Author Topic: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?  (Read 14239 times)

André Heldoorn

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2017, 01:35:48 pm »
It really is of no interest whether DVD/CD drives are fitted as standard to new systems as I rarely purchase any pre-built system.

The fact that you rarely purchase any pre-built system is unrelated to the interest of all potential users. In general I'd recommend to not add too much irrelevant software to a CD (/DVD) anyway.

Compatibility is hardly an issue in the future. One may advocate that USB booting is a must-have, but that doesn't imply that USB booting will still exist in 2027. LPs are returning too, isn't it? Perhaps a bloody cloud (/SAAS) is today's modern answer. If someone claims that we now need USB booting instead of a DVD drive, then that's a description of today's choices. It doesn't predict 2027. Nor, more importantly, do we know that ArcaOS can still be installed on 2027's new hardware. We may switch to USB booting, but that's won't guarantee that you can buy 2027's hardware with USB and the baility to install 2017's ArcaOS. So, in other words, it has to work now. That won't exclude USB booting, but there's no reason to assume that USB booting will be the future. If it is the lasting future, then there's no reason to assume that you still can install ArcaOS by using the future's other hardware.

Do you know what the first tablet computer was with SSD, touchscreen, and so on? Answer: the very first IBM ThinkPad, the 700T.

So there's no reason to assume that DVD drives are drives of the past, because users want cheap, small and lightweighed hardware now. If 'now' predicts the future, then the first IBM ThinkPad was both right (now) and wrong (between 1992 and 2017). It has to work now, which won't exclude USB booting for computers without a CD (/DVD) drive.

Pete

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2017, 01:43:52 pm »
Hi Doug

My main use for CD media is making copies of CDs to play in my car CD player. I rarely download DVD images but if I do I need to be able to burn the images to DVD for playback in a DVD player. There is not a better way of creating CDs for playback in car or DVDs for playback in a DVD player. Come to think of it: did you mention that ArcaOS will probably be available as a downloadable DVD? - I would guess that a DVD burner and blank media is also required.

Last time I sourced an IDE DVD burner - about a year ago - it was around £22, the SATA version was £12  and, Yes, the SATA burners are still at that price and it seems there are still IDE burners from around the £22 mark. I am quite happy with a SATA burner  :-)

I suspect you are right about video recorders (for TV), that use DVD media. My current, now fairly elderly, TV DVD playback box is a combo PVR/DVD where TV programme recording is made to hard disk with the manual option of burning to DVD when recording is finished. I must admit to being fairly happy with that arrangement. A quick hunt for a replacement only reveals separate devices: a PVR for TV recording and a BluRay/DVD player for playback of existing media.

No doubt at some point in the not too distant future in car entertainment will change to using flash drives or similar - as long as the manufacturers do not insist on that awful mp3 computer noise format as the standard I can go with that. Just need a CD/DVD Player to rip tracks from then.

Anyway, we digress somewhat from the original thread.


Regards

Pete




André Heldoorn

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2017, 01:48:45 pm »
Maybe it can be good to discuss again what are the community favorite OS/2 applications.

About the only thing you can get rid of for sure are DATABASE.TXT's entries for outdated software and/or for users migrating from 1995's professional Windows 3.1 software to an OS/2 environment. An entry for modern browsers would make more sense. I do use it to install M$ Office 4.3 (or whatever) with updates to read newer M$ file formats, so don't DELTREE all Win-OS/2 software, but a true migration from DOS/Windows 3.1 to OS/2 plays no role anymore. Nobody will expect that Adobe PhotoShop v0.01 will still work, without having to find out what the best settings would be. You won't sell copies of ArcaOS anymore by telling users that it's easy to migrate their software to OS/2.

André Heldoorn

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2017, 02:25:10 pm »
For best application compatibilty (and perhaps also for mentioned gaming stuff) you can not move further than i865-based mainboard with one or two ISA-slots and appropriate audio adapters.

FTR: you could be able to install a Crystal ISA sound adapter in a proper docking station, of some notebooks which have no own internal ISA-slot.

But the niche market target remains a reasonably easy solution. Without telling the owner of Windows 7, an old computer and retro DOS games to buy a different computer, a docking station, another operating system, and some old sound adapter. DOSBox is the slower competition. But rare newbies won't have to visit ebay.de to be able to use DOSBox, and DOSBox isn't mute.

Please note that I don't know how hard it would be to re-introduce DOS sound for specific common sound adapters. I'm pointing out a niche market, without expecting support for all sound adapters. Better excellent support for a few, than bad (or no) support for all. To me it sounds (yeezzz...) like a quick-win.

Andreas Kohl

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #34 on: March 09, 2017, 02:42:22 pm »
Maybe it can be good to discuss again what are the community favorite OS/2 applications.

About the only thing you can get rid of for sure are DATABASE.TXT's entries for outdated software and/or for users migrating from 1995's professional Windows 3.1 software to an OS/2 environment.

DATABASE.TXT, DATABASE.DAT, DBTAGS.DAT etc. need definitely an huge update. It's not only for 16-bit DOS, Windows and OS/2 applications. But also for migration of common OS/2 32 bit applications with ColorWorks and Partition Magic the latest entries. As long you're not running a SDM it will be quite useful.

