OS2 World Community Forum

OS/2, eCS & ArcaOS - Technical => Applications => Topic started by: Martin Iturbide on March 06, 2017, 02:09:42 pm

Title: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on March 06, 2017, 02:09:42 pm
Hi

I assume we are getting close to the finish line for ArcaOS to be released since there haven't been any change of schedule announced by Arca Noae. If everythings turns ok (according to the latest Arca Noae news (http://www.os2world.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21639:arca-noae-blue-lion-moves-into-beta-testing&catid=80:software&Itemid=518)) the OS will be relased on end of March, and for what Lewis told us on Warpstock he won't be releasing it on April 1st :)

Sure, they will be some guys trying it out the first day it cames out, some other will wait, but the question is, are you doing something to get ready for ArcaOS? Do you have any plan on where to try it out?

For the moment, I got myself an USB 16GB flash drive reserved for the installer and I want to boot it from USB on different machines I got to see it works.

Some important risk that I found is that there is still no modern Wifi driver released by Arca Noae, so if it does not get released with ArcaOS,  that may became an important source of cristism for the OS.

Please share your thoughts.

Regards
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: ivan on March 06, 2017, 03:17:35 pm
Martin, you raise interesting questions.

So far there appears to be no information about hoe the OS is modified or what is included with it.

There is also no indication of cost and how delivered (physical CD, Physical bootable USB stick, electronic delivery of ISO image for burning to a CD or DVD etc.).

Also what hardware is it envisaged working on, brand new bleeding edge motherboard with 16 GB ram and 2TB drives or what.

Without that information we can't do much preparation.  We will just have to hope for the best that it installs and works on what we have. 
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: André Heldoorn on March 06, 2017, 03:38:17 pm
So far there appears to be no information about hoe the OS is modified or what is included with it.
What about available out-of-the-box languages, other than English (and maybe German)? A main reason to skip eCs 2.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on March 06, 2017, 05:24:25 pm
Hi All

My plan is very simple with regard to trying ArcaOS5:

1] Backup Dell E5500 laptop eCS volumes - my hardly ever used system
2] Check Install Options of ArcaOS5 - I would prefer to leave existing data and programs volumes intact and "hook" them up to the new install on the ex-eCS boot volume.
    2a] Optional depending on drivers supplied with ArcaOS5: may need the genmac intel wifi packages handy
3] See how ArcaOS5 runs on this system - stability/usability
4] Decide whether to test on Desktop systems based on results of 2] and 3]

Basically I plan to avoid disrupting any of my working Desktop systems unless satisfied that ArcaOS5 will install and run with minimum "faffing".

As to delivery of ArcaOS5: I think I expect downloadable DVD(CDs) ISO(s) although a Bootable USB Flash Drive image should also be possible. I would also expect physical media to be available at extra cost + post.

Regards

Pete


Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Kohl on March 06, 2017, 05:48:23 pm
Also what hardware is it envisaged working on, brand new bleeding edge motherboard with 16 GB ram and 2TB drives or what.

That's funny. Who needs this amounts under OS/2 systems where the included SORT command can only deal with files up to 64KB?

There was no announcement regarding VMB and VDM from AN. So be prepared for 1991/92 retroware, unless you have already a FAT partition with PC DOS 7 or DR DOS with a more useful collection of commands.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Schnellbacher on March 06, 2017, 06:29:00 pm
So far there appears to be no information about hoe the OS is modified or what is included with it.

In short: I expect something like an updated eCS with a new installer. About drivers: With the exception of the Kernel and SNAP, I see nothing that's not already available via Subscription.

There is also no indication of cost and how delivered (physical CD, Physical bootable USB stick, electronic delivery of ISO image for burning to a CD or DVD etc.).
Again, I expect the same as with eCS - similar pricing, booting (DVD or USB) and media. Apparently booting from an .iso file is still not supported.

Also what hardware is it envisaged working on
That seems to be a great mystery. We can guess from the available drivers that hardware support has become harder than it was in eCS times.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on March 06, 2017, 07:27:48 pm
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For the moment, I got myself an USB 16GB flash drive reserved for the installer and I want to boot it from USB on different machines I got to see it works.

USB Flash drive installer support is highly unlikely for the GA. That will come later (not enough time to properly test it).

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Some important risk that I found is that there is still no modern Wifi driver released by Arca Noae, so if it does not get released with ArcaOS,  that may became an important source of cristism for the OS.

It is highly unlikely that WiFi support (other than what already exists) will be included with the GA.

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What about available out-of-the-box languages, other than English (and maybe German)?

I know that most of the work has been done, for more than one language (including German), but I don't know if that will be ready for day one.

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As to delivery of ArcaOS5: I think I expect downloadable DVD(CDs) ISO(s) although a Bootable USB Flash Drive image should also be possible.

Most likely downloadable DVD ISO, but I don't make those decisions. USB Flash drive is on the todo list, but it probably won't happen until after the GA.

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So far there appears to be no information about hoe the OS is modified or what is included with it.

The announcement says most of it. From what I have seen, so far, it will be a step forward from what eCS 2.2b2 is, but it is not a giant leap. Most of the new drivers etc. are already available through the ArcaOS driver package.

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Also what hardware is it envisaged working on, brand new bleeding edge motherboard with 16 GB ram and 2TB drives or what.

It will depend on what is on the motherboard. ArcaOS is still OS/2, which is limited to using about 3.5 GB of memory, and it requires Legacy mode in a UEFI BIOS. 2 TB drives will work, the way that they do today.

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Without that information we can't do much preparation.  We will just have to hope for the best that it installs and works on what we have. 

So far, I have had more trouble with old machines, than with newer ones, but I don't have the latest, and greatest, to test with.

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That's funny. Who needs this amounts under OS/2 systems where the included SORT command can only deal with files up to 64KB?

I haven't used SORT, ever. That is still true of the SORT that is installed by RPM/YUM, so I would assume that *NIX has the same limit.

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There was no announcement regarding VMB and VDM from AN. So be prepared for 1991/92 retroware, unless you have already a FAT partition with PC DOS 7 or DR DOS with a more useful collection of commands.

This statement makes no sense, at all. If it works today, it will probably work with ArcaOS 5.0. If not, there is a slight chance that it will work, but don't expect miracles. "1991/92 retroware" is completely ridiculous, and what has DOS got to do with it (yes DOS, and WinOS2 still work, as they always have).

As I have said before, don't expect miracles. The main objective now, is to get this thing out the door, with a new installer, and with everything up to the latest, existing (tested), versions, where possible. It would be a support nightmare, if they tried to include a bunch of new things, like WiFi, and > 2 TB disk support (which are being worked on, but they are not ready). That stuff comes later (after all, the same people are working on all of it, so priorities need to be made, unless you want to wait for another couple of years).  IMO ArcaOS 5.0 will probably be one step further than what was envisioned for eCS 2.2 GA, and from what I have seen, so far, it is working much better than eCS 2.2b2 does.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on March 06, 2017, 09:25:38 pm
As I have said before, don't expect miracles. The main objective now, is to get this thing out the door, with a new installer, and with everything up to the latest, existing (tested), versions, where possible....

Hi Doug, I also share your opinion. For what I understood on some Warpstock sessions, Lewis told he want to give first something to the OS/2 community to maintain the continuity of the product (I'm using my own words), and not making any great breakthrough on the OS (yet) or trying to reach outside the OS/2 customer base.  It is kind of obvious for first step because of the lack of developers, time, money and also because nothing that belongs to Mensys can be used.

But I think it is also to important to know that there will be community outsiders that will like to test the first release of the new "OS/2 distro" and the lack of modern wifi drivers may be negative for the image of the OS.  Inside the OS/2 community we know about it, but for other users those drivers are something basic. Maybe, for the ArcaOS 5.1 release, it will have modern wifi drivers, but at that point there will no way to take away from the Internet the idea that ArcaOS does not have wifi drivers.

And also I'm still curious to know which OS/2 software will make it to the GA version of ArcaOS like xWorkplace, Styler, etc, etc.

Regards

Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on March 06, 2017, 11:57:22 pm
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But I think it is also to important to know that there will be community outsiders that will like to test the first release of the new "OS/2 distro" and the lack of modern wifi drivers may be negative for the image of the OS.

It is definitely a negative, but the drivers don't exist, yet, so they cannot be included. Just not enough people to do it. As I understand it, they will be the highest priority, after GA. The existing GENMAC drivers should be there (you may need to download some of them, because of licensing concerns). USB 3 also falls into the ASAP category.

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And also I'm still curious to know which OS/2 software will make it to the GA version of ArcaOS like xWorkplace, Styler, etc, etc.

I can't say what will be in the GA. I don't have any say in that. At the moment (a partial list) there is a custom version of XWP LITE, and Styler is there, along with Dragtext, a SAMBA client (yes, it will currently log onto win 10 - that may change if MS changes something), Samba server, CUPS, Firefox, Thunderbird, Seamonkey, 4OS2, Lucide, ANPM (RPM/YUM), and more. Any other program that works on eCS should also work on ArcaOS (although it may be a problem if it is keyed to eCS somehow). I have installed Apache Open Office 4.1.3, PMView, PMMail, and a few others, that are not included.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Kohl on March 07, 2017, 02:30:31 pm
I haven't used SORT, ever. That is still true of the SORT that is installed by RPM/YUM, so I would assume that *NIX has the same limit.

Quite sophistic answer, or at least lack of knowledge.

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There was no announcement regarding VMB and VDM from AN. So be prepared for 1991/92 retroware, unless you have already a FAT partition with PC DOS 7 or DR DOS with a more useful collection of commands.

This statement makes no sense, at all. If it works today, it will probably work with ArcaOS 5.0. If not, there is a slight chance that it will work, but don't expect miracles. "1991/92 retroware" is completely ridiculous, and what has DOS got to do with it (yes DOS, and WinOS2 still work, as they always have).

So which DOS and Windows applications were tested really? Any improvement for average users over the state from summer 1996?

It's obvious that by packaging all this more than 20 years old stuff without serious testing will cause compatibilty and reliability problems. eComStation introduced incompatibilty even for certified OS/2 applications and devices, so nobody was bying. So it's better expect nothing.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: André Heldoorn on March 07, 2017, 05:31:18 pm
So which DOS and Windows applications were tested really? Any improvement for average users over the state from summer 1996?

Presumably we're existing users. I guess the summer of 1996's DOS sound is important for new users, whom have discovered their collection of DOS games, and DOSBox for their operating system isn't always the answer. It's a niche market, but now lacking DOS sound is a reason to not recommend OS/2 as a best DOS for 2007's hardware. Now our answer typically will be that you can play game XYZ without any problem, but mute only. So DOSBox for their operating system may still win.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Kohl on March 07, 2017, 06:13:26 pm
So which DOS and Windows applications were tested really? Any improvement for average users over the state from summer 1996?

Presumably we're existing users. I guess the summer of 1996's DOS sound is important for new users, whom have discovered their collection of DOS games, and DOSBox for their operating system isn't always the answer. It's a niche market, but now lacking DOS sound is a reason to not recommend OS/2 as a best DOS for 2007's hardware. Now our answer typically will be that you can play game XYZ without any problem, but mute only. So DOSBox for their operating system may still win.

Sorry, I'm not an expert for multimedia device support in OS/2. But here my thoughts about general situation:
* The last fully supported audio adapters are based on Crystal chipset. All this half ported stuff from Alsa is simply not useable in real-world applications. Some applications (e.g. Rapidax Ranger) shipped with special drivers for custom hardware doing the audio data processing.
* So nowadays the device support situation is more obscure than in almost every UNIX derivate. There you have the option for quite recent devices by OpenSound drivers from 4Front (http://ossnext.trueinstruments.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5841 (http://ossnext.trueinstruments.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5841) ).
* For best application compatibilty (and perhaps also for mentioned gaming stuff) you can not move further than i865-based mainboard with one or two ISA-slots and appropriate audio adapters.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on March 07, 2017, 07:25:46 pm
So which DOS and Windows applications were tested really? Any improvement for average users over the state from summer 1996?

What is there to test, that hasn't been tested to death since 1996? DOS, and WinOS2 haven't changed. What has changed, is lack of driver support for things like sound cards (and there is a driver for winOS2, if you can find it - I don't remember what it is called, and it is probably unsupported). We just don't have the programmers to even begin thinking about such things.

