Author Topic: Oddities with Youtube.  (Read 2990 times)

Dave Yeo

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2017, 01:42:27 am »
No(t yet), but I'll see what I can do...

</silence>
My area of expertise: nothing.

Ignoring the additional requirement of the archiver, the name of their file is ... firefox-debuginfo-45.9.0-2.oc00.pentium4.7z.
<silence>

That's weird. Looking at about:buildconfig, they targeted i686 (needed for some atomic instructions, the -march parameter to GCC). Unless you have a different version of mine, an RPM. Check the URL about:buildconfig.
Wish they'd just include the XQS files rather then the huge dbg files.
Unluckily, we stuck having to follow upstream, so it is not Bitwise trying to break old computers, at that previous to 45 they targeted i486 but the build failed with 45 until they upped it to i686, Note I moved to i686 back in the 10ESR days and never had any complaints. Currently Mozilla requires SSE2 support and has since just after 52ESR.
As for SeaMonkey, did you try disabling add-ons? Some, especially chatzilla, cause high CPU usage.
The good news is that dmik is finally getting the tests working and running so hopefully we'll get more stable browser.

André Heldoorn

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2017, 03:53:31 am »
That's weird. Looking at about:buildconfig, they targeted i686 (needed for some atomic instructions, the -march parameter to GCC). Unless you have a different version of mine, an RPM. Check the URL about:buildconfig.

</silence>
Well, the name of a *pentium4* file is just a name. A remaining (Pentium 4-) install of the same FF 45.9.0-2, with the same profile, reports: target i386-pc-os2-emx, -march=pentium4.

Illegal instruction, *pentium4* DBG files, -march=pentium4: no typo. Duh...

Quote
As for SeaMonkey, did you try disabling add-ons? Some, especially chatzilla, cause high CPU usage.

It's probably that VSYNC'ish (the worst of both worlds) bug, causes a 100% CPU load while browsing about:blank, becomes a honest ~95% CPU load when a faster T42 is used, and becomes 20%'ish of one of ones multiple cores. So it qualifies as broken.

SM is the most important browser over here. I don't really use FF. The version of FF>=SM. If FF is stable, then I'll upgrade to the matching version of SM too. Normally I would not have downgraded FF and wait for a new version, but installing Pentium 4 OS/2 software has no use at all.

A Pentium III's FF 45.5.0 is not 100% useless. Some add-ons/plug-ins/extensions require such a version. It will take a long while, but after several minutes you should be able to download an on-topicv Youtube video, which wasn't possible with FF38/SM2.35 tools anymore.

Quote
The good news is that dmik is finally getting the tests working and running so hopefully we'll get more stable browser.

Certainly not "we" anymore!

I'm not one of the happy few, which they are targeting by explicit and implicit requirements, based on whatever they are using (including eCS 2.x DE/EN or AOS EN). The bad news is that not everyone shares your standards. They have the freedom of policy to use e.g. -march=pentium4, which is also a great way to reduce the size of the OS/2 community while pretending to write a "FF for OS/2".

There's no need to guess, but maybe a Pentium 4-target was their way to try to solve 0.001% of the "performance issues", which could be the same issue as my 95%-100% CPU load. With such a CPU load no version of FF45 should pass a test.

FWIW, FF 48.0.2 works quite fine with the Pentium III CPU in question. The last non-ESR version of FF which supports a Pentium III. So any performance issue is OS/2 specific. As such the hardware isn't the problem, and OS/2 demands less resources than WinXP.
<silence>

Dave Yeo

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2017, 05:10:36 am »
Strange that they uploaded the P4 version. As I said, the version I'm running, downloaded from Arca Noae's experimental RPM repository is i686, like all my other RPMs. Unluckily the Arca Noae repository isn't publicly available. I guess have to wait until the build is good enough to post. If I had the bandwidth, I'd post a build.
At least we know why it is crashing :)
As for SeaMonkey, just tested on my T42. Displaying about:addons, with Chatzilla enabled, 90%+ CPU usage. With Chatzilla disabled, 1.2% with the odd peak at 6%. Try it. It does use quite a bit of CPU loading a page but is quite usable.

André Heldoorn

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2017, 04:20:05 pm »
Displaying about:addons, with Chatzilla enabled, 90%+ CPU usage. With Chatzilla disabled, 1.2% with the odd peak at 6%. Try it. It does use quite a bit of CPU loading a page but is quite usable.

</silence>
No need to upload a i686 copy of FF, because it probably still won't work normally. YMMV, but FF38/SM 2.35 is the last version which works unconditionally.

I've tried SM 2.42 (R2) again. Here the variable magic word isn't ChatZilla. It's Adblock Plus (2.8.2, for FF50-).

