Author Topic: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive  (Read 841 times)

Rick C. Hodgin

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Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« on: May 30, 2017, 05:29:41 pm »
I have a notebook computer I was able to install a separate hard drive into and get Arca OS to install.  I then took the hard drive out and put my original back in, and plugged in a USB adapter to my internal hard drive.  It boots from BIOS, and begins to load several drivers, but then comes up with a halt message.

I'm wondering if there is USB hard drive support for booting?  Maybe I need to move a driver up in the stack?

And if not, I'm wondering if I could help add that feature to OS/2?  I would see it as desirable to be able to have my OS/2 install on a portable hard drive I can use when needed, since it won't install on my > 512 GB main hard drive in the notebook.

Thank you,
Rick C. Hodgin



Dave Yeo

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Re: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2017, 05:56:46 pm »
USB booting was planned for ArcaOS 5.0 but wasn't completed and it is hoped to be in 5.1.
The problem is loading the USB drivers at the right time as far as I know and others have played with it as well.

Neil Waldhauer

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Re: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2017, 08:15:14 pm »
Join up at NetLabs.

view the list of projects here:
http://svn.netlabs.org/

USB is on the list. Two (or maybe more) people are already there doing work.
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Remy

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Re: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2017, 09:37:19 pm »
Before any other develoment, It would be nice ArcaOS could be installed on existing desktop HW i7 CPU ( 2 tickets open ) !
Always not possible to install it yet ....   >:(

Rick C. Hodgin

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Re: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017, 09:46:11 pm »
Join up at NetLabs.

view the list of projects here:
http://svn.netlabs.org/

USB is on the list. Two (or maybe more) people are already there doing work.

How do you join up at NetLabs?

Is it just a matter of joining the site?  And what if I'm a lunatic and code like a madman?  Surely there must be some type of governance or supervising committee which examines my code contributions before introducing them into the mainline?  Plus, I'll need some help getting started.  I'm no slouch, but I can't often show up to other developer's code bases and pick everything up and just run.  It takes my brain some time to translate their thinking to my thinking.

Thank you,
Rick C. Hodgin
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 11:11:24 pm by Rick C. Hodgin »

Rich Walsh

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Re: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2017, 01:04:37 am »
How do you join up at NetLabs? Is it just a matter of joining the site?

Have you looked at that project (http://trac.netlabs.org/usb)? It's all laid out there.

Quote
And what if I'm a lunatic and code like a madman?  Surely there must be some type of governance or supervising committee which examines my code contributions before introducing them into the mainline?

Just because you have read access doesn't mean you can commit anything. All of the active projects (a rather small subset of the available projects) have maintainers who act as gatekeepers. I happen to have write access for one of the larger projects (XWP), and let me assure you, your good intentions alone would not be enough to persuade me to commit your contribution - it would have to meet my standards. I don't know if other maintainers are as persnickety as I am - but I would hope so.

USB, however, is a special case: unlike almost all of the other projects, it is closed source. You will have to contact one of the two maintainers to gain access.

Rick C. Hodgin

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Re: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2017, 04:18:21 am »
Have you looked at that project (http://trac.netlabs.org/usb)? It's all laid out there.

I did look there, but I didn't see it.  I didn't see it this time either until I went back a second pass looking for it based on your prompting.  Now I see it. :-)

Quote from: Rich Walsh
Just because you have read access doesn't mean you can commit anything. All of the active projects (a rather small subset of the available projects) have maintainers who act as gatekeepers. I happen to have write access for one of the larger projects (XWP), and let me assure you, your good intentions alone would not be enough to persuade me to commit your contribution - it would have to meet my standards. I don't know if other maintainers are as persnickety as I am - but I would hope so.

USB, however, is a special case: unlike almost all of the other projects, it is closed source. You will have to contact one of the two maintainers to gain access.

I may put that off then.  I believe in contributing positively to the community, and not just by giving them binaries for free, but by giving them the fruits of my knowledge and skills through source code they can download and extend / modify if need be.  It's people helping people, giving someone else a new raw material they can receive and alter as needed.  I think these things are very important.

Thank you,
Rick C. Hodgin

Rich Walsh

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Re: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2017, 06:46:24 am »
I believe in contributing positively to the community, and not just by giving them binaries for free, but by giving them the fruits of my knowledge and skills through source code they can download and extend / modify if need be.  It's people helping people, giving someone else a new raw material they can receive and alter as needed.  I think these things are very important.