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So DOSBox for their operating system may still win.

Actually, DosBox is not a bad idea. It can also support the later win 31 additions (whatever they were called), if you need that for some reason, and you have the option to control speed. I don't think that DOS and WinOS2 are very high on the Arca Noae priority list, especially when there is a viable option (DosBox).

I haven't actually tried it, but DosBox should run the DOS, and WinOS2, that comes with OS/2, or, you can find ready made systems, if you like. http://files.abandonia.com/extras/Programs/Windows%203%20for%20DOSBox.rar (http://files.abandonia.com/extras/Programs/Windows%203%20for%20DOSBox.rar), for example. An added advantage, is that you can install DosBox for windows, and run the same stuff in a windows environment (using a shared disk). There may even be a DosBox for *nix.

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* The last fully supported audio adapters are based on Crystal chipset. All this half ported stuff from Alsa is simply not useable in real-world applications. Some applications (e.g. Rapidax Ranger) shipped with special drivers for custom hardware doing the audio data processing.

I am not so sure that I would call the Crystal drivers "supported". They never did work properly. "Special drivers" never were a good idea, and, as you say, they are usually for "custom hardware", which would be totally unsupported now. The UniAud drivers are fully ported, as far as it can be done. Unfortunately, the source got moved into the *nix kernel, which made it very difficult, and time consuming, to do the port. Now, there is a new project planned (but not done, yet), to use a different source. I don't know the details, but the guy who is doing it is working on more important things, so it probably won't happen in the near future. Ideally, we would get new, native, drivers for all devices, but it seems that the manufacturers refuse to give out the necessary information, they refuse to make an OS/2 version, and we don't have anybody to do the job anyway. Be happy with what we have. The alternative is no sound support, at all, unless somebody steps up to do it.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Kohl on March 07, 2017, 09:53:24 pm
So which DOS and Windows applications were tested really? Any improvement for average users over the state from summer 1996?

What is there to test, that hasn't been tested to death since 1996?
To start with quite simple stuff dor DOS:  WordPerfect 6.2
or Windows 3.1 programs from 1997 or later:
WordPerfect 7, Adobe Acrobat 3.01
to the more complicated:
Microsoft RDP Client, Internet Explorer 5

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DOS, and WinOS2 haven't changed.
Myth or misconception - I cannot judge. Even OS/2's VDM and Win-OS/2 got limited Euro support and Y2K fixes meanwhile.

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What has changed, is lack of driver support for things like sound cards (and there is a driver for winOS2, if you can find it - I don't remember what it is called, and it is probably unsupported).
That depends largely on specific devices. Nowadays more than before, unfortunately.

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We just don't have the programmers to even begin thinking about such things.
As long by using heads for thinking instead only for a hat stand there will be no problems at all.

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* The last fully supported audio adapters are based on Crystal chipset. All this half ported stuff from Alsa is simply not useable in real-world applications. Some applications (e.g. Rapidax Ranger) shipped with special drivers for custom hardware doing the audio data processing.

I am not so sure that I would call the Crystal drivers "supported". They never did work properly.
I never saw drivers that behaved better under OS/2 including VDM, Win-OS/2 with or without MIDI. Perhaps I'm not up to date regarding this topic. So which recent PCIe audio card is supported?

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"Special drivers" never were a good idea, and, as you say, they are usually for "custom hardware", which would be totally unsupported now.
Every devoce driver that was certified for OS/2 or doesn't violate the provided device driver interfaces should work usually.

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The UniAud drivers are fully ported, as far as it can be done.
For what reason? UniAud itself is some kind of port from the Alsa sources. Perhaps it was a good idea 15 years back?

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Unfortunately, the source got moved into the *nix kernel, which made it very difficult, and time consuming, to do the port.
Simply not true, I cannot find anything that will prove your claims. And I'm running different flavours of UNIX for more than 20 years.

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Now, there is a new project planned (but not done, yet), to use a different source. I don't know the details, but the guy who is doing it is working on more important things, so it probably won't happen in the near future. Ideally, we would get new, native, drivers for all devices, but it seems that the manufacturers refuse to give out the necessary information, they refuse to make an OS/2 version, and we don't have anybody to do the job anyway. Be happy with what we have. The alternative is no sound support, at all, unless somebody steps up to do it.

Fake news again. There are no serious relations to manufacturers estabilished yet afaik. Nobody refuses without a particular reason. A lot of device vendors provide the necessary information about open (and open source) interfaces. For instance there's no big deal for network adapters that ship with DOS NDIS2 drivers to include also NDIS2 OS/2 drivers. For an updated printer support I cannot see any roadblock.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on March 07, 2017, 11:21:27 pm
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To start with quite simple stuff dor DOS:  WordPerfect 6.2
or Windows 3.1 programs from 1997 or later:
WordPerfect 7, Adobe Acrobat 3.01
to the more complicated:
Microsoft RDP Client, Internet Explorer 5

Well, why don't you just switch to windows? Win 10 won't run any of them either. In fact, I would be surprised if XP would run any of them. Acrobat Reader, and Internet Explorer 5, are certainly useless, today, but they will run in DosBox, if you set it up properly.

FWIW, there is a new RDP client for OS/2 (RDeskTop), that actually works quite well (it is at HOBBES). It will NOT be included with ArcaOS because of licensing concerns, but it can be dropped in easily. OS/2 has it's own remote desktop (PMVNC) that works well, and it will be included in ArcaOS. The new VNCViewer (also at HOBBES) apparently works with the newer VNC server that windows uses (but I haven't tried it).

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That depends largely on specific devices. Nowadays more than before, unfortunately.

There hasn't been a new sound device with OS/2/winOS2 drivers since before eComStation showed up. Now is not the time to try to go back and recover from that.

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As long by using heads for thinking instead only for a hat stand there will be no problems at all.

Well, that is not true, at all. Right now, there are probably 6 people who have any idea how to go about writing drivers, of any kind, and they are all busy with more important things than trying to make ancient software work.

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So which recent PCIe audio card is supported?

Not enough of them, but most on board sound works, up to about 4 years ago, when the UniAud project came to a halt. I have some Realtek, and Intel, devices that work pretty well, but I haven't seen a plug in card since the days of Creative Labs Live! (which don't work with windows newer than Vista, by the way). In fact I have 4 of those cards (1 is dead), and I do use them in older hardware, with either UniAud, or Sander's driver (one or the other works, but not both, on the same card). They are far better than any Crystal device that I ever had.

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Every devoce driver that was certified for OS/2 or doesn't violate the provided device driver interfaces should work usually.

True, but do you have a device that you can plug in to use the driver? Software may work, but if there is no hardware to use it with, you need to take a different path.

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Simply not true, I cannot find anything that will prove your claims. And I'm running different flavours of UNIX for more than 20 years.

Sorry, but you need to look harder...

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Fake news again. There are no serious relations to manufacturers estabilished yet afaik.

Mensys tried, years ago. They were mostly ignored, and those companies who did respond said "No". If you think you can do better, please do so, but please don't piss off the manufacturers. They are already copy righting their work, to prevent others from being able to use their products (in fact, most drivers are now written by Microsoft). If they do that, and still refuse to make OS/2 drivers (why should they? and they don't do it anyway), we are completely finished. The only path left, is to use whatever some other OS uses, but that comes to an end eventually too.

You are flogging a dead horse. We (the OS/2 community) don't have the manpower, or the knowledge, to do all of those nice things any more. We have enough problems just trying to keep the OS running, and it is getting harder to do as we go along. We have been very fortunate that some people have figured out how to port things from other platforms, and most of that has been on a volunteer basis. Arca Noae is trying very hard to extend the life of OS/2, and they seem to be getting it right, but some things are just going to fall off the wagon. DOS, and WinOS2 are not used very much, and they will continue to work as well as they do now, but they won't be updated to make a few obsolete programs work, for very few people. It is as simple as that. DosBox is a viable alternative. Use it if you need it.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Kohl on March 08, 2017, 02:47:44 am
Well, why don't you just switch to windows? Win 10 won't run any of them either. In fact, I would be surprised if XP would run any of them.
Surprised by proven facts?

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Acrobat Reader, and Internet Explorer 5, are certainly useless, today, but they will run in DosBox, if you set it up properly.
I was not talking about the usability only about compatibility. So how can your DosBox utilise the integrated Win-OS/2 for transparent network connections etc.?

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FWIW, there is a new RDP client for OS/2 (RDeskTop), that actually works quite well (it is at HOBBES). It will NOT be included with ArcaOS because of licensing concerns, but it can be dropped in easily.
As long the web browser that was forked from Mozilla's Firefox is not crashing you could also use the Webclient from Ericom - still much better than this recommended pre alpha stuff.

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OS/2 has it's own remote desktop (PMVNC) that works well, and it will be included in ArcaOS. The new VNCViewer (also at HOBBES) apparently works with the newer VNC server that windows uses (but I haven't tried it).
Totally wrong or at least off topic here.

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There hasn't been a new sound device with OS/2/winOS2 drivers since before eComStation showed up. Now is not the time to try to go back and recover from that.
Nice fairytales.

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So which recent PCIe audio card is supported?

Not enough of them,
which means none by translating your sophistic answer.

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but most on board sound works, up to about 4 years ago, when the UniAud project came to a halt. I have some Realtek, and Intel, devices that work pretty well, but I haven't seen a plug in card since the days of Creative Labs Live! (which don't work with windows newer than Vista, by the way).
I don't want to prove any of your claims wrong. Seriously: http://support.creative.com/Downloads/searchdownloads.aspx?filename=SB24_PCDRV_LB_1_04_0090.exe (http://support.creative.com/Downloads/searchdownloads.aspx?filename=SB24_PCDRV_LB_1_04_0090.exe)

Unfortunately also the rest of your posting contains a lot of disinformation.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on March 08, 2017, 05:42:09 am
Andreas, I can see that you are only interested in arguing, without paying attention to what is going on in the real world. If you wish to use antique software, by all means continue (you will probably also need antique hardware to go with it). If modern hardware won't work with it, that is too bad, but such is life. Don't expect overworked people to drop everything just to make antique software work, when modern software is in desperate need of their very valuable time, and efforts.

You do have options. Use them.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on March 08, 2017, 08:25:20 am
I have some Hardware around, that I will test with ArcaOS5 once it is available and I have time.

- Lenovo X200T
- Lenovo X230T
- Lenovo T450s
- Sony Vaio Pro 13

Besides the new installer my expectations are very low - as far as I can extract from the Informations a got here in a different thread there will no other Drivers be included than those already available via AN Subscription.

While it is totally true what Doug wrote there is still the Problem that there is

- no Sound
- no WLAN
- no Video Driver besides Panorama

for the last years Hardware.

Well, this is no Problem for those industrial customers that are for sure the biggest Group of customers at all, those do mostly not Need this Features.

But for a Community member and Laptop user this is a true Show stopper. That is simple and true.

AN started three years ago in 2014 and the announcement of ArcaOS is as well quite some time ago. The decision where to concentrate on while trying to get ArcaOS out the door, since 1 and a half year, - new Drivers or new Installation methods has been made by Arca Noae and that is something one, or better me, has to accept and it makes no sense to complain about it. It is as it is.

But for me this is still the wrong decision. Especially when it will not be possible to install from USB Media.

In my honest opinion the install process at all ( I suggested it before ) should have gone in a total new direction:

- using a bootable DFSEE Stick
- the stick contains an extra Partition containing an universal (quite easy: "no Network" Card selected, "no Sound" selected) clone that once the HDD/SDD is partitioned with DFSEE is extraced. After the frist boot of this clone one can simply add the applications and Drivers one wants to use
(In fact that is in some Kind the way it goes with Windows and Linux)

I am using this method (not with an USB DFSEE stick, but once ago with a Linux Stick and DFSEE) for years now and is such simple and easy. With this I was able to install even an updated Warp 4 on the latest possible Hardware (i.e. Lenovo T450s).

Very contraproductive in my honest opinion is to Keep a lot of Information about it as some Kind of "mystery" "closed Information" "top secret" instead of spreading the News! You can do this if you have a product like an i-phone that already has a lot of Attention, but with a product that almost no one knows it is absolutly necessary to have a transparent beta stage and post as much Information as possible.
Else if you do not want to have Attention, because your main customers are industrial and you do not want or have the time to speak to the "private user" or have this Kind of Clients.
But therefore my expectations are low.

