: 12
  • Posts: 159
    • View Profile
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2016, 07:11:24 pm »
True, ANPM is a front end to rpm/yum that iron out and handle the bumps.

If one want applications from other sources as well, not only from a vendor (group) or a small subset of... shareware, but also freeware and ?-ware.
eCSSoft/2 for example, list a variety of software with info not tied to a specific vendor or group, yet can provide data (yes, I've seen it) asked for in a consistent way.

That's why I asked for a command line parameter (as link) that ANPM would handle as yum://netlabs.org/repo/... or similar, but as you know from my last ... one would have to use something on the side for now as a web browser can't launch ANPM for such a yum/rpm-link.
But you're quite true there as well, one can very well browse such pages and download and install the WarpIn packages once one have Firefox, Arora or some other web browser with all libraries installed.

Regards,
//Jan-Erik

Doug Bissett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 38
  • Posts: 946
    • View Profile
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2016, 12:57:45 am »
Quote
a web browser can't launch ANPM for such a yum/rpm-link.

It probably can, if you add something to the Options-> Applications list, but ANPM would need to watch for parameters, and decide what to do with them. Currently. it does not do that (at least it is not documented). If you can add that as a Feature Request to the Arca Noae Bug Tracker (ANPM section after logging in to https://mantis.arcanoae.com/login_page.php), it would be a good addition. Let me know if you can't do it, and I will.

Quote
If one want applications from other sources as well, not only from a vendor (group) or a small subset of... shareware, but also freeware and ?-ware.

That is one of the main reasons why HOBBES (http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/) exists. Unfortunately, not everything gets posted there.

Quote
one can very well browse such pages and download and install the WarpIn packages once one have Firefox, Arora or some other web browser with all libraries installed.

Currently, that is a minor problem, since the OS usually includes a reasonably recent FF setup. However, it seems that those who do such things are planning to include FF (and probably SM and TB, when the time comes) in the YUM distribution channel. When (if) that happens, you will need to have RPM/YUM installed (with, or without, ANPM), to install FF. I am sure that ArcaOS will include enough smarts to get all of that done. Meanwhile, any browser, on any OS, should be able to get the ANPM installer, put it on a USB stick, and that will get RPM/YUM set up, and allow the user to work with it. Once FF is included with RPM/YUM, that should get things going. Until FF gets included in RPM/YUM, the user may need to download FF (either ZIP or WPI), and use that. Of course, they may also need WarpIn, or/or UNZIP.

Lewis Rosenthal

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 10
  • Posts: 58
    • View Profile
    • Tales from the Trenches of IT
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2016, 01:41:27 am »
Quote
a web browser can't launch ANPM for such a yum/rpm-link.

It probably can, if you add something to the Options-> Applications list, but ANPM would need to watch for parameters, and decide what to do with them.

I really thought we had this in the RFE list, and I distinctly recall submitting it myself (ability to accept command line arguments to install/remove/etc.), but I just spent a few moments looking and could not find it.

On openSUSE, there is the "one-click install" option for packages. A ymp file comes down, which is essentially xml. This is associated with the YaST installer, and the ymp includes the type of package to be installed, the source repository, etc. At the time of install, the user is queried as to whether he or she wants to permanently add the repository to the system or just use it for the given installation.

More on one-click install may be found here.

This would be my vote as to how to handle these things as an RFE for ANPM, so we would then parse the xml (which could be downloaded and saved or used to open the default application, supposedly configured as ANPM) and perform the requested actions.

Quote
I am sure that ArcaOS will include enough smarts to get all of that done. Meanwhile, any browser, on any OS, should be able to get the ANPM installer, put it on a USB stick, and that will get RPM/YUM set up, and allow the user to work with it. Once FF is included with RPM/YUM, that should get things going. Until FF gets included in RPM/YUM, the user may need to download FF (either ZIP or WPI), and use that. Of course, they may also need WarpIn, or/or UNZIP.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Doug.  :)

Indeed, we are planning to ship FF, TB, and SM in the distro, all (or none) available as installation choices (FF may be pushed by default; decisions, decisions...).

As for catalogs (or for those of you who prefer the King's English, "catalogues"), the new functionality in wic.exe allows for creating repositories of WarpIN archives, and theoretically, it should be possible for site maintainers to automate building their own WarpIN repo files, making installation/maintenance of WPI-packaged software as easy as RPM-managed software (via ANPM).

