Author Topic: Is eComStation DEAD?  (Read 95707 times)

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2014, 10:34:08 pm »
Martin says some new platform even has TCP/IP.  Great, but OS/2 / eCS has a lot more.

Hi Erick. My comment was to point out that it is possible to make an open source operating system, and that even the small ones (like baremetal) are in the road of open development. Just to point out that an assembly made open source OS is making progress and that it is possible for us to also start replacing the close source components of the OS. I didn't tried baremetal, it was just some news.

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eirik

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2014, 09:02:43 am »
Hi Martin,

open source is great: in times when things go well, many contribute (and things go even better).  But the truth is that  in the long haul (and the nitty-gritty of tedious work is required), someone must be paid to do the work.  Let us look to Linux and Android. Linux is mostly still run on a voluntary basis, but with important commercial partners/off springs like Suse, RedHat and Mandrake, that all have helped advance Linux.  For Android it is even more clear - Android had not been where it currently is without the vast resources put in by Google.  The Android business model is a bit different from that of Linux -- the "economics" of Android is based on making other software (like Chrome) more palatable, and by lowering costs to consumers for buying Android devices, which in turn increases traffic, including the use of Google's services.

eCS is in a different situation.  There are probably less than 100 K private eCS users left in the world.  Open source routes, like those of Linux or Android, are unlikely to create the revenues needed to fund the boring polishing work (I assume many computer interested people enjoy working (and succeeding) on the fun parts, like cracking problems like ACPI etc.), but documenting and making stuff available for other hardware than one's own, is not fun.  And to undertake "not fun" tasks (or tasks that are not rewarding in other ways), people usually require some pay.  This is where licensing is important. 

Licensing is also the same business model applied by academic societies (where I am member of many, and have been president of one): membership fees cover for costs.  To keep the membership base (and preferably to increase it), the expected benefits of the membership must exceed members' costs.

This is where eCS (Xeu/Mensys) currently struggles.  Too little progress, uncertain deliveries etc. make users doubt the future. For me, and many other eCS users, it would be a loss if eCS were to vanish.  Therefore, we gamble (hoping sufficiently many others also gamble) by paying the modest license  fee to create revenues that cover the costs of keeping eCS operational, and by being a good platform, attract new users.

I wish I were wrong, and that it would be possible to keep eCS for free.  But I doubt it.  Somewhere, there must be some revenues to cover for the boring, but necessary part of making software run on hardware different from ones own. 

Have a thoughtful day
Eirik

Roderick Klein

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2014, 01:47:30 pm »
Hi Martin,

open source is great: in times when things go well, many contribute (and things go even better).  But the truth is that  in the long haul (and the nitty-gritty of tedious work is required), someone must be paid to do the work.  Let us look to Linux and Android. Linux is mostly still run on a voluntary basis, but with important commercial partners/off springs like Suse, RedHat and Mandrake, that all have helped advance Linux.  For Android it is even more clear - Android had not been where it currently is without the vast resources put in by Google.  The Android business model is a bit different from that of Linux -- the "economics" of Android is based on making other software (like Chrome) more palatable, and by lowering costs to consumers for buying Android devices, which in turn increases traffic, including the use of Google's services.

eCS is in a different situation.  There are probably less than 100 K private eCS users left in the world.  Open source routes, like those of Linux or Android, are unlikely to create the revenues needed to fund the boring polishing work (I assume many computer interested people enjoy working (and succeeding) on the fun parts, like cracking problems like ACPI etc.), but documenting and making stuff available for other hardware than one's own, is not fun.  And to undertake "not fun" tasks (or tasks that are not rewarding in other ways), people usually require some pay.  This is where licensing is important. 

Licensing is also the same business model applied by academic societies (where I am member of many, and have been president of one): membership fees cover for costs.  To keep the membership base (and preferably to increase it), the expected benefits of the membership must exceed members' costs.

This is where eCS (Xeu/Mensys) currently struggles.  Too little progress, uncertain deliveries etc. make users doubt the future. For me, and many other eCS users, it would be a loss if eCS were to vanish.  Therefore, we gamble (hoping sufficiently many others also gamble) by paying the modest license  fee to create revenues that cover the costs of keeping eCS operational, and by being a good platform, attract new users.