Even though - let us see what will come out the door once it Comes...



Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on March 08, 2017, 08:58:46 am
...
But for me this is still the wrong decision. Especially when it will not be possible to install from USB Media.

In my honest opinion the install process at all ( I suggested it before ) should have gone in a total new direction:

- using a bootable DFSEE Stick
- the stick contains an extra Partition containing an universal (quite easy: "no Network" Card selected, "no Sound" selected) clone that once the HDD/SDD is partitioned with DFSEE is extraced. After the frist boot of this clone one can simply add the applications and Drivers one wants to use
(In fact that is in some Kind the way it goes with Windows and Linux)

Then there are problems like which disk driver to have on the image. My T42 traps with the default of loading the ACHI driver first, other systems won't boot without it, it also doesn't like ACPI though that could be changed later. They have to attempt to install on a huge range of hardware from the newest to fairly old.
While the first release doesn't seem like it will have anything revolutionary on it, the plan is to concentrate on updating and adding new drivers after release.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on March 08, 2017, 09:06:16 am
...
But for me this is still the wrong decision. Especially when it will not be possible to install from USB Media.

In my honest opinion the install process at all ( I suggested it before ) should have gone in a total new direction:

- using a bootable DFSEE Stick
- the stick contains an extra Partition containing an universal (quite easy: "no Network" Card selected, "no Sound" selected) clone that once the HDD/SDD is partitioned with DFSEE is extraced. After the frist boot of this clone one can simply add the applications and Drivers one wants to use
(In fact that is in some Kind the way it goes with Windows and Linux)

Then there are problems like which disk driver to have on the image. My T42 traps with the default of loading the ACHI driver first, other systems won't boot without it, it also doesn't like ACPI though that could be changed later. They have to attempt to install on a huge range of hardware from the newest to fairly old.
While the first release doesn't seem like it will have anything revolutionary on it, the plan is to concentrate on updating and adding new drivers after release.

For this the solution is simple: as an "ordinary" clone does not Need more than 4GB at all you can have one for "legacy" and one for "Modern" Hardware. I guess besides the AHCI/DANI and ACPI/APM Driver question there is almost no other Problem with Drivers as almost all are generic.

For me I got a step further and have tailored clones for each of my Hardware (i.e.: with SNAP and APM for the ThinkPad X41, with Panorama and ACPI for the Lenovo T450s). But all of them still descend from the one original "superclone".
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on March 08, 2017, 02:18:40 pm
Hi

I think that we are noticing the weight of the "Legacy" of the platform.  There are a lot of things on the platform that we no longer use but it will be "taboo" just to think to take it off. I personally think that some of that legacy is a drag that is slowing us down. I'm almost sure that ArcaOS is not going to touch or remove that legacy of things, but it can be interesting on the future to start thinking what is not usefull anymore and finally put some things at rest.  I can not talk about the corporate enviroment of OS/2 users, but if we look for example what I asked on 2015 (Favorite/Required non-opensource OS/2-eCs apps? (http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,754.0.html) ) we can see that the requirement of the legacy components that used to be hot in the 90's has shrinked.  Maybe it can be good to discuss again what are the community favorite OS/2 applications.

Regards
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on March 08, 2017, 03:57:30 pm
Hi Andreas

There is most definitely a "roadblock" with printer support if you have a modern Canon inkjet printer.

Canon supply source code for their printers to work with cups/linux. The source code includes 2 precompiled library files that are required to compile the source code. There is no OS/2 version of those libraries and Canon will not be providing versions in the future. Canon will not release the source code for the precompiled libraries even under a nON Disclosure Agreement.

The result is that current Canon printers are not very well supported by cups for OS/2. My MG7550 can only print on A4 paper as the gutenprint driver - modified from an earlier Canon printer - cannot access the cassette holding photo paper/envelopes and the colour output is not accurate with Blue tending to be closer to Purple.

At the moment it seems the best cups for OS/2 printers are HP - but check support is in the hplip package and no extra closed source "plugins" are required. Shame HP do not make an inkjet printer that can print directly onto printable CD/DVD.


With regard to Crystal based soundcards: The 1 I had for a short period of time seemed to work - until it got stuck in a "repeat the sound forever" loop requiring a press of the Off button to resolve. This happened with both the crystal drivers and uniaud drivers so frequently that I gave up on the Crystal soundcard about 2 weeks after installing it. I seem to recall something about "buffers too small" being suggested as the cause of the problem but cannot remember if that was a hardware or software problem.


Regards

Pete



Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Kohl on March 08, 2017, 05:33:37 pm
Hi Andreas

There is most definitely a "roadblock" with printer support if you have a modern Canon inkjet printer.

Canon supply source code for their printers to work with cups/linux. The source code includes 2 precompiled library files that are required to compile the source code. There is no OS/2 version of those libraries and Canon will not be providing versions in the future. Canon will not release the source code for the precompiled libraries even under a nON Disclosure Agreement.
Even older Canon inkjets which are supported by CUPS have problems with the OS/2 fork but that's another topic.
Usually Canon and HP are almost the same devices, at least the printing engine is from the same chinese factory - to oversimplify it.

Quote
The result is that current Canon printers are not very well supported by cups for OS/2. My MG7550 can only print on A4 paper as the gutenprint driver - modified from an earlier Canon printer - cannot access the cassette holding photo paper/envelopes and the colour output is not accurate with Blue tending to be closer to Purple.

For devices without PostScript and PCL support it will be easier to create a virtual PS driver on a supported OS (even a VM works) which can be facilated for printing from OS/2 workstations.

Quote
At the moment it seems the best cups for OS/2 printers are HP - but check support is in the hplip package and no extra closed source "plugins" are required. Shame HP do not make an inkjet printer that can print directly onto printable CD/DVD.
By using the broken CUPS stuff it doesn't really matter. In general every PostScript and PCL5/6 compatible printing device should work without CUPS or special filters.

Quote
With regard to Crystal based soundcards: The 1 I had for a short period of time seemed to work - until it got stuck in a "repeat the sound forever" loop requiring a press of the Off button to resolve. This happened with both the crystal drivers and uniaud drivers so frequently that I gave up on the Crystal soundcard about 2 weeks after installing it. I seem to recall something about "buffers too small" being suggested as the cause of the problem but cannot remember if that was a hardware or software problem.

Better cards that utilise the supported CS-chipsets worked fine. Of course there were a lot of bad designs on the market also. So it became confusing for users at least.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on March 08, 2017, 08:13:56 pm
Quote
But for a Community member and Laptop user this is a true Show stopper. That is simple and true.

In fact it is not a show stopper. It is simply inconvenient. Sound, and WiFi, have never worked on my Lenovo ThinkPad L530, but the machine still runs well (especially with ArcaOS). Sound, on that machine, is not too bad under win 10, but the speakers are pretty marginal for actual serious listening. I use an external device for WiFi, when I need it.

Quote
But for me this is still the wrong decision. Especially when it will not be possible to install from USB Media.

Right, or wrong, the decision was made based on making the least number of changes possible. Install from USB media is possible (in fact, USB DVD drives are supported, if the BIOS will support booting from one), but there just isn't anybody to do it, or properly test it, for the GA. They still need the DVD installer, for those machines that don't support booting from USB, so it makes sense to go that way, for now. Using DVD can also be a problem, if the machine doesn't have a DVD drive that can be booted, but it is expected that most people have updated by now. Closer to release date, i will probably post a method to use a CD drive. That worked with eCS 2.2b2, but I haven't tried it with ArcaOS, yet.

Quote
containing an universal (quite easy: "no Network" Card selected, "no Sound" selected) clone

In fact, that is exactly how it works. ECS does it that way too. The "clone" is loaded into MEMDISK, and then it is configured to run, and booted from MEMDISK, to run the actual installer. The same will happen from a USB stick, eventually.

Quote
Very contraproductive in my honest opinion is to Keep a lot of Information about it as some Kind of "mystery" "closed Information" "top secret" instead of spreading the News!

I think you are expecting something that doesn't exist. There are a few new things, that have not, and probably won't be, discussed until release, but they are, in fact, pretty minor, and do not really impact on the big picture. In fact, most of it is available today, if you want it. ArcaOS simply puts it all together in one package. The big thing, IMO are some fixes that have been made to various parts of the OS, and no, I am not going to discuss those.

Quote
For this the solution is simple: as an "ordinary" clone does not Need more than 4GB at all you can have one for "legacy" and one for "Modern" Hardware.

One of the problems is that making a "clone" is not part of the license to use the OS/2 base. Apparently, OS/2 must be installed, as it came from IBM, then it can be modified, and that is exactly what is done with eCS, and ArcaOS. Even the installer is pushing the limits.

Quote
I think that we are noticing the weight of the "Legacy" of the platform.  There are a lot of things on the platform that we no longer use but it will be "taboo" just to think to take it off. I personally think that some of that legacy is a drag that is slowing us down.

I don't think that is a real problem. There is really nothing extra to install DOS/WinOS2 (which I assume is what you mean by "legacy"), other than a meg, or so, of files to add. Personally, I haven't installed that stuff for years. I went looking for a program to run in it, and couldn't find one.

Quote
Maybe it can be good to discuss again what are the community favorite OS/2 applications.

Yes, do so. There will not be a lot of actual "applications" in ArcaOS, and those that are included are mostly to support the operating system. Things like Apache Open Office, for instance, will probably not be included, unless it is added as a convenience for the user to install AFTER they install ArcaOS. In fact, that is very unlikely, because it would add a lot to the size of the download. So, applications are already available, if you want them, and you will still need to get what you want, if you don't already have them.

Quote
There is most definitely a "roadblock" with printer support if you have a modern Canon inkjet printer.

It is the same old, same old. OS/2 users need to choose their printers (and other things) carefully. There is nothing that can be done about manufacturers who refuse to support their products, other than to choose something from a manufacturer that does support their product. Canon printers, that work today, will work with ArcaOS. If they don't work today, they probably won't work with ArcaOS (although CUPS may eventually catch up). Today, I have an older HP PhotoSmart D110a printer, which works well (and installs perfectly under ArcaOS, using the CUPS that is installed with ArcaOS). I used Canon printers, for a while, and my brother still has one (MP620). Before that, I used Epson printers. To be blunt about it, Canon is better than Epson, and HP is the best that I ever used. HP is also better supported with CUPS (the ONLY modern printer driver, for OS/2) than either Epson, or Canon. In fact, I may never bother with another printer. I use a LOT  more ink, and paper, testing CUPS, to see if it works, than I do actually printing anything useful.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on March 08, 2017, 09:23:05 pm
Quote
But for a Community member and Laptop user this is a true Show stopper. That is simple and true.

In fact it is not a show stopper. It is simply inconvenient. Sound, and WiFi, have never worked on my Lenovo ThinkPad L530, but the machine still runs well (especially with ArcaOS). Sound, on that machine, is not too bad under win 10, but the speakers are pretty marginal for actual serious listening. I use an external device for WiFi, when I need it.

Quote
But for me this is still the wrong decision. Especially when it will not be possible to install from USB Media.

Right, or wrong, the decision was made based on making the least number of changes possible. Install from USB media is possible (in fact, USB DVD drives are supported, if the BIOS will support booting from one), but there just isn't anybody to do it, or properly test it, for the GA. They still need the DVD installer, for those machines that don't support booting from USB, so it makes sense to go that way, for now. Using DVD can also be a problem, if the machine doesn't have a DVD drive that can be booted, but it is expected that most people have updated by now. Closer to release date, i will probably post a method to use a CD drive. That worked with eCS 2.2b2, but I haven't tried it with ArcaOS, yet.

Quote
containing an universal (quite easy: "no Network" Card selected, "no Sound" selected) clone

In fact, that is exactly how it works. ECS does it that way too. The "clone" is loaded into MEMDISK, and then it is configured to run, and booted from MEMDISK, to run the actual installer. The same will happen from a USB stick, eventually.

Quote
Very contraproductive in my honest opinion is to Keep a lot of Information about it as some Kind of "mystery" "closed Information" "top secret" instead of spreading the News!

I think you are expecting something that doesn't exist. There are a few new things, that have not, and probably won't be, discussed until release, but they are, in fact, pretty minor, and do not really impact on the big picture. In fact, most of it is available today, if you want it. ArcaOS simply puts it all together in one package. The big thing, IMO are some fixes that have been made to various parts of the OS, and no, I am not going to discuss those.