The CPU load of a slower Pentium 4 desktop often is less than 1% while browsing about:blank. Unfortunately the bad news is that the next game is guessing a frame rate. Any of 6000, 8000, 10240, 12000 and 14000 results in a hanging session (the C-A-D escape always works), a system which isn't responsive, no cursor, or the extremely slow cursor while typing. As if the CPU load is 100%+, while the system displays a CPU load of 0.4%.

After restoring SM 2.35 and the 2.35 profile its cursor was gone too, so maybe one of the number guessing game rounds failed due to that issue too. With a frame rate setting of 10240 browsing worked fine, but typing didn't.

If VSYNC is the worst of both worlds, by using a slowest rate to obtain a smooth animation, then isn't OS/2 too fast and stable for VSYNC anyway? After all we don't have an OS which halts the browser for several minutes because of some update process, virus scan, unsolicited defrag, and so on. This may be bogus, but I can imagine that VSYNC/2 would execute NOPs like there's no tomorrow, to end up with the worst, but indeed constant, animation speed of both worlds.
<silence>

Andy Willis

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2017, 12:59:16 am »

The CPU load of a slower Pentium 4 desktop often is less than 1% while browsing about:blank. Unfortunately the bad news is that the next game is guessing a frame rate. Any of 6000, 8000, 10240, 12000 and 14000 results in a hanging session (the C-A-D escape always works), a system which isn't responsive, no cursor, or the extremely slow cursor while typing. As if the CPU load is 100%+, while the system displays a CPU load of 0.4%.


I have found the best frame rate to be 59 or 60.

Dave Yeo

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2017, 01:38:42 am »

The CPU load of a slower Pentium 4 desktop often is less than 1% while browsing about:blank. Unfortunately the bad news is that the next game is guessing a frame rate. Any of 6000, 8000, 10240, 12000 and 14000 results in a hanging session (the C-A-D escape always works), a system which isn't responsive, no cursor, or the extremely slow cursor while typing. As if the CPU load is 100%+, while the system displays a CPU load of 0.4%.


It really depends on hardware, though in theory 50-60 should be perfect (does Europe use 50 or 60 hz refresh?)  From what I understand, it was a bad choice on Mozilla's part to use it, even on systems that can read the vsync signal.

I have found the best frame rate to be 59 or 60.

André Heldoorn

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2017, 10:05:22 am »
</silence>
Basicly low frame rate settings of -1, 59, 60, the screen's 75 or 750 (with restarts between attempts) result in not seeing a blinking cursor (URL bar, entry fields of websites) anymore, with an acceptable, normal CPU load. No blinking cursor includes slow screen updates while typing, so "you can type faster than a computer can keep up with".

The default setting of 0 results in a responsive 100% CPU load. I didn't try it that long, but the expected result (if FF45 was anything to go by) is that after a while the system could stop being responsive.

In all cases disabling an add-on (/plug-in / extension / ...) was required to normalize the CPU usage. As such this is acceptable, because here it's Adblock Plus (nice-to-have). I also disbled other add-ons, like ChatZilla.

After the tests I've restored SM 2.35 again, to return to a blinking cursor and a normal, stable CPU load. No blinking cursor is the least worst result of settings <> 0. I only tested the browser component of SM 2.42 R2.
<silence>

André Heldoorn

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2017, 11:53:03 am »
From what I understand, it was a bad choice on Mozilla's part to use it, even on systems that can read the vsync signal.

</silence>
Sure. At least one of the results of the theory of this concept is that several people in our niche market still seem to be using SM 2.35 or FF 38, and have stopped trying to use Mozilla's latest available product for their OS. Scores update: animated dancing bears +1, users -1.
<silence>

guzzi

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2017, 09:16:00 pm »

</silence>
Sure. At least one of the results of the theory of this concept is that several people in our niche market still seem to be using SM 2.35 or FF 38, and have stopped trying to use Mozilla's latest available product for their OS. Scores update: animated dancing bears +1, users -1.
<silence>

I have an old machine that not even Mosaic will install on. I wholly agree with you that all new software should be fully backwards compatible with older hardware. Any suggestions for a browser that will still run on this thing?

Andi B.

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2017, 11:24:44 am »

André Heldoorn

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2017, 02:02:50 pm »
I have an old machine that not even Mosaic will install on. I wholly agree with you that all new software should be fully backwards compatible with older hardware.

Both troll Andi B. and our new comedian haven't fully understood what P6+ means, which happens to be used by the developer of my OS/2 browser, nor that I don't mind dmik producing a product for an even smaller community. A freedom of choice.

My OS has a browser, which isn't FF. My new hardware has no OS, which won't be Andi's DE nor EN.