I wish I were wrong, and that it would be possible to keep eCS for free.  But I doubt it.  Somewhere, there must be some revenues to cover for the boring, but necessary part of making software run on hardware different from ones own. 

Have a thoughtful day
Eirik

I understand Martin his drive for open source. But when it comes to large projects I told him many times it takes time to develop something. And large projects mostly requires paid people.
And do not take my word for it. This guy has presented at LNFW (LinuxFest Northwest) for some years he did so already http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh-cnaJoGCw.
I think it was this video I watched... The presenter mentions somewherre in that video that Linux has big money behind it. If its for the kernel or the different graphic user shells.
Its far from just volunteers that develop code in spare time.

So while open source does a lot for OS/2 and would be dead without it. Open source has primarly allowed a lot of people to work and port stuff from primarly Linux to OS/2.
But the work is mostly (big projects) done by paid or low paid people.

So I understand the will to see stuff have open source as so much nice OS/2 software died because it was closed source. But open source is not a warranty to keep OS/2 alive.
Just like with Linux (which I recently looked into more), more and more money flowed into the product over the years. A lot of critical mass came from large cooperate funding.

As for eCS I can not state much. I like OS/2 a lot and type this message on my laptop running eCS. But as you can see on my linked in profile and have possibly heard I have left Mensys.
I am still president of VOICE and will remain so. I will also be in the forums.

What Mensys is currently doing with eCS I do not know. I have seen messages from Lewis Rosenthal popup he is starting a new company. What will happen from here I do not know.

I am staying tuned to forums and mailing lists.

Roderick Klein

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2014, 02:27:16 pm »
Hi

I think that sometimes we are running under the false premise that Open Source = No charge / Free of charge / Hippie love. Please forget about this.

Open source does not mean getting paid with air, open source means that you need to change you business model from selling licenses (which does not have a future for a commodity software like an OS) to a service business model. I understand that it is not as easy as selling licenses, but there are companies making money and having sustainability for their projects.

I insist that we need to keep moving on open sourcing OS/2 close source components, keep growing the user base, find a niche and grow with a service business model with the OS.
It does not mean to be drastic like throwing everything we have and stop supporting the companies that sells OEM OS/2 licenses at once. It can be progressive path but the final goal will be to have an open source OS so we don't depend on a single vendor anymore.

The issue that I find right now is that "OS/2's niche" are:
1) Corporate customers that have an OS/2 app that cost too much to migrate to other applications
2) Individual users that like the platform and want it for its PC.

This niche is not allowing us to grow the user base. Corporate customers will keep buying license until they migrate to other software (it is just a matter of time). And we have more individual users leaving the platform because of the limitations.

The very long term road I see is making OS/2 accessible to the public and vendor independent (which means open source), that is the first step to have the possibilities to attract developers, grow the user base, find a new niche, create an ecosystem and became a market (can be little or big). I understand that are steps that will take a long time and we don't have to think about all steps right now.

If we want to do something for the platform today, we need to support open source and move in that road.  If we are still here today is not because we care about the market, it is because we want to use and have the best OS that fits our needs and taste.
 
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Martin Iturbide
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jnw

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2014, 10:03:26 pm »
There is one point not discussed here: to sell eCS the vendor requires an OEM agreement with IBM as OS/2 code owner... As far as I know the only licensee is still Mensys. All the work done to improve eCS is still based on OS/2 licence. So, eCS-OS/2 community in any case is bound to Mensys...

Greetings - Jan

ivan

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2014, 10:44:13 pm »
Jan, as far as I know the eCS product is OS/2 with addons and an improves installer.  I don't think that Mensys has access to the source code for any of the base OS/2 because if they had that should have their first priority to update.

Based on the above there is no reason why the product couldn't be split into its two parts, OS/2 and addons/installer.  In fact I think there would be a number of people interested in the addons/installer as a stand alone product.  Also, as I understand it, most of the addons are open source which only leaves the installer to be opened.

Yes, that does mean that a source of the base OS/2 would need to be found but that is not insurmountable - we manage to pick up licences when we need copies for our clients even if it does require a little detective work to find them.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2014, 11:25:46 pm »
You both are right.

If you need a new license of OS/2 you can only buy it on Mensys today, and that is key to grow the user base.