Quote
For this the solution is simple: as an "ordinary" clone does not Need more than 4GB at all you can have one for "legacy" and one for "Modern" Hardware.

One of the problems is that making a "clone" is not part of the license to use the OS/2 base. Apparently, OS/2 must be installed, as it came from IBM, then it can be modified, and that is exactly what is done with eCS, and ArcaOS. Even the installer is pushing the limits.

I must confirm, that I can not believe what is written here, sorry.

- to say having no Sound is not so important because even under Windows 10 it sounds bad - Oh my god....What Kind of Argument is that? I have an X230T (very similar to the L530) - it sounds´great with Windows, and even better the Sony Vaio Pro 13, that has a very very good Sound Quality....

- USB DVD Drives are supported - Yes - since eCS 2.0 RC 6 -> when Daniela Eggert during Warpstock Europe 2008 (!) told how easy it is to be achieved. Mensys then adopted this idea (just change the order of Drivers in config.sys, I worte aobut it for years now). With booting from USB I meant "USB Stick", if that is not possible with ArcaOS5 there is no improvement since the last 9 years. You must be joking - or I totally misunderstand what you have written

- well, there is no Need to discuss the "Various important fixes" to the OS - as nobody knows what one should talk about -> because it is that "TOP SECRET"! I am not expecting miracles, I am just hoping for some of the things that have been mentioned in the presentations - in fact that hopes are all gone.

- I can not understand what might be wrong with a clone license -> the clone is just used for Installation -> the clone IS the operating System I have the license for (and for Warp 4 I have plenty...). Once you sell an USB Stick with a clone, what is the diffence to an USB Stick with an Installation? Both leads to one working OS/2 System in the end...

Really - I usually appreciate all your comments and efforts, but it seems to me that you lost ground here. It is OK if it is Okay for you to have no Sound and so on, but to be honest, that is something I do not want to tell others around me.

In the end it seems that ArcaOS5 will be a System that is Fitting the Needs of industrial Clients, not less and not more.

Mensys wasted so much time they invested into a new installer - and forgot to update the System. ArcaOS5 now is coming with a new installers and updated Drivers, but there is no Support for "new" Hardware classes. One can find reasons on and on, but in the end reagrading Sound, WLAN and SNAP there are no News.

And by the way is very discouraging to read: "You must be part of a beta Group or sing a N... bla bla bla" if you want to have simple Information, instead of just confirming: NO this and that will not come......
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on March 08, 2017, 11:25:22 pm
For myself, I haven't been told to keep anything secret besides the server where the beta ISOs are. I just don't think it's my place to talk too much about what is on the beta.
I also suspect that Doug's guess about the license that Arca Noae acquired from IBM includes having to first install OS/2 and then install the various add-ons.
As for USB boot, I was hoping for it but while just copying a clone is fairly simple, there's still the partitioning that needs to happen in a user friendly way and some kind of installer is still needed to install the network drivers.
Anyways it seems that the Arca Noae people are very busy and that's the reason that nothing is getting posted. Quite possibly they have a large industrial user with a deadline and if most of their income is going to come from industrial users, they're going to try to please them first. I doubt that the community is large enough to pay for all that much development.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on March 08, 2017, 11:36:11 pm
Hi Doug


Quote
There is most definitely a "roadblock" with printer support if you have a modern Canon inkjet printer.

It is the same old, same old. OS/2 users need to choose their printers (and other things) carefully. There is nothing that can be done about manufacturers who refuse to support their products, other than to choose something from a manufacturer that does support their product. Canon printers, that work today, will work with ArcaOS. If they don't work today, they probably won't work with ArcaOS (although CUPS may eventually catch up). Today, I have an older HP PhotoSmart D110a printer, which works well (and installs perfectly under ArcaOS, using the CUPS that is installed with ArcaOS). I used Canon printers, for a while, and my brother still has one (MP620). Before that, I used Epson printers. To be blunt about it, Canon is better than Epson, and HP is the best that I ever used. HP is also better supported with CUPS (the ONLY modern printer driver, for OS/2) than either Epson, or Canon. In fact, I may never bother with another printer. I use a LOT  more ink, and paper, testing CUPS, to see if it works, than I do actually printing anything useful.

I would have selected a HP printer but for the fact that I need to be able to print directly on printable CD/DVD - no stick on labels are not good enough - and HP simply do not make an inkjet printer with that capability.

I probably could have found a 2nd/3rd user HP with the capability but there again I could have repaired the 10 year old printer that was being replaced; it needed a printhead at around 66% of the cost of the MG7550 I purchased. Probably wore the printhead out in the early days of testing cups... :-)

I also selected the MG7550 as it was a direct replacement for the MG7150 which shows as having cups support. Sadly I was misguided by the presence of the cups driver as it is in fact an earlier model printer driver modified to work as badly with the MG7150 as it does with the MG7550.

So, even if cups seems to support your printer choice you may find that is not the case.

At least I can start VirtualPC, boot WinXP and print CD/DVD and photos from there.


Regarding DOS/Win: If you installed from an eCS CD then you certainly got DOS/Win support installed and configured regardless of whether you selected it or not. You would have needed to work through the config.sys removing all the unwanted DOS/Win lines and deleting the \os2\mdos directory.

Hopefully ArcaOS will not have that screwup.


Regards

Pete

Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on March 09, 2017, 12:04:15 am
Quote
- to say having no Sound is not so important because even under Windows 10 it sounds bad - Oh my god....What Kind of Argument is that? I have an X230T (very similar to the L530) - it sounds´great with Windows, and even better the Sony Vaio Pro 13, that has a very very good Sound Quality...

I didn't say it wasn't important. I did say that it is not a show stopper. Sorry, but the guy who does drivers is overworked already, and he will get to sound, and WiFi (not necessarily in that order), when it can be done. I have been told that neither one will be in the GA, and that both are high on the priority list for AFTER the GA.

Quote
With booting from USB I meant "USB Stick", if that is not possible with ArcaOS5 there is no improvement since the last 9 years.

It is possible, and it will be done. AFTER the GA. One step at a time.

Quote
- I can not understand what might be wrong with a clone license -> the clone is just used for Installation -> the clone IS the operating System I have the license for (and for Warp 4 I have plenty...). Once you sell an USB Stick with a clone, what is the diffence to an USB Stick with an Installation? Both leads to one working OS/2 System in the end...

Technically, it is easy. Legally? Well, talk to the lawyers. It is always best to err on the safe side of the law.

Quote
In the end it seems that ArcaOS5 will be a System that is Fitting the Needs of industrial Clients, not less and not more.

It will fit the needs of most users. Some newer hardware will not be supported, but that is nothing new. That is the case today. First, get the installer checked out, with minimal changes, so it is possible to support the product. Then, get to the new stuff. That may not please you, but it is the only logical way to approach it when Arca Noae doesn't have an army of support people.

Quote
And by the way is very discouraging to read: "You must be part of a beta Group or sing a N... bla bla bla" if you want to have simple Information, instead of just confirming: NO this and that will not come......

Sorry, but I am pushing my luck saying what I have. If you are not happy, send a message to Arca Noae, and ask for an official statement (just remember that EVERYBODY at Arca Noae, is busting their butt to get this right, so they don't have time for trivial questions). I can say that most people who get ArcaOS will be pleased. Some will be disappointed, but that is because they expect miracles. There will be no miracles. It will be a pretty solid operating system, that will install easily (in most cases - there are always surprises, and be sure to READ the documentation), and it will serve you well. The miracles come later.

Quote
but in the end reagrading Sound, WLAN and SNAP there are no News.

There is news. It has been stated that new support will come, AFTER the ArcaOS GA.

Quote
I would have selected a HP printer but for the fact that I need to be able to print directly on printable CD/DVD - no stick on labels are not good enough - and HP simply do not make an inkjet printer with that capability.

Stick on labels are highly hazardous to CD/DVD drives. In fact, I hear that CD/DVD drives are not even being installed on a lot of new systems, so the requirement to print on the media is also going away.

Quote
So, even if cups seems to support your printer choice you may find that is not the case.

In fact, that has always been the case. When I first got my HP D110a, it was not supported by CUPS. Since it wasn't a new printer, it didn't take long before it was supported (but not perfectly). Now, it seems to be supported properly. FWIW, it was not too long after Apple supported it (with CUPS), before Paul S. got it going in OS/2. Canon printer, on the other hand, don't have an OS/2 version of the support module, Canon won't create one (probably part of a contract with Microsoft), and there is no source for anybody else to create one. If you can't get wheels for your car, I guess you don't drive the car.

Quote
Hopefully ArcaOS will not have that screwup.

Don't bet on it, but it will be addressed, at the appropriate time. Since it is a non issue, it is very low on the priority list.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on March 09, 2017, 03:26:41 am
Hi Doug


Quote
I would have selected a HP printer but for the fact that I need to be able to print directly on printable CD/DVD - no stick on labels are not good enough - and HP simply do not make an inkjet printer with that capability.

Stick on labels are highly hazardous to CD/DVD drives. In fact, I hear that CD/DVD drives are not even being installed on a lot of new systems, so the requirement to print on the media is also going away.

What... like LPs disappeared due to the advent of CD?  ;-)

It really is of no interest whether DVD/CD drives are fitted as standard to new systems as I rarely purchase any pre-built system. Until I no longer have CD/DVD playback media that I want to make a copy of a DVD/CD burner is a necessity as is the ability to print on the media.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on March 09, 2017, 06:48:11 am
Quote
What... like LPs disappeared due to the advent of CD?  ;-)

No, it is more like floppies. They just don't hold enough data (even BluRay), and they are not as robust, or reliable, as USB sticks. USB 3.x has made USB sticks as fast as hard disks, and it is even likely that hard disks, as we know them, will go away in the not too distant future. The cost of production is not dropping for CD/DVD media, and the quality is dropping quickly, while the cost for USB sticks is dropping quickly, and the quality is actually improving.

Quote
It really is of no interest whether DVD/CD drives are fitted as standard to new systems as I rarely purchase any pre-built system.

Have you tried to buy an IDE DVD drive lately? They may still be found, but they are very expensive compared to SATA drives. Once the production requirements for SATA drives drops off, the price will go up, very quickly. About 4 years ago, I went looking for an IDE DVD writer. I found a source, but the price was about $250. The equivalent SATA drive cost me $20.

I also point out that it is difficult, if not impossible, to find a video recorder (for TV), that uses DVD media. All of them seem to be using hard disks, and that will likely be replaced by SSD, once the price gets low enough (it probably is now).

I don't know what you are using CD/DVD media for, but I would suggest that you keep an open mind about finding a better way.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: André Heldoorn on March 09, 2017, 01:35:48 pm
It really is of no interest whether DVD/CD drives are fitted as standard to new systems as I rarely purchase any pre-built system.

The fact that you rarely purchase any pre-built system is unrelated to the interest of all potential users. In general I'd recommend to not add too much irrelevant software to a CD (/DVD) anyway.

Compatibility is hardly an issue in the future. One may advocate that USB booting is a must-have, but that doesn't imply that USB booting will still exist in 2027. LPs are returning too, isn't it? Perhaps a bloody cloud (/SAAS) is today's modern answer. If someone claims that we now need USB booting instead of a DVD drive, then that's a description of today's choices. It doesn't predict 2027. Nor, more importantly, do we know that ArcaOS can still be installed on 2027's new hardware. We may switch to USB booting, but that's won't guarantee that you can buy 2027's hardware with USB and the baility to install 2017's ArcaOS. So, in other words, it has to work now. That won't exclude USB booting, but there's no reason to assume that USB booting will be the future. If it is the lasting future, then there's no reason to assume that you still can install ArcaOS by using the future's other hardware.

Do you know what the first tablet computer was with SSD, touchscreen, and so on? Answer: the very first IBM ThinkPad, the 700T.

So there's no reason to assume that DVD drives are drives of the past, because users want cheap, small and lightweighed hardware now. If 'now' predicts the future, then the first IBM ThinkPad was both right (now) and wrong (between 1992 and 2017). It has to work now, which won't exclude USB booting for computers without a CD (/DVD) drive.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on March 09, 2017, 01:43:52 pm
Hi Doug

My main use for CD media is making copies of CDs to play in my car CD player. I rarely download DVD images but if I do I need to be able to burn the images to DVD for playback in a DVD player. There is not a better way of creating CDs for playback in car or DVDs for playback in a DVD player. Come to think of it: did you mention that ArcaOS will probably be available as a downloadable DVD? - I would guess that a DVD burner and blank media is also required.