I do hope that even the boys can try to understand that requiring new hardware, on top of many other implied requirements, without a need to do so, is a great way to reduce the size of a community. A possible goals of your trolls, isn't it? Or just a selfish goal of you, presumably one of the happy few. For one Andi is, eCS 2.x is available in his native language. Good for you. Unlike you, I tend to not exclude over 50% of the user base.

Oh, if you can be arsed to do so: can you please provide a full quote which confirms what would be, according to you, my opinion that the FF for "OS/2" browser should support all old hardware, including but not limited the old hardware of our comedian or e.g. sa 80386? IRL I did advocate the upgrade to a P6 target, albeit ignorent, biased or selfish people and trolls tend to ignore such an annoying little factoid. You're trying to attack the upgrader, again, by making up the opinion of the upgrader. At least somone liked the entertainment. Go figure...

Andi B.

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OT - Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2017, 05:01:46 pm »
Both troll Andi B. and our new comedian haven't fully understood what P6+ means, which happens to be used by the developer of my OS/2 browser, nor that I don't mind dmik producing a product for an even smaller community. A freedom of choice.

My OS has a browser, which isn't FF. My new hardware has no OS, which won't be Andi's DE nor EN. ......
Honestly I do not understand most of your writing here. Including your repeatedly used 'silence'. I really think you're not human but some kind of (badly programmed) AI. Only here to spam this forum with your mostly unrelated junk to annoy the last remaining OS/2 users.

If I'm wrong and you're a human then please try a better translation machine. Focus on topic and use short sentences with simple words. And take a snuff of humor next time before replying.



Ian Manners

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2017, 01:09:14 pm »
Quote
I really think you're not human but some kind of (badly programmed) AI. Only here to spam this forum with your mostly unrelated junk to annoy the last remaining OS/2 users.

We do not discriminate here, not as far as I've aware, so even badly programmed machines are welcome :)

Though it would be nice to confine unrelated junk to the relevant forum.
Cheers
Ian B Manners

Dariusz Piatkowski

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2017, 05:21:58 pm »
...and back to the previously scheduled program...LOL

...That's weird. Looking at about:buildconfig, they targeted i686 (needed for some atomic instructions, the -march parameter to GCC). Unless you have a different version of mine, an RPM. Check the URL about:buildconfig....

Dave,

You hit this one right on the nose. I am currently running the officially available 45.9.0 build of FF, that's the firefox-45.9.0-2.oc00.pentium4.7z file. But that release is indeed targeted at pentium4 architecture. Subsequently, on my machine (which is the Phenom II X6 CPU) I am unable to play simple YouTube videos unless I install the H264 add-on.

This NEW YouTube behaviour is anylike like what I've seen in the previous 45.5.x test builds and bothered me since the 45.9 GA drop...so I went back to my latest beta build installed version, kicked it off and indeed, that build has the i686 target, which jives with what you stated about the upstream stuff. Indeed, using that beta build I can play whatever YouTube videos I want without the use of the H264 add-on.

Sooo.....that begs the question: why the heck release a Pentium4 target GA when all the testing was previously done using i686 builds???? Ugghhhh????

Sorry, maybe that was just a simple build/config mistake, but my God, what a nightmare it is trying to follow the thread through, sort of like Theseus in the Labyrinth looking to slay the Minotaur.

Is there not a i686 target built 45.9 GA release of Firefox anywhere?

Dave Yeo

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Re: Oddities with Youtube.
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2017, 06:55:04 pm »
Well, I have firefox-45.9.0-2.oc00.i686.rpm, which is targeted at the i686.  Unluckily it is not yet ready for wide deployment for a couple of reasons. Where to put the icons, and which icons to have. The need to move some stuff from netlabs exp to rel such as libcx and now dmik is working like mad to get the test suite to run so he can search for the causes of instability. He's having problems with the tool chain right now.
I'd assume that both i686 and pentium4 rpms were built and for some reason, only the pentium4 rpm was zipped up and released as a test version.

About architectures, or at least my understanding. There's two parameters that can be passed to GCC to control what CPU we target.
 -march, which controls the actual instruction set. Targeting the Pentium 4 gives various extra instructions over the i686 such as MMX, SSE and SSE2 and perhaps others. Should benefit all modern CPU's but will sigill (unsupported instruction) on older CPU's
-mtune, which controls the instruction ordering. Most CPU's are fairly happy with the i686 ordering as even on your Phenom II, it should be close to optimum or at least good enough. Then there's the Pentium 4, which liked completely different ordering, ordering that are not optimum for most CPU's due to the P4 using such a different architecture. I'd guess if you look, your Firefox uses something like -mtune=pentium4.
I usually build with -mtune=generic, which should be a good compromise for whichever CPU's were common when the version of GCC we're using was released.
Seems your CPU doesn't like the P4 instruction ordering.