Quote
An entry for modern browsers would make more sense. I do use it to install M$ Office 4.3 (or whatever) with updates to read newer M$ file formats, so don't DELTREE all Win-OS/2 software, but a true migration from DOS/Windows 3.1 to OS/2 plays no role anymore.
There are still systems that ship with an installed DOS by default from major vendors - no reason for burning bridges.

Quote
Nobody will expect that Adobe PhotoShop v0.01 will still work, without having to find out what the best settings would be. You won't sell copies of ArcaOS anymore by telling users that it's easy to migrate their software to OS/2.
Why not, but in this particular case you'll need a Macintosh emulation. More useful would be an entry for Acrobat Reader Search (for Windows 3.1). The only working solution under OS/2 for using PDF indices, to give a real-world example.

From the already published information it becomes clear that ArcaOS will not be a full-function OS. Without any hardware certification or testing procedures I cannot imagine big demand even from specialised niche market segments. I don't want to compare the whole venture with the OpenVMS porting to x64 (https://www.vmssoftware.com/products_roadmap.html) ...

Alex Taylor

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2017, 02:38:07 am »
With booting from USB I meant "USB Stick", if that is not possible with ArcaOS5 there is no improvement since the last 9 years. You must be joking - or I totally misunderstand what you have written

As Lewis reported at Warpstock, this is definitely on Arca Noae's list. As he also said, not everything on the list is guaranteed to make it into the first GA release.  It's unknown at present whether or not this particular item will make it.

It's true, there are procedures to make booting from USB stick work. However, these procedures are quite tricky to abstract sufficiently that a general 'plug and play' solution can be implemented. 

Getting something to work on my system is one thing. Arranging things so that it will work on any system (without extensive system-specific fiddling) is something else. It's things like this which make the seemingly-simple because quite complicated to achieve.


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- well, there is no Need to discuss the "Various important fixes" to the OS - as nobody knows what one should talk about -> because it is that "TOP SECRET"! I am not expecting miracles, I am just hoping for some of the things that have been mentioned in the presentations - in fact that hopes are all gone.

Nothing about ArcaOS is TOP SECRET. I have no idea where you got that notion from. Lewis and David both gave fairly detailed roadmap presentations at both Warpstock events last year. If you want more recent information from Arca Noae, by all means ask them. They have a contact email address.

I'd say the reason you're not getting a great deal of concrete information from threads like this is that this is simply the wrong place to ask. Most of the people here don't have exact answers, and those that do know more don't feel it's their place to make announcements on Arca Noae's behalf.

Quote
Mensys wasted so much time they invested into a new installer - and forgot to update the System. ArcaOS5 now is coming with a new installers and updated Drivers, but there is no Support for "new" Hardware classes. One can find reasons on and on, but in the end reagrading Sound, WLAN and SNAP there are no News.

You can probably assume that if there have been no announcements about new device support from Arca Noae, then there is nothing concrete to announce at the present time - not that things are being kept "secret".

Alex Taylor

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2017, 02:44:43 am »
Regarding DOS/Win: If you installed from an eCS CD then you certainly got DOS/Win support installed and configured regardless of whether you selected it or not. You would have needed to work through the config.sys removing all the unwanted DOS/Win lines and deleting the \os2\mdos directory.

Hopefully ArcaOS will not have that screwup.

I know you don't like this, but this is how OS/2 (since MCP2) installs itself. If you select no DOS support, the full MDOS (with configurable memory settings, user tools, etc.) will not be installed, but a minimal DOS VDM engine will always be installed. Certain core OS/2 components (I believe GRADD and possibly some other things) simply require VDM support, so it must always be available to the system. The IBM install program (SEINST) enforces this and it cannot be disabled.

Pete

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2017, 02:59:39 am »
Hi Alex

For years I have been told "Certain core OS/2 components simply require VDM support, so it must always be available to the system." or very similar.

Sorry, I do not believe it as I have been running eCS since 1.2 with no DOS/Win16 support available at all. The first thing I do after an eCS install is to remove all DOS/Win16 related config.sys statements - especially the double entries - and delete the \os2\mdos directory.

Possibly GRADD does require VDM support; no idea as I do not use it.

Seems nothing else needs VDM support though... unless it is some other not-used software.

Anyone else have any idea what actually needs VDM support?


Regards

Pete



Dave Yeo

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2017, 05:57:42 am »
What video driver are you using? Here I've always had a VDM process (currently #36) since I first switched to SNAP. What exactly it does, I'm not sure but it does seem to correlate to using GRADD based drivers.

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2017, 08:47:33 am »
With booting from USB I meant "USB Stick", if that is not possible with ArcaOS5 there is no improvement since the last 9 years. You must be joking - or I totally misunderstand what you have written

As Lewis reported at Warpstock, this is definitely on Arca Noae's list. As he also said, not everything on the list is guaranteed to make it into the first GA release.  It's unknown at present whether or not this particular item will make it.

It's true, there are procedures to make booting from USB stick work. However, these procedures are quite tricky to abstract sufficiently that a general 'plug and play' solution can be implemented. 