Last time I sourced an IDE DVD burner - about a year ago - it was around £22, the SATA version was £12  and, Yes, the SATA burners are still at that price and it seems there are still IDE burners from around the £22 mark. I am quite happy with a SATA burner  :-)

I suspect you are right about video recorders (for TV), that use DVD media. My current, now fairly elderly, TV DVD playback box is a combo PVR/DVD where TV programme recording is made to hard disk with the manual option of burning to DVD when recording is finished. I must admit to being fairly happy with that arrangement. A quick hunt for a replacement only reveals separate devices: a PVR for TV recording and a BluRay/DVD player for playback of existing media.

No doubt at some point in the not too distant future in car entertainment will change to using flash drives or similar - as long as the manufacturers do not insist on that awful mp3 computer noise format as the standard I can go with that. Just need a CD/DVD Player to rip tracks from then.

Anyway, we digress somewhat from the original thread.


Regards

Pete



Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: André Heldoorn on March 09, 2017, 01:48:45 pm
Maybe it can be good to discuss again what are the community favorite OS/2 applications.

About the only thing you can get rid of for sure are DATABASE.TXT's entries for outdated software and/or for users migrating from 1995's professional Windows 3.1 software to an OS/2 environment. An entry for modern browsers would make more sense. I do use it to install M$ Office 4.3 (or whatever) with updates to read newer M$ file formats, so don't DELTREE all Win-OS/2 software, but a true migration from DOS/Windows 3.1 to OS/2 plays no role anymore. Nobody will expect that Adobe PhotoShop v0.01 will still work, without having to find out what the best settings would be. You won't sell copies of ArcaOS anymore by telling users that it's easy to migrate their software to OS/2.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: André Heldoorn on March 09, 2017, 02:25:10 pm
For best application compatibilty (and perhaps also for mentioned gaming stuff) you can not move further than i865-based mainboard with one or two ISA-slots and appropriate audio adapters.

FTR: you could be able to install a Crystal ISA sound adapter in a proper docking station, of some notebooks which have no own internal ISA-slot.

But the niche market target remains a reasonably easy solution. Without telling the owner of Windows 7, an old computer and retro DOS games to buy a different computer, a docking station, another operating system, and some old sound adapter. DOSBox is the slower competition. But rare newbies won't have to visit ebay.de to be able to use DOSBox, and DOSBox isn't mute.

Please note that I don't know how hard it would be to re-introduce DOS sound for specific common sound adapters. I'm pointing out a niche market, without expecting support for all sound adapters. Better excellent support for a few, than bad (or no) support for all. To me it sounds (yeezzz...) like a quick-win.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Kohl on March 09, 2017, 02:42:22 pm
Maybe it can be good to discuss again what are the community favorite OS/2 applications.

About the only thing you can get rid of for sure are DATABASE.TXT's entries for outdated software and/or for users migrating from 1995's professional Windows 3.1 software to an OS/2 environment.

DATABASE.TXT, DATABASE.DAT, DBTAGS.DAT etc. need definitely an huge update. It's not only for 16-bit DOS, Windows and OS/2 applications. But also for migration of common OS/2 32 bit applications with ColorWorks and Partition Magic the latest entries. As long you're not running a SDM it will be quite useful.

Quote
An entry for modern browsers would make more sense. I do use it to install M$ Office 4.3 (or whatever) with updates to read newer M$ file formats, so don't DELTREE all Win-OS/2 software, but a true migration from DOS/Windows 3.1 to OS/2 plays no role anymore.
There are still systems that ship with an installed DOS by default from major vendors - no reason for burning bridges.

Quote
Nobody will expect that Adobe PhotoShop v0.01 will still work, without having to find out what the best settings would be. You won't sell copies of ArcaOS anymore by telling users that it's easy to migrate their software to OS/2.
Why not, but in this particular case you'll need a Macintosh emulation. More useful would be an entry for Acrobat Reader Search (for Windows 3.1). The only working solution under OS/2 for using PDF indices, to give a real-world example.

From the already published information it becomes clear that ArcaOS will not be a full-function OS. Without any hardware certification or testing procedures I cannot imagine big demand even from specialised niche market segments. I don't want to compare the whole venture with the OpenVMS porting to x64 (https://www.vmssoftware.com/products_roadmap.html (https://www.vmssoftware.com/products_roadmap.html)) ...
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Alex Taylor on March 10, 2017, 02:38:07 am
With booting from USB I meant "USB Stick", if that is not possible with ArcaOS5 there is no improvement since the last 9 years. You must be joking - or I totally misunderstand what you have written

As Lewis reported at Warpstock, this is definitely on Arca Noae's list. As he also said, not everything on the list is guaranteed to make it into the first GA release.  It's unknown at present whether or not this particular item will make it.

It's true, there are procedures to make booting from USB stick work. However, these procedures are quite tricky to abstract sufficiently that a general 'plug and play' solution can be implemented. 

Getting something to work on my system is one thing. Arranging things so that it will work on any system (without extensive system-specific fiddling) is something else. It's things like this which make the seemingly-simple because quite complicated to achieve.


Quote
- well, there is no Need to discuss the "Various important fixes" to the OS - as nobody knows what one should talk about -> because it is that "TOP SECRET"! I am not expecting miracles, I am just hoping for some of the things that have been mentioned in the presentations - in fact that hopes are all gone.

Nothing about ArcaOS is TOP SECRET. I have no idea where you got that notion from. Lewis and David both gave fairly detailed roadmap presentations at both Warpstock events last year. If you want more recent information from Arca Noae, by all means ask them. They have a contact email address.

I'd say the reason you're not getting a great deal of concrete information from threads like this is that this is simply the wrong place to ask. Most of the people here don't have exact answers, and those that do know more don't feel it's their place to make announcements on Arca Noae's behalf.

Quote
Mensys wasted so much time they invested into a new installer - and forgot to update the System. ArcaOS5 now is coming with a new installers and updated Drivers, but there is no Support for "new" Hardware classes. One can find reasons on and on, but in the end reagrading Sound, WLAN and SNAP there are no News.

You can probably assume that if there have been no announcements about new device support from Arca Noae, then there is nothing concrete to announce at the present time - not that things are being kept "secret".
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Alex Taylor on March 10, 2017, 02:44:43 am
Regarding DOS/Win: If you installed from an eCS CD then you certainly got DOS/Win support installed and configured regardless of whether you selected it or not. You would have needed to work through the config.sys removing all the unwanted DOS/Win lines and deleting the \os2\mdos directory.

Hopefully ArcaOS will not have that screwup.

I know you don't like this, but this is how OS/2 (since MCP2) installs itself. If you select no DOS support, the full MDOS (with configurable memory settings, user tools, etc.) will not be installed, but a minimal DOS VDM engine will always be installed. Certain core OS/2 components (I believe GRADD and possibly some other things) simply require VDM support, so it must always be available to the system. The IBM install program (SEINST) enforces this and it cannot be disabled.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on March 10, 2017, 02:59:39 am
Hi Alex

For years I have been told "Certain core OS/2 components simply require VDM support, so it must always be available to the system." or very similar.

Sorry, I do not believe it as I have been running eCS since 1.2 with no DOS/Win16 support available at all. The first thing I do after an eCS install is to remove all DOS/Win16 related config.sys statements - especially the double entries - and delete the \os2\mdos directory.

Possibly GRADD does require VDM support; no idea as I do not use it.

Seems nothing else needs VDM support though... unless it is some other not-used software.

Anyone else have any idea what actually needs VDM support?


Regards

Pete


Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on March 10, 2017, 05:57:42 am
What video driver are you using? Here I've always had a VDM process (currently #36) since I first switched to SNAP. What exactly it does, I'm not sure but it does seem to correlate to using GRADD based drivers.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on March 10, 2017, 08:47:33 am
With booting from USB I meant "USB Stick", if that is not possible with ArcaOS5 there is no improvement since the last 9 years. You must be joking - or I totally misunderstand what you have written

As Lewis reported at Warpstock, this is definitely on Arca Noae's list. As he also said, not everything on the list is guaranteed to make it into the first GA release.  It's unknown at present whether or not this particular item will make it.

It's true, there are procedures to make booting from USB stick work. However, these procedures are quite tricky to abstract sufficiently that a general 'plug and play' solution can be implemented. 

Getting something to work on my system is one thing. Arranging things so that it will work on any system (without extensive system-specific fiddling) is something else. It's things like this which make the seemingly-simple because quite complicated to achieve.

At OS/2 User Meeting 2013 we had a guy attending, who showed a bootable OS/2 Warp 4 (4.52) Stick with that programs like the OS/2 commander and others already worked.

DFSEE has a bootable USB Stick for years, that boots on almost any machine that allows booting from USB. I think FreeDOS is used for this. If one would Combine this stick - that is fully capable of partioning a media and so on - with a set of clones on a persistant area on the same stick, I would see no reason why this should not work. Once the choosen clone starts for the first time, it can install all the necessary rest of the needed stuff from the stick or via ANPM. That way would avoid finding a solution for OS/2 booting from USB itself. Yes, I know, this is not the way AN goes and that's OK.

Nothing about ArcaOS is TOP SECRET. I have no idea where you got that notion from. Lewis and David both gave fairly detailed roadmap presentations at both Warpstock events last year. If you want more recent information from Arca Noae, by all means ask them. They have a contact email address.

I'd say the reason you're not getting a great deal of concrete information from threads like this is that this is simply the wrong place to ask. Most of the people here don't have exact answers, and those that do know more don't feel it's their place to make announcements on Arca Noae's behalf.

Well, I repeat myself just to make it clear: the reason for this can be seen in another thread here I started some time ago. I thought it might be of Interest for not only me but a lot of users what is going on during beta stage. For this reason I decided not to contact AN as I know the have no time for this and they already said before that they have no time to Monitor the Forum. So I thought, instead of having a lot of People bothering AN with mails a Forum is a good place to ask about such a Thing and discuss it. In that thread some others already jumped in with some additional questions - that seemed to me to be the Logical and normal way of using a Forum. And another fine thing on a Forum is, that it is normaly also allowed to speculate a bit or to "dream" or to just ask other users what experiences they have.

In Addition I Point to your own Statement there http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1291.msg12109.html#msg12109 (http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1291.msg12109.html#msg12109) that I might have misunderstand "closed beta test".

Anyway, it does not make sence to talk about this anymore as I did not want to persuade anyone about something, I just would have liked to have some easy Information about wether there are three drivers in the beta testing or not, and in the end I got it. Thank you very much!
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: OS4User on March 10, 2017, 03:15:30 pm
Anyone else have any idea what actually needs VDM support?

Kernel provides two kinds of VDMs: MiniVDM and "regular" VDM.

MiniVDMs is used for: calling Int10 and int13 from a protected mode.

What ppl usually can see in a process list is a MiniVDM for Int10,  -  video driver uses it  for communicating with video BIOS.

I have never seen MiniVDM for int13.

Regular VDM is used for running  dos/win sessions. To run dos/win sessions it is necessary to set PROTECTONLY=no  and to load the list of DEVICE=C:\OS2\MDOS\*.sys

MiniVDM is working  even with PROTECTONLY=yes and no MDOS drivers installed.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Lars on March 10, 2017, 03:46:34 pm
DANIS506.ADD and also latest IBM1S506.ADD require a MiniVDM for int13. That's because they use the real mode int13 service for querying the physical disk geometry. Apparently there is no easy way to get to this Information in any other way.
There is a DevHelp to use int13 Support. I seem to remember that if you call that DevHelp, then the MiniVDM for int13 will be started automatically if it is not already running.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on March 10, 2017, 04:05:25 pm
Hi All

I'm using SNAP (currently eCS version). So I should have a VDM process running somewhere? - nothing in the eComCenter (aka WarpCenter) dropdown process list.

Using TOP I see a VDM @38, Parent PID:36 \os2\pmshell.exe, State: Blocked, which is shown as a DOS VDM when I look at Process Details. Looking at Min/Max use this item shows 0 for Total CPU, 0 for CPU%, 0 for Avg%.

Presumably "Blocked" means that either the VDM cannot be started or is in use?