Zip/7z/xz/gzip/tar/etc. will always be difficult to manage, and I know of no package manager which handles such "loose" formats.

Of course, none of these things results in a true "app store" in the sense of a desktop application which pulls down package metadata, allows purchasing and installation, and essentially functions as a single-purpose web browser. I did some searching today while waiting for my lunch appointment to arrive, and could not come up with a single hit pertaining to the "rise of the app store on desktop operating systems," but my gut tells me that this all came about from M$' push to make everything a mobile device. Let's face it, managing software and comfortably browsing the web on a phone or a tablet is frustrating. Having an all-in-one "app" (because it's all about the apps!) to do all of that makes sense in that context. I just don't believe it makes the same sense on the desktop, but to each his own.

The Arca Noae store is getting bigger, a little at a time. If anyone knows of some good apps which we should add, please let us know, and we'll see about getting them added. We're also looking at ways to improve the shopping experience (no, I am not trying to hijack this thread - really!).
Lewis
-------------------------------------------------------------
Lewis G Rosenthal, CNA, CLP, CLE, CWTS
Managing Member
Arca Noae, LLC                               www.arcanoae.com

Jan-Erik Lärka

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 6
  • -Receive: 12
  • Posts: 159
    • View Profile
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2016, 08:04:22 am »
Quote
a web browser can't launch ANPM for such a yum/rpm-link.

It probably can, if you add something to the Options-> Applications list, but ANPM would need to watch for parameters, and decide what to do with them. Currently. it does not do that (at least it is not documented). If you can add that as a Feature Request to the Arca Noae Bug Tracker (ANPM section after logging in to https://mantis.arcanoae.com/login_page.php), it would be a good addition. Let me know if you can't do it, and I will.
Exactly, one can configure FF etc. to handle it, if ANPM would, but it's to no use unless ANPM, a script or something similar actually accept parameters. I'll post it as a feature request.

Quote
If one want applications from other sources as well, not only from a vendor (group) or a small subset of... shareware, but also freeware and ?-ware.

That is one of the main reasons why HOBBES (http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/) exists. Unfortunately, not everything gets posted there.
I've been told that hobbes contain to much old/obsolete stuff so it's out of the question to even be considered. If so, create a cleaned list and add it to an App Store. eCSSoft/2 on the other hand contain so much collected info that could be used more and it link to a variety of developers and sites.

Quote
one can very well browse such pages and download and install the WarpIn packages once one have Firefox, Arora or some other web browser with all libraries installed.
but not yum/rpm because of the above problem with links
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 08:06:48 am by Jan-Erik Lärka »

Doug Bissett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 38
  • Posts: 946
    • View Profile
Re: App Store Ranting
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2016, 09:14:28 pm »
Quote
I've been told that hobbes contain to much old/obsolete stuff so it's out of the question to even be considered.

That is one of the main advantages. It has the old, as well as the new, and it is all well organized. There is also a very good search engine for it. If you ignore HOBBES, you are ignoring the very best, and most complete, repository for OS/2 software. If a developer is not posting their work at HOBBES, complain to them. HOBBES has been the OS/2 "store" for a lot of years, and I see no reason to stop using it.

Quote
but not yum/rpm because of the above problem with links

I don't understand what your problem is. When you use any version of any browser, on any platform, to download the ANPM installer (it is WarpIn), the WarpIn installer (it is self installing), and Firefox, or Seamonkey, then make them available to OS/2 (you probably need a USB stick, formatted as FAT32), you can install WarpIn, then ANPM. ANPM will detect that RPM/YUM is not installed, and it will install it. If it is installed, but out of date, you may need to follow the instructions at https://www.arcanoae.com/wiki/anpm/ (page down a bit). Once ANPM gets everything up to date, and you install FF, or SM, the world is at your finger tips. ANPM will give you as much information about what the RPM packages contain as anything else can. I will admit that the information is somewhat limited, but that is a limitation of the RPM packaging system. I will also admit that RPM/YUM is a terrible way to do it, but that is what was chosen, so we are stuck with it. The alternative is to do it manually, and that is pretty well impossible. I guarantee that you will get some of it wrong, no matter how hard you try. You must remember that RPM packages contain more than just DLLs, there are also programs that a lot of software uses.