This is all very noble, I suppose, but not something that addresses the genuine needs of "the community" as it is today. There are vanishingly few competent OS/2 developers any more, and those who remain are unlikely to need or want yet another toolkit or library. Repositories such as Hobbes and Netlabs are littered with this stuff - virtually all of which goes unused.

Rather, what the community at large really needs are well crafted applications targeted at the end-user (yes, "free binaries"). I'm talking about competently executed, fairly bug-free, attractive, easy to use software products - not just a mess of code you throw over the fence and hope someone can use and/or fix.

As an example: in another thread, someone suggested porting libmtp. That's all very nice, but why bother if there's nothing that can make use of it? OTOH, porting libmtp as part of a larger project to create an attractive filemanager-like GUI for accessing the contents of your Android phone would be hugely appreciated because there's nothing out there like that right now.

Please understand that I don't want to discourage you from sharing "the fruits of [your] knowledge and skills" - we need all the assistance we can get. It's just that your efforts will bring the greatest benefits to the community and the greatest psychic rewards to you if they're aligned with the real needs of said community.

Rick C. Hodgin

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Re: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2017, 12:22:21 pm »
Please understand that I don't want to discourage you from sharing "the fruits of [your] knowledge and skills" - we need all the assistance we can get. It's just that your efforts will bring the greatest benefits to the community and the greatest psychic rewards to you if they're aligned with the real needs of said community.

What's involved in writing an open source USB system from scratch?  I have a USB book here from the late 90s, early 00s.  I'll take a look at it.

Thank you,
Rick C. Hodgin

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2017, 01:50:29 pm »
Hi Rick

If you need examples of open source OS/2 drivers I have them collected on github starting with "DRV-", there is no USB drivers there, but maybe some other can help for inspiration :)
Here it is the link: https://github.com/OS2World?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=DRV-&type=&language=

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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Rick C. Hodgin

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Re: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2017, 05:45:30 pm »
What's involved in writing an open source USB system from scratch?  I have a USB book here from the late 90s, early 00s.  I'll take a look at it.

I began looking through the book at lunch.  It describes the overall operation in hardware up through USB 1.0.  It is comprised of a root hub conducting transactions in both directions throughout the entire USB system.  There are up to 127 devices individually identified, and their transactions take place as part of 1ms interval bursts.

I'll keep reading.

Thank you,
Rick C. Hodgin

Rick C. Hodgin

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Re: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2017, 04:46:34 pm »
I was able to find some additional help from Benjamin Lunt on alt.os.development.  He has written full USB stacks up through modern implementations and standards.  He has written a book about it, and I was able to get a copy of that book yesterday.

Overall it's not difficult to understand.  Some aspects of the standard are difficult to code for, but the newer components are much simpler than the older ones he says.

I am going to look at spending some time trying to get this to work properly in a DOS environment on a native machine.  If I can get the protocols working properly, then I would be able to port it to OS/2 as an open source public domain source code base.

Thank you,
Rick C. Hodgin

Rick C. Hodgin

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Re: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2017, 06:27:34 pm »
This book he's got has everything necessary for a complete USB stack.  It has even a FreeDOS disk image with a working example, and all associated source code.

If an open source USB stack doesn't exist in OS/2 already, I believe I could create one.  It would allow us to implement a host of custom USB extensions and write all sorts of drivers for various hardware.

Thank you,
Rick C. Hodgin

Doug Bissett

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Re: Arca OS boot from an external USB hard drive
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2017, 09:05:27 pm »
USB is a complete kludge, and the biggest problem is that nobody ever followed the rules (such as they were). When USB first appeared, IBM went to great pains to follow the hardware, and software, rules, exactly. About 20% of existing USB devices worked with it. After investigating, they found out that Microsoft was writing almost all of the drivers (they also wrote the rules), but they simply opened up the specs to make all devices work (the timing was opened up by about 30% in both hardware, and software).  Even then, not all hardware would work, and Microsoft wouldn't tell anybody else what they did. USB 2.0 showed up, and the rules were rewritten (mostly by Microsoft), and then they again ignored the rules. I have heard that the rules for USB 3.0 were written by Intel, and they are much easier to understand, and follow.

Quote
If an open source USB stack doesn't exist in OS/2 already, I believe I could create one.

The source sort of exists, but it is encumbered by the rules of the IBM drivers. Probably best that you don't get involved with that, if you can make an open source version. I do know that those who are working on USB drivers are tied up in knots, trying to get USB 1.x and 2.0, to work properly. AFAIK, there has been no attempt to make USB 3.x work.