Maybe the above is 1 of the miniVDMs referred to by OS4User? - but I cannot see any IRQ attached to this VDM. How do I check if it is using an IRQ?


Lars informs us that a minivDM is required for the ibm1s506/ danis506.add driver. While I am not using either the ibm or danis driver on this system I do have danis506.addt in use on an older system - without any DOS/Win16 support installed.

Either way it seems that DOS/Win16 support is not required for either of the miniVDMs  and does not need to be installed.


Regards

Pete





Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Kohl on March 10, 2017, 05:20:20 pm
Either way it seems that DOS/Win16 support is not required for either of the miniVDMs  and does not need to be installed.
No reason for misdiagnosing. For everybody who only wants to run the base operating system and nothing else (effectively nobody) that could work. There are enough features or installation procedures that rely on VDM support activated. The whole networking stuff (LAN Server etc.) ...
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on March 10, 2017, 05:48:26 pm
Hi

I don't know why we are discussing about Win16  :)  but if you want something similar to Win16 support, but an alternative of having Win16 binaries on DosBox, you need to follow the work and support this guy: https://hackernoon.com/@CantabileApp

It is not ready yet, and  the final goal it is not interesting (for me) , but I think it is a intriguing project. 

Regards
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on March 10, 2017, 06:08:35 pm
Hi All

@Andreas

I've been running eCS without DOS/Win16 support installed for years - since eCS1.2 was released.
People tell me that DOS/Win16 support is actually needed but never what it is needed for.
It is not required to run anything that I use including peer networking, ftp, seamonkey, openoffice.


@Martin
The original question was does ArcaOS honour deselection of DOS/Win16 support.
The answer from Alex seems to be No.


Maybe I am a little "thick" but it seems to me that DOS/Win16 support is required for running DOS/Win16 apps in an OS/2 VDM but nothing else. As my only use for DOS is to run a few games and these play better with sound DOSBox works better than an OS/2 VDM. Ergo, no OS/2 DOS/Win16 support is required, there are no DOS lines in config.sys and the \mdos\os2 directory does not exist.

Obviously other people have other requirements.

However, if an installer allows the user to deselect DOS/Win16 support then there should not be any DOS lines in config.sys and the \os2\mdos directory should not exist.

No doubt people will also tell me that multipt.exe is required even when using a usb mouse?



Regards

Pete


Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Schnellbacher on March 10, 2017, 06:10:35 pm
Martin, I support that completely, plus:

People, please stop that discussion about DOS or WIN16. We live in 2017 -- thank you for your understanding.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on March 10, 2017, 06:19:40 pm
Hi

I don't know why we are discussing about Win16  :)  but if you want something similar to Win16 support, but an alternative of having Win16 binaries on DosBox, you need to follow the work and support this guy: https://hackernoon.com/@CantabileApp

It's not a useful project for us as it is written in C# and basically dependent on Win64, eg mapping Win16 to Win64. Only aiming for a subset of Win16 API as well.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Kohl on March 10, 2017, 07:30:18 pm
Martin, I support that completely, plus:

People, please stop that discussion about DOS or WIN16. We live in 2017 -- thank you for your understanding.
Ok. let's move to the outdated Win32s support, the next big gap.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on March 10, 2017, 08:12:49 pm
Hi All

Seems we have to bury our heads in the sand as some people do not like an honest discussion about what an installer should do with regard to user selection.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Paul Smedley on March 10, 2017, 09:22:30 pm
Hi Sigurd!!

In Addition I Point to your own Statement there http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1291.msg12109.html#msg12109 (http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1291.msg12109.html#msg12109) that I might have misunderstand "closed beta test".

In this context - 'closed beta test' just means limited numbers of testers, vs open beta where the binaries are available to all and sundry.

Cheers,

Paul
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on March 10, 2017, 09:55:50 pm
Hi Sigurd!!

In Addition I Point to your own Statement there http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1291.msg12109.html#msg12109 (http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1291.msg12109.html#msg12109) that I might have misunderstand "closed beta test".

In this context - 'closed beta test' just means limited numbers of testers, vs open beta where the binaries are available to all and sundry.

Cheers,

Paul

Hi Paul,

thanks for your message! Yes, you are right, I may have misintrepreted it as I combined it with the Information of some beta testers in this thread that they had to sing NDAs (or whatever those are called) and so are not allowed to give Information. All this together (a closed beta, NDAs for beta testing and so on) sounded for me a bit ridiculous compared with the question (and so interest) that have been raised by me and others.

I still remember the time when I got the Merlin Beta CD, those have been the days...  ::)

All the best to you "down under" and please Keep supporting OS/2-eCS-BlueLion!
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on March 10, 2017, 11:19:27 pm
Quote
Ok. let's move to the outdated Win32s support, the next big gap.

Ok, use DOSBOX, it works there. End of discussion.

Quote
Seems we have to bury our heads in the sand as some people do not like an honest discussion about what an installer should do with regard to user selection.

Discussion is good, but don't expect to change things for the GA, at this late date. Those who are doing it just don't have the time to mess with something that isn't causing problems.

FWIW, I have often wondered about the DOS/WinOS2 junk in (eCS) CONFIG.SYS, but I never found the time, or incentive, to bother trying to change it. I do remember, years ago (probably before eCS showed up), that all of that junk was not necessary, and I am pretty sure that I was using SNAP at the time. Something to worry about AFTER the ArcaOS GA is released, and probably AFTER the necessary drivers are produced, and probably AFTER a bunch of other things. If you wish to go through the exercise of testing it all (with ArcaOS, after it is released), your input would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on March 11, 2017, 01:25:31 am
Martin, I support that completely, plus:

People, please stop that discussion about DOS or WIN16. We live in 2017 -- thank you for your understanding.

I know people who only use OS/2 for the DOS support, given a SNAP supported video card, it is better for some things then Dosbox, Dosemu or Windows.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Paul Smedley on March 11, 2017, 03:43:30 am
Hi Sigurd,

Hi Sigurd!!

In Addition I Point to your own Statement there http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1291.msg12109.html#msg12109 (http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1291.msg12109.html#msg12109) that I might have misunderstand "closed beta test".

In this context - 'closed beta test' just means limited numbers of testers, vs open beta where the binaries are available to all and sundry.

thanks for your message! Yes, you are right, I may have misintrepreted it as I combined it with the Information of some beta testers in this thread that they had to sing NDAs (or whatever those are called) and so are not allowed to give Information. All this together (a closed beta, NDAs for beta testing and so on) sounded for me a bit ridiculous compared with the question (and so interest) that have been raised by me and others.

I still remember the time when I got the Merlin Beta CD, those have been the days...  ::)

All the best to you "down under" and please Keep supporting OS/2-eCS-BlueLion!

I'm assuming there were a couple of rounds of testing (note these are my opinion only, I have a working relationship with Samba development with Arca Noae, and a friendship with Lewis, but I'm not 'in the know' so to speak).

Early testing - NDA required - very closed group. Later testing, no NDA required - extended (but not open) group of testers.

I intend to keep supporting OS/2 - website is a bit quiet, but things are happening - ie Samba 4.x netdrive plugin which will be in Blue Lion/Arca OS and GCC is still current.

My day job does keep me very busy, so I do have limited time these days - that *might* change in October after the GM plant I work at closes - but hopefully (for me at least) I find another job straight away :)

Cheers,

Paul
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Kohl on March 11, 2017, 12:20:53 pm
Quote
Ok. let's move to the outdated Win32s support, the next big gap.

Ok, use DOSBOX, it works there. End of discussion.

Thanks for providing fake news again. DOSBox is an emulator, so it would work theoretically in every emulator. But you have also to provide a Win32s capable system inside of it. How it integrates from a networking perspective? I cannot see any documentation about DOSBox networking with OS/2. Further DOSBox relies on SDL library, so there's no easy way to access remote DOS applications. So you want to tell me seriously that providing gaming in DOSBox is more important than running real business software for ArcaOS? It becomes more and more esoteric.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: André Heldoorn on March 11, 2017, 01:02:44 pm
I know people who only use OS/2 for the DOS support

Dropping DOS has no use, and not just because DOSBox' video is too slow for e.g. more modern DOS games indeed. AN itself used Win-OS/2 to promote the OS, by using the news' story of broken legacy Windows 3.1 hardware of a French airport. It's an unique selling of point of our OS. People wanting to stop using "outdated" Windows 3.1 software, while still caring about Windows software, will have "moved on" to Windows 95, in the 90s of OS/2. As stated earlier, it's a niche market. It makes no sense to try to ignore a niche market by pointing to a larger, different market. Yes, Windows 10, commercial clouds and multicore CPUs are newer than the French airport's old shit of the OS/2 2.1 era. So what? I can even think of one important reason to not drop support for slow modem connections of the 80s. :)
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on March 11, 2017, 04:05:04 pm
Taking this one step further, many OS/2 users are hanging on because their OS/2 or Win31 box is tied to a very expensive piece of hardware. I know several cases where the upgrade cost to move from OS/2 to something else is in the 10s of millions of dollars or higher. If it's working anyway, it's cheaper to support OS/2 than to move on.

But every feature deleted from ArcaOS means the chance that the old software won't run. Most of the ones I've seen are not Y2K safe, so they won't set the date or time on them.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on March 11, 2017, 05:55:58 pm
I opened other thread about "DOS / Win16" can be opened and discuss with more detail if Win16 support is "What you need" or "What you want".  - Do you really need DOS/WIN16 Support? (http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1313.0.html)

And if it is need it can be usefull to list the applications that the users are currently using. Or if it is a customer that you have and you can not name, you can say something like "A company on the airport/transportastion industry is using this XYZ (named software) under DOS or Windows16". But I think that it is important to give details on which software is needed, not just saying "I'm 75% sure that someone in a cave still needs Win16 VM and can not switch to DOSBox".  Or if it is becasue "I want" the OS run DOS/Win16 embedded as an OS/2 to just know that it is there and don't use it, thats another story.

But let's discuss it on other thread.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on March 11, 2017, 09:36:02 pm
One final comment here.

If you need DOS/WinOS2, in ArcaOS, it is still there, and probably won't be removed (but I am not the one who makes that decision). I am also pretty sure that it will NOT be updated, in any way. So what works today should continue to work. If it doesn't work today, it is highly unlikely that it will work in ArcaOS. Of course, that  depends on hardware support (including drivers), which is also the case today.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on March 12, 2017, 02:00:23 am
Hi All

To clarify my position: I have not at any time suggested that DOS/Win16 support should be dropped and I have no doubt that people still use it. My point was that if an installer offers the option of deselecting DOS/Win16 (Legacy) support then the installer should honour deselection and not install DOS/Win16 support files in \os2\mdos and should not write DOS lines to the install generated config.sys file.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Alex Taylor on March 12, 2017, 05:22:09 am
Let me clarify how this works. 

First of all, it is the OS/2 installer which acts on these selections. This same program (IBM code) is called at some point to lay down the core operating system files, no matter what distribution you are installing. This behaviour is internal to that program and within that context there is no way to prevent it.

Second, there are three basic options provided with respect to DOS and Win-OS/2 features (not including minor configuration tweaks):
Each of these options demonstrably produces a different result, so the installer certainly doesn't ignore the the setting.

In case (1), the MDOS and WINOS2 (or NLV equivalent) directories are installed and populated, normally totalling about 12 MB of files.

In case (2), the MDOS directory is populated, totalling around 1.6 MB in around 80-odd files, including a fully functional DOS system with fullscreen and windowed session support.

In case (3), the MDOS directory is populated with only 800KB in 31 files, including the VDM kernel, virtual drivers and a few core commands. However, this is a stub system only which (TTBOMK) cannot be run interactively, and probably does not include windowed session support; only the minimum files and drivers which IBM has deemed necessary by the core OS.  (There are OS/2 drivers and low-level systems which require VDM support, hence the presence of this support is to be guaranteed by the OS. This has been corroborated by people whom I consider sufficiently knowledgeable to count as authoritative.)

In other words, the user's selection is honoured in the sense that the user-level MDOS environment is not installed in the latter case.  Some DOS files are still installed because the core OS requires it, but they do not make up a user-level MDOS environment.  "Do not install DOS" should therefore be interpreted to mean "do not install the user MDOS environment".  It does not mean "do not install any kind of system VDM support", because the latter is not allowed according to what IBM has deemed to compose the core OS/2 spec.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on March 12, 2017, 06:49:09 am
Hi Alex

Thank you for the clarification.