Getting something to work on my system is one thing. Arranging things so that it will work on any system (without extensive system-specific fiddling) is something else. It's things like this which make the seemingly-simple because quite complicated to achieve.

At OS/2 User Meeting 2013 we had a guy attending, who showed a bootable OS/2 Warp 4 (4.52) Stick with that programs like the OS/2 commander and others already worked.

DFSEE has a bootable USB Stick for years, that boots on almost any machine that allows booting from USB. I think FreeDOS is used for this. If one would Combine this stick - that is fully capable of partioning a media and so on - with a set of clones on a persistant area on the same stick, I would see no reason why this should not work. Once the choosen clone starts for the first time, it can install all the necessary rest of the needed stuff from the stick or via ANPM. That way would avoid finding a solution for OS/2 booting from USB itself. Yes, I know, this is not the way AN goes and that's OK.

Nothing about ArcaOS is TOP SECRET. I have no idea where you got that notion from. Lewis and David both gave fairly detailed roadmap presentations at both Warpstock events last year. If you want more recent information from Arca Noae, by all means ask them. They have a contact email address.

I'd say the reason you're not getting a great deal of concrete information from threads like this is that this is simply the wrong place to ask. Most of the people here don't have exact answers, and those that do know more don't feel it's their place to make announcements on Arca Noae's behalf.

Well, I repeat myself just to make it clear: the reason for this can be seen in another thread here I started some time ago. I thought it might be of Interest for not only me but a lot of users what is going on during beta stage. For this reason I decided not to contact AN as I know the have no time for this and they already said before that they have no time to Monitor the Forum. So I thought, instead of having a lot of People bothering AN with mails a Forum is a good place to ask about such a Thing and discuss it. In that thread some others already jumped in with some additional questions - that seemed to me to be the Logical and normal way of using a Forum. And another fine thing on a Forum is, that it is normaly also allowed to speculate a bit or to "dream" or to just ask other users what experiences they have.

In Addition I Point to your own Statement there http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1291.msg12109.html#msg12109 that I might have misunderstand "closed beta test".

Anyway, it does not make sence to talk about this anymore as I did not want to persuade anyone about something, I just would have liked to have some easy Information about wether there are three drivers in the beta testing or not, and in the end I got it. Thank you very much!

OS4User

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2017, 03:15:30 pm »
Anyone else have any idea what actually needs VDM support?

Kernel provides two kinds of VDMs: MiniVDM and "regular" VDM.

MiniVDMs is used for: calling Int10 and int13 from a protected mode.

What ppl usually can see in a process list is a MiniVDM for Int10,  -  video driver uses it  for communicating with video BIOS.

I have never seen MiniVDM for int13.

Regular VDM is used for running  dos/win sessions. To run dos/win sessions it is necessary to set PROTECTONLY=no  and to load the list of DEVICE=C:\OS2\MDOS\*.sys

MiniVDM is working  even with PROTECTONLY=yes and no MDOS drivers installed.

Lars

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2017, 03:46:34 pm »
DANIS506.ADD and also latest IBM1S506.ADD require a MiniVDM for int13. That's because they use the real mode int13 service for querying the physical disk geometry. Apparently there is no easy way to get to this Information in any other way.
There is a DevHelp to use int13 Support. I seem to remember that if you call that DevHelp, then the MiniVDM for int13 will be started automatically if it is not already running.

Pete

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2017, 04:05:25 pm »
Hi All

I'm using SNAP (currently eCS version). So I should have a VDM process running somewhere? - nothing in the eComCenter (aka WarpCenter) dropdown process list.

Using TOP I see a VDM @38, Parent PID:36 \os2\pmshell.exe, State: Blocked, which is shown as a DOS VDM when I look at Process Details. Looking at Min/Max use this item shows 0 for Total CPU, 0 for CPU%, 0 for Avg%.

Presumably "Blocked" means that either the VDM cannot be started or is in use?

Maybe the above is 1 of the miniVDMs referred to by OS4User? - but I cannot see any IRQ attached to this VDM. How do I check if it is using an IRQ?


Lars informs us that a minivDM is required for the ibm1s506/ danis506.add driver. While I am not using either the ibm or danis driver on this system I do have danis506.addt in use on an older system - without any DOS/Win16 support installed.

Either way it seems that DOS/Win16 support is not required for either of the miniVDMs  and does not need to be installed.


Regards

Pete






Andreas Kohl

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2017, 05:20:20 pm »
Either way it seems that DOS/Win16 support is not required for either of the miniVDMs  and does not need to be installed.
No reason for misdiagnosing. For everybody who only wants to run the base operating system and nothing else (effectively nobody) that could work. There are enough features or installation procedures that rely on VDM support activated. The whole networking stuff (LAN Server etc.) ...

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2017, 05:48:26 pm »
Hi

I don't know why we are discussing about Win16  :)  but if you want something similar to Win16 support, but an alternative of having Win16 binaries on DosBox, you need to follow the work and support this guy: https://hackernoon.com/@CantabileApp

It is not ready yet, and  the final goal it is not interesting (for me) , but I think it is a intriguing project. 

Regards
Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.