But, lets remember that eCS is OS/2 Warp 4.52 with open source software, ACPI and other close source software. (plus all the effort to put that together on the installer).  If you have a license of OS/2 Warp 4.52 there is no limitation on you creating your own version of a modified OS/2 for your use.

That why I think it is a good idea to create an UpdCD package that uses the OS/2 iso (not included on the package) to create an new OS/2 distribution.

Regards
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 12:46:19 am by Martin Iturbide »
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eirik

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2014, 08:46:29 am »
Hi all,

Martin is right that open source does not necessarily imply that things are free (as most of us probably already were aware of).  Unfortunately, in discussions that is linked to the Xeu/Mensys issue, where again I agree that they have not delivered well enough, there appears to be a grudge against Xeu's/Mensys' licensing policy.  I hope we can drop that ball.

The key issue is insufficient progress on important aspects of eCS, which erodes the user base.  Here, I agee with Martin --some of the problems eCS faces is because parts of the additions are kept as close source, which limits how members of the eCS community can help. Which in turn would mean faster progress (and more satisfied users).

Open sourcing key components of eCS (the installer, ACPI etc) can be combined with a licensing policy quite similar to the one today -- those contributing to development could get the subscription for free.  Not a big prize, but at least a reward.  The number of "developers" would probably still be small (though considerably larger than today), so that the revenue stream from licenses would not be reduced in a noticeable way.  In the long run revenues would most likely increase as eCS would be better.

In academia where I work, similar arrangements are well established where reviewers for scientific journals in some cases gets lower subscription fees and other perks. As more journals are openly available through publishing consortia deals with libraries, this business model is challenged, which poses major challenges for journals and academic organizations.  How to resolve this is yet not solved.

The parallel development of key components that some people argue for resembles the issues facing journals and academia. In addition to established journals that is made available through library agreements, there is a growing number of on line journals that offer publication outlets for academics (who need to publish not to perish).  Many of these journals are of low quality, and the fact that it is published no longer means that the work is quality tested (by serious peer review).

I fear that open source parallel development of key eCS components could be bad news for eCS users as development resources (human capital) is spread thin in a setting where there already are too few developers.  It is therefore time for the limited number of eCS developers to approach Xeu/Mensys to pool resources.  That does not imply that for example the OS/4 kernel is dead (in due time we need 64 bit and more processing power), but that arrangements are made to secure that development initiatives are compatible and point forward.

Have a thougthful day / Eirik

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #53 on: July 04, 2014, 09:15:45 am »
That does not imply that for example the OS/4 kernel is dead (in due time we need 64 bit and more processing power), but that arrangements are made to secure that development initiatives are compatible and point forward.

Indeed, OS/4 is not dead and is still developing. But this will by no means help with 64 bit. OS/2 (OS/4) will always be 32 bit. Of course, unless one day someone decides to recompile all software including drivers and write a new kernel.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #54 on: July 04, 2014, 02:26:31 pm »
... there appears to be a grudge against Xeu's/Mensys' licensing policy.  I hope we can drop that ball.

Sorry to not drop the ball. I think that it is ok for XEU/Mensys to sell licenses. But licensing selling it just a temporal business model that will end on the future when corporate customers migrates their old OS/2 applications. That why it is important to evolve into a services offering business model. It is a good idea to keep selling licenses while it keep giving some money, but thinking about what you are going to offer in the future and offering a roadmap for the product too.

But my personal opinion is that Mensys deserves all criticism they are getting. I personally think they had the chance do more with eCS in past. I had criticized that they didn't have a "long term strategy" (and got some heat to do that). People had been told for years under the table "wait for the next release", "something good is going to happen" and they are still waiting. And lately they rebranded everything to XEU there was not any kind of formal announcement since December 2013 until today(six months).  Should we just wait in silence and see what happens?

I even remember that once I was being such a dick about criticizing Mensys/eCS that I thought "lets see if wrote something more constructive and if Mensys can hear me" and I wrote this article: "Comments and Suggestions about eComStation User Experience". I send them over on 2011, they thanked me and that was all.  I was hoping at least some open discussion, some feedback...at least told me that I was wrong....nothing.