As I have been running eCS systems for years without an \os2\mdos directory and with all DOS related lines removed from config.sys I can only surmise that I do not need or use any OS/2 drivers or low-level systems which require VDM support.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on March 12, 2017, 02:30:49 pm
Hi Sigurd,
My day job does keep me very busy, so I do have limited time these days - that *might* change in October after the GM plant I work at closes - but hopefully (for me at least) I find another job straight away :)

Cheers,

Paul

Hi Paul, I keep my fingers crossed for you!!!!
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on March 27, 2017, 03:05:26 pm
So, this is the last week of March.

The "New OS/2" news got posted on Slashdot, too early for my taste, but got posted on sunday.  "A 21st-Century Version Of OS/2 Warp May Be Released Soon (https://tech.slashdot.org/story/17/03/25/0529201/a-21st-century-version-of-os2-warp-may-be-released-soon#comments)". I was hoping that it will be better to post a news there after it got released.

Arca Noae didn't posted anything yet, so I think that the 31 March date is still on without changes.  I'm expecting to see "ArcaOS 5.0" gold this friday available for sale to the public and we also finally going to find out how much it will cost.

So, from friday it can be interesting for the community to post screenshots, questions, articles, comments about the OS. (on other threads, not this one.)

1) I'm looking forward to have screenshots and maybe a visual tutorial of the instalation process of ArcaOS 5.0 since the installer is a new one.
2) It can be interesting also to try to modify wikipedia about ArcaOS, for the moment the "Evil Wikipedians" rejected my proposal of the ArcaOS article because of the "lack of importance" of the news... those evil....
3) Any other things that will be interesting to do as a community after the release?

Regards
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on April 10, 2017, 05:33:32 am
ok, so I think this may be the final week before ArcaOS get released.

I know that many people on the community like critic all, overanalyze everything and not being surprised by anything (like good technical people) but I think it is good to maintain the optimism and see ArcaOS like a great first step for the improvement of the platform.

There are good reason to be cautious, IBM drop the platform first, Mensys/XEU just disappeared with eComStation and now a new player shows up. But for the moment there should be no prejudice with the new distro.

I remain optimistic with the OS and I have a little anxiety for it to be released. It is an important milestone so the platform can advance with other projects.

Regards
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: ivan on April 10, 2017, 12:39:17 pm
Not trying to be critical but I do have a problem.  There is absolutely no information about what is going to be incorporated in the release.  There is nothing on the AN site and all the beta testers appear very reluctant to even hint about what might be in there.

At this stage, as close as it is to the proposed release date, I would have thought they would be ramping up the publicity, if not sending out samples to the tech sites at least putting out some information.

This lack of information is disturbing to say the least and brings back memories of the eCS debacle.   Yes, they are a small company but if they still haven't got everything ready by now it doesn't say much for the future.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andi B. on April 10, 2017, 01:42:54 pm
Quote
At this stage, as close as it is to the proposed release date, I would have thought they would be ramping up the publicity, if not sending out samples to the tech sites at least putting out some information.
I would guess they do not have the time for advertising as they are working day and night to fix problems testers are reporting. I would guess they are still not satisfied with the quality of the product they currently have and do work very hard to fix bugs before releasing the product into the wild. I would guess there are an astonishing number of smaller an bigger problems which comes up when beta testers try out the product on different machines with different setups. Personally I hope (and I'm still confident) the quality of testing and so the quality of the end product will be at a much higher level than it was with eCS. But that's all guessing. We'll have to wait for an announcement. Guess at least on 15 th there will be one.

Personally I would prefer they test and improve the product until all the major problems are solved even if it would mean another delay. Here eCS with all the updates still works. I only want to install another OS/2 version when the biggest installation issues are ironed out. It does not help anyone when they release a package and when a lot of customers have troubles with installation or when it does not work as expected.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on April 10, 2017, 02:45:50 pm
Not trying to be critical but I do have a problem.  There is absolutely no information about what is going to be incorporated in the release.  There is nothing on the AN site and all the beta testers appear very reluctant to even hint about what might be in there.

At this stage, as close as it is to the proposed release date, I would have thought they would be ramping up the publicity, if not sending out samples to the tech sites at least putting out some information.

This lack of information is disturbing to say the least and brings back memories of the eCS debacle.   Yes, they are a small company but if they still haven't got everything ready by now it doesn't say much for the future.

I fully Support this text "Thumbs up" as well as this part from Andi:

Personally I would prefer they test and improve the product until all the major problems are solved even if it would mean another delay. Here eCS with all the updates still works. I only want to install another OS/2 version when the biggest installation issues are ironed out. It does not help anyone when they release a package and when a lot of customers have troubles with installation or when it does not work as expected.

But not this part:

I would guess they do not have the time for advertising as they are working day and night to fix problems testers are reporting. I would guess they are still not satisfied with the quality of the product they currently have and do work very hard to fix bugs before releasing the product into the wild. I would guess there are an astonishing number of smaller an bigger problems which comes up when beta testers try out the product on different machines with different setups. Personally I hope (and I'm still confident) the quality of testing and so the quality of the end product will be at a much higher level than it was with eCS. But that's all guessing. We'll have to wait for an announcement. Guess at least on 15 th there will be one.

I am allways wondering: how much time does it take to write 5 sentences in a Forum or in a News blog? For me it does take less than 5 Minutes. ArchaoS was announced almost 18 months ago and I would allways prefer to "spread the News" than making a "mystery" about it. I think nobody expects to much Details but I already failed with my question about some few informations before. And it is useless to open a debate about "It will be ready when it is ready" again, but keeping every Information that "closed" is contraproductive in my opinion. I.e. the Price might or should have been clear and fixed for a while now, otherwise -> how to calculate the Project? What to print on a box (if there will be one delivered at all - may be only digital delivery)....

But, let us wait and see....

Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on April 10, 2017, 04:55:28 pm
To quote Lewis on a late last night message,
Quote
Likely, it's a quick fix, but there's just that only-24-hours-in-a-day problem which keeps plaguing us. Maybe we need to find a different planet with longer days...I don't know...   :)

Yes there are still minor glitches and Arca Noae is a small company.
Myself, I don't speak for Arca Noae and only have access to the beta mailing list and am therefore reluctant to say much. The product itself is nice, nothing revolutionary in the first release.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: ivan on April 10, 2017, 08:39:16 pm
Now I am worried.  If they are fixing problems at this late stage they have a very big problem because it leaves the question 'what are they going to miss?'

I don't know what the problem is but I have a feeling that they have added too much glitz at too late a stage and things are not working well together.  Maybe they should admit that they need more time (and state why) and put the release date back a bit more or we are likely to end up as the people with win 10, being second level beta testers - not a good position to be in.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on April 10, 2017, 09:19:44 pm
Now I am worried.  If they are fixing problems at this late stage they have a very big problem because it leaves the question 'what are they going to miss?'

I don't know what the problem is but I have a feeling that they have added too much glitz at too late a stage and things are not working well together.  Maybe they should admit that they need more time (and state why) and put the release date back a bit more or we are likely to end up as the people with win 10, being second level beta testers - not a good position to be in.

Don't "worry", the product should be better than eCS 2.2b2 was. I am not sure if they will meet the April 15th deadline, but be assured that all of the testers will have a say as to whether it is ready, or not. You are probably right about adding too much glitz, too late in the game, and a couple of those things have come back to  bite them, and now they are waiting for fixes (not a good description, it is not really "glitz", it is basic functionality, that was late being delivered). Dave is also right, that everybody is busting their butts to get it right, and nobody has the time to hold hands, until the job is done.

For those who wonder what will be in it, most of it is available already (although not necessarily the versions that will be in ArcaOS). ArcaOS is just putting it all together in one package.

Be aware, that some things that may be expected, will NOT be included because of licensing concerns. If a user still wants to use them, they can download, and install, whatever they want.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Greggory Shaw on April 11, 2017, 01:49:15 am
Come down, Bama will win it all this year !
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dariusz Piatkowski on April 12, 2017, 05:27:13 am
So I recently (as in over this past weekend) renewed my AN Subscription (3rd yr in a row now)...I did not mind doing so, even though over the past year I quite honestly did not get anything new out of this support model...my 6-core AMD Phenom X6 CPU still fails to get past the dreaded WPS blue-screen on bootup...so no change there, I remain locked into the 5-core only mode.

However...reading through this thread and comparing the conversation to what has appeared in various forums and/or Warpstock presentations I do have a couple of Qs I wish someone would provide an answer for:

1) will the current AN Subscription model provide the level of "upgrades" which the overall ArcaOS is intending to do deliver as a single "package"? I ask this because I honestly view my last year's subscription costs as funding the ArcaOS project...again, part of the reason why I said "I did not mind doing so", but I am not at all clear regarding the plans for the AN Subscription and how that compares to the ArcaOS...???

2) will SNAP, whether for the GA timing, or thereafter be finally fixed to allow multiple modern displays (or heck, even older displays) to be used without any problems? In my personal experience the SNAP EDID decoding logic is broken, I attribute that to a bug, the work-around is to re-write the display EDID which quite honestly is not for the faint of heart...LOL, been there, done that, do not wish to have to do so again. SNAP has been talked about repeatedly, as a video device driver it is an incredibly important component of any modern OS and yet there have not been any updates regarding this...???

Again...I tend to "put my money where my mouth is", meaning, support the efforts through funding, whether it be something like AN Subscription or individual contributor donations (which I have done a few of in the past couple of years alone), so the least I would like to see is a clear "Release Features" list from my current vendor of choice.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andi B. on April 12, 2017, 08:37:09 am
I only want to say some words about SNAP. This is the #1 priority for me and my new system (actually more than 2 years old but still not able to use as main system cause of the video problems). There are some problems in modern BIOSes and some core graphic components of OS/2 which can not be solved in the graphic driver. Some bugs seems to be fixed, for some there only exists a vague idea how to work around. So IMHO graphic will remain a problem for some of us for another while :(

EIDE - I've not seen such problem and honestly I do not care about. If the monitor delivers wrong information or the BIOS or graphic driver does decode them wrong, I did not have a problem with it the past. And you can not do very much against a faulty monitor or BIOS except a special work around. I always setup SNAP to 'not read DDC' information and use a 'Standard monitor' device. This may not work when you use SNAP with VESA instead an accelerated driver (or Panorama) cause in this case TTBOMK SNAP/Panorama relies on what the BIOS tells them. With RGB (VGA) or DVI connected monitors it may help to cut out the DDC Pins from the connector when the monitor (or BIOS) does not work correct. Of course not doable with Display Port or HDMI.

Your wish -
Quote
to be used without any problems?
no one can fulfill I fear. Promises that every software and hardware problem (and yours seems to be very specific) will be solved can be done only by liars. But I think they work on the major known and undestood problems. Personally for me with too slow progress but I'm not in the position to judge nor to solve it by myself. From WSE presentations you can get a picture of how complex SNAP must be. And SNAP is based on some base OS/2 components (f.i. gradd) and evolved over I think more than a decade. And now unfortunately is not maintained for another decade. It's not a thing where you can find and solve a problem within a few days. From that point of view I understand that there is not that much progress we hoped for.

Though I do not speak for AN. All this is from what I read on different channels. There is still some hope that AN surprises us with a new working SNAP version next week. But I would not bet any cent on that. There are so much other high priority tasks for them to solve so I fear we've to wait another while for a major improvement with SNAP.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on April 12, 2017, 03:51:45 pm
As an Arca Noae reseller, I don't have more information than you about products and pricing.

But for video problems and ACPI problems, I will make this comment. It is very useful to developers if you go on to the Arca Noae website and make a good bug report. The bug reports you submit and follow up on make a kind of ToDo list for developers. There is no guaranty that the issue will be fixed, but it really helps your odds.

Also, if you have filled out a bug report, please post a link to it here.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on April 12, 2017, 04:57:43 pm
Hi

I'm just exited for the milestone (ArcaOS release) to be complete this Saturday.

From that point I think it will be interesting to:

- Do testing and start submitting bugs of what it does not work as suppose to.
- Start discussing which is the priority of required missing drivers.
- and.. my favorite and the one that everyone fears,... discussing the future of the platform and the close source components that nobody has access to the source code.