Many other members of the community (including someones that are not still here anymore) posted here "be thankful of Mensys because without them OS/2 will be dead", everytime Mensys got a little criticisms on this forum. I'm thankful for what they acomplish but I just want to remember, the position of OS2World is not to be a "Mensys defense group community", neither a "I hate Mensys community".  I really hope that on this forums we can have an open discussion and be able to be critic about what is happening. What joins us on this community is our love for the platform and not our like or dislike for Mensys.

I really hope that XEU slaps me back in the face with a long term strategy for the platform, with community leaders collaborating in the forums, open source development and with better driver short term support.  I urge Mensys/XEU to do something and announce something, because it is waist of resources to discuss about them speculating.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 03:14:57 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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ivan

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2014, 05:17:43 pm »
Quote
I really hope that XEU slaps me back in the face with a long term strategy for the platform, with community leaders collaborating in the forums, open source development and with better driver short term support.  I urge Mensys/XEU to do something and announce something, because it is waist of resources to discuss about them speculating.

Martin, I think you will be waiting a long time for any response from them.  I get the impression that they have absolutely no idea about what they are going to do with OS/2 or eCS.  I doubt they will continue to support it in any way - they don't have the OS/2 source code so that is out and I don't see them doing any support for multimac or any of the other efforts or we would have heard about it before now.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2014, 05:55:01 pm »
Quote
Martin, I think you will be waiting a long time for any response from them.

I hope (or maybe the right word is "dream"), but I will not be sitting waiting for it. We don't have to expect miracles from Mensys or IBM. We need to keep open sourcing OS/2 software and support the open source developers that we have.

Regards
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 05:56:32 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2014, 09:30:14 pm »
In my previous post I wanted to tell you that any reasonable development of eCS requires the ability to sell new licenses. As you think of eCS as the extension of OS/2, it is based on Warp 4.52, not 4.0. You cannot legally buy a licence for Warp 4.52 the other way like buying eCS via Mensys, because originally Warp 4.52 was only the subscription to Warp 4.0 via Passport Advantage and bound to its original Warp 4.0 licence (I doubt whether Passport Advantage agreement was transferrable). So, in my opinion, the ability of Mensys/XEU to sell new licences of eCS is the necessary condition to further existence of OS/2 development. You may be right in some opinions about Mensys activity in the field, but this is the cornerstone of the situation.

Greetings - Jan

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2014, 04:09:26 pm »
This anouncement:

Warpstock is pleased to announce a presentation by Menso de Jong,
founder of Mensys, who will speak on the future of eComStation.


may bring some light in this, or just may let us look at it in a different (funeral) light.

If this Presentation will (ever?) happen - I personally not expect to hear some concrete information, it would be nice to have at least some more information than the ususal "We are working hard.... soon there will be...."

This is even more interesting as there is no more information coming from the "new" company as well.

Would be nice to have some more information to spread or discuss at the coming OS/2 user meeting in Cologne in the end of November, wether there is a future or not.


David Kiley

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #59 on: August 02, 2014, 08:22:31 am »
So I understand the will to see stuff have open source as so much nice OS/2 software died because it was closed source. But open source is not a warranty to keep OS/2 alive.

I totally hear what your saying that big open source projects are usually commercially funded, but I also agree with Martin that if os/2 computing experience has a future it is with open source.
These closed companies can only keep us on a life support path.

Personally I think we need to think outside the box.
Like, the core linux kernel is already mature, with 90% hardware support and support for existing technologies (64 bit etc).
Why not make a new linux distribution, using the already existing technology - and then focuse on specific things that could make it more like os/2.
For example if we the community created a linux distro with a WPS like desktop experience, it would effectly become a new os/2.

So then instead of having to create a completely new os, now you can just focus all the effort on the desktop experience, since os/2 has a very unique WPS interface that has never been replicated.

And who knows, as we get more users, then you could futher add features, like an os/2 "classic" emulator that can run native os/2 & dos apps - similar to what apple did with os/x.

So yeah.. I think we could aim for a new os called Lin/2 :).

With that kind of strategy we wouldn't be constantly reinventing the wheel, trying to get virtualbox, flash, firefox etc running on the old closed source software.
But could instead focus all that limited effort into creating something new that we the community own.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 08:25:28 am by David Kiley »