Regards
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dariusz Piatkowski on April 13, 2017, 05:04:33 am
Hi Neil,

...But for video problems and ACPI problems, I will make this comment. It is very useful to developers if you go on to the Arca Noae website and make a good bug report...

Great point, in my case the issue with SNAP and my monitor occured well ahead of AN even being formed...so I would say it was that in-between/twilight-zone period where there was no place to go...LOL

But...you made me curious enough to go out there and search through the tickets, what I did find was actually a very recent https://mantis.arcanoae.com/view.php?id=777 (https://mantis.arcanoae.com/view.php?id=777) ticket which appears to show the very same symptoms I experienced.

Anyways, I updated the ticket with my info, hopefully David is interested enough in this to get to the bottom. As it happens I did offer to get involved in troubleshooting this and literally working on the drivers/utility programs themselves some time ago...we are going back to early 2016 actually. Discussed this with Lewis who concluded by saying he appreciated my offer and would contact me when the work started...well, at this point in time I have yet to hear back. Again, I am not privy to the details of AN's priorities, however as a paying customer who has shown his willingness to volunteer I do doubly stand by what I said: we all should be getting a little more clarity from our vendor of choice.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andi B. on April 13, 2017, 11:12:26 am
@Dariousz - I don't think your observations with SNAP are related to the ticket which is for Panorama. But that's all to much OT for this thread anyway. If you think your problem is in SNAP then I guess it would be better to open a ticket for SNAP and explaining exactly which 2 bytes are corrupted (position). The difference which what you think is correct (Win reads it correctly?) and which you think is wrong (what SNAP reports). Anyway to much OT here....

In general the mantis bug tracker is the right place for SNAP tickets. There's even a SNAP project listed. Reading the various WSE presentations about good tickets (AFAIR David hold a presentation about at last WSE) is recommended too.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: nyao on April 13, 2017, 12:09:48 pm
I am waiting for the Japanese version, but I plan to buy an English version.
I want Japanese version. Want Japanese version. Jap...
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dariusz Piatkowski on April 15, 2017, 12:49:31 am
Hi Andi,

@Dariousz - I don't think your observations with SNAP are related to the ticket which is for Panorama. But that's all to much OT for this thread anyway. If you think your problem is in SNAP then I guess it would be better to open a ticket for SNAP and explaining exactly which 2 bytes are corrupted (position)...

Great point, I went ahead and logged an official ticket for the SNAP issue I am experiencing. For those interested, in case you also run into this, please see https://mantis.arcanoae.com/view.php?id=938 (https://mantis.arcanoae.com/view.php?id=938).
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Greggory Shaw on April 15, 2017, 11:22:19 pm
Any news yet ?
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Schnellbacher on April 15, 2017, 11:49:51 pm
Any news yet?

No info at all. Pennsylvania local time is almost 18:00 now. I'm curious.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: ivan on April 16, 2017, 12:18:10 am
Why am I getting a deja vu feeling here?

Maybe next week or the week after, maybe.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: guzzi on April 16, 2017, 12:27:28 am
I have heard a rumour that they are really quite close to release. I'd expect it really really soon.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on April 16, 2017, 01:01:34 am
Here April 15 is not over yet !!! :)
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on April 16, 2017, 02:25:22 am
I expect an announcement shortly from Lewis if he hasn't dropped dead from overwork. It's hard to get an installer working right.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Tom on April 16, 2017, 09:19:12 am
I expect an announcement shortly from Lewis if he hasn't dropped dead from overwork. It's hard to get an installer working right.

There is an announcement from Lewis Rosenthal on the Arca Noae website, titled "ArcaOS 5.0 to launch this week" :

https://www.arcanoae.com/arcaos-5-0-launch-week/

Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: ivan on April 22, 2017, 11:37:29 pm
And now that the week has passed what do we tell those that were interested?

At the moment we don't even have any ides about the hardware it is supposed to run on.  Maybe some of the beta testers could enlighten us as to the hardware they used.

Will it run on AMD processors with integrated video like the 2650 AM1 APU or the latest AMD Ryzen 7?

Can it run the hard disks in AHCI mode or do they have to be set to IDE?

How well does it work with UEFI and what setting are important?

These are the type of concerns that both old and new users will have.  I know we do because we are looking to equip a client with mini-ITX AM1 based units as replacements for systems dating from 1988 (these mini_ITX units will fit in the existing cases and if we use the ASRock AM1H-ITX we don't have to worry about trying to fit the power supply because they use a standard 19v laptop supply which even powers the SATA hard disks).

Will we get answers or will there be a deathly silence aka eCS?
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on April 23, 2017, 01:05:25 am
Hi ivan

I am not a tester for Arca Noae but I think I can answer some of your questions.

UEFI: 1 setting is most important for OS/2 based systems - Legacy or Compatiblity Mode must be On. Other settings relate to the hardware in use eg whether to use SATA disks in (E)IDE or AHCI mode.

AHCI: As Arca Noae have released an AHCI driver, 1.32, in the past and David responded to a bug report with words to the effect of "Version 2 of the driver should resolve the issue in the near future" I would be very surprised if AHCI support was absent - it may even contain Version 2.

If you need to know whether this, hopefully soon, release will work on specific hardware that no-one else has tested or used you will probably have to do the research yourself - half the fun of OS/2 based systems  :-)


Regards

Pete


Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: ivan on April 23, 2017, 01:30:10 am
Thanks Pete,

The UEFI Legacy/Compatibility mode setting I what I assumed it should be from my reading up on it (strangely enough the ASRock board we got for testing has those settings on by default). 

The AHCI driver is good to know about but there are far too many unknowns but I expect we will eventually get it working even if we have to make a tailored image and copy that across.

We can use DFSee (boot from USB floppy, USB stick or CD) to see and partition any hard disks so we are part way there.  The eCS 2.2 demo throws a wobbly saying it can't read the hard disk (partitioned but not formatted) but then it never liked any of our AMD powered workstations anyway.

I just wish that there was some information available about what HW this new installer is supposed to install on - Intel, AMD, current, 1 or more years old etc. rather than a complete silence.
 
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on April 23, 2017, 01:56:27 am
Hi ivan

Well, if the objective for ArcaOS is to be the way forward for businesses running OS/2 on fairly recent/current hardware then I guess the main target is AMD/Intel 64bit and mutlicore systems.

However, there will surely be a lot of support for earlier hardware.

What there will not be is support for "leading edge" hardware such as the latest in gamer workstations with super-douper graphics.

I've not had a lot of problems installing various releases of eCS to various AMD64/Multicore systems over the years - especially since David took over ACPI development. However, we all have different experiences and I'm sure you have a list of problems encountered...


About AHCI: I have 2 versions of AHCI 1.32 (current release) here. Version 1 is by David and supplied with eCS 2.2 beta2; Version2 is the Arca Noae release, also by David. Version 1 recognises and works with the onboard SATA controller dedicated to eSATA; Version 2 totally ignores that controller. David assures me the binary code for both drivers is identical... This is the problem that, hopefully, the AHCI Version 2 driver will resolve.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on April 23, 2017, 02:00:00 am
I don't think that ArcaOS is going have much different drivers then eCS2.2b2+all the Arca Noae updates. Some stuff has been updated and there are a few new OS components but most of the effort has gone into design, which I think is fairly good, and the new installer, which has turned out to be harder then thought.
Once 5.0 is released, the Arca Noae team can go back to updating drivers and writing the needed wifi, usb3 etc drivers instead of working on the installer etc.
I'd guess that buying 5.0 will also include a subscription.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Alex Taylor on April 23, 2017, 07:12:57 am
I wouldn't expect significantly different hardware support than is currently available through the latest subscription drivers.  What is supported through those should give you a pretty solid idea of what hardware ArcaOS will support.

I believe some very old NIC drivers (various MCA and ISA boards, mainly) are not going to be included out of the box due to the virtual impossibility of supporting them on modern hardware.  However, the installation of third-party drivers is allowed for.

(Note: I am not speaking on behalf of Arca Noae.)
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on April 23, 2017, 08:06:49 am
Quote
At the moment we don't even have any ides about the hardware it is supposed to run on.  Maybe some of the beta testers could enlighten us as to the hardware they used.

If your machine will run eCS, it will run ArcaOS. If your devices have a driver today, ArcaOS will use the driver (even if you need to supply it yourself). Be aware, that a few drivers are not being included because of licensing concerns, but that doesn't mean they won't work, if you want to install them. If your machine will not run eCS 2.2b2, it is unlikely (but not impossible) that ArcaOS will run on it.

For my part, I have tested on:
-Lenovo ThinkPad T510. Intel.
-Lenovo ThinkPad L530 (UEFI). Intel.
-Asus M3A78-EM quad core. AMD.
-Asus M3A78-EM triple core. AMD.
-Dell Dimension 4300. AMD, I think.
-VirtualBox, under win 10, using various configurations.

I intend to install on:
-My antique IBM ThinkPad A22e. Intel. (eCS 2.2b2 works as well as it can with only 256 meg).
-My main system Asus A88XM-A (UEFI). AMD. (eCS 2.2b2 works pretty well. I expect that ArcaOS will be better).
when they fix a couple of problems in the installer, that are proving to be difficult.

I must say that the final product, once it is installed, is running very well. IMO it is definitely a step up from eCS 2.2b2. The new installer is being somewhat stubborn, but it will be in shape, when ArcaOS is released.

Quote
Can it run the hard disks in AHCI mode or do they have to be set to IDE?

Arca Noae developed the AHCI driver, so it will be included. To be specific, if the driver is in the Arca Noae driver pack, it will also be in ArcaOS.

Quote
How well does it work with UEFI and what setting are important?

As long as the machine BIOS has "Legacy Mode", it should work. Apparently, there are a few machines that don't have that feature.

Quote
Will we get answers or will there be a deathly silence aka eCS?

That depends on whether they have carted Lewis off to a padded cell, or not. He (and others) is working his tail off, trying to get this right. 

To be quite honest, the best answer is "You won't know, for sure, until you try it". That is pretty much the same as it has always been with any version of OS/2, and any new machine. There are always surprises. More often good, than bad, in my experience.

You will probably want to install on a test machine, or in a virtual machine, to see what the installer does, before you try it on a live machine. The installer is a little different, but similar, so users who are familiar with the eCS installer could easily get themselves into trouble, if they don't pay attention to what they are doing. As usual, trying to install, when windows, has hogged the whole disk, is going to be "interesting", but the tools to do it are there, and it has always worked, for me, after I figured out what needs to be done. As usual, be sure that you have a GOOD backup, BEFORE you mess something up.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Paul Smedley on April 23, 2017, 10:25:38 am
Hi Doug,

Quote
Can it run the hard disks in AHCI mode or do they have to be set to IDE?

Arca Noae developed the AHCI driver, so it will be included. To be specific, if the driver is in the Arca Noae driver pack, it will also be in ArcaOS.

Not quite true re: AHCI. Arca Noae currently *maintain* the AHCI driver - they did not develop. In fact, Arca Noae didn't even exist when the AHCI driver development started.

See the original checkins at https://trac.netlabs.org/ahci/timeline?from=Apr+23%2C+2017&daysback=4000&authors=&milestone=on&ticket=on&changeset=on&wiki=on&update=Update for confirmation.

Cheers,

Paul
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on April 23, 2017, 06:42:21 pm
Quote
Not quite true re: AHCI. Arca Noae currently *maintain* the AHCI driver - they did not develop.

Sorry, I did mean to say "maintain", not "develop". It was late.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on April 23, 2017, 09:48:18 pm
Here is a text I just posted at os2.org in German and translated it "on the fly" using Bing Translator (Inverted text is written by another user there):

Sepp Mayr wrote:

A little relaxation could do no harm here some of the discussions.

I try to relax, although on OS should appear only on the 31.3.17, then the 15.4.17 and it so far except one 'beware, it might soon go' - announcement nothing further happened.


As I see it. Especially since you can supplement that the system originally quarter of 2016 has been announced for the 3.te, and - also ruptured - stating "come's this week" we were already at 5 shifts.


Of course you can write what you want, nothing will come faster or earlier. Anyway, you can see all of two pages:


-"Better it wrong he adjusted as cooking does not come"


a.) Yes, you can agree only the principle,


on the other hand, it is a purely rhetorical lump-sum argument that you can apply anywhere, and here in the particular case:


(b).) the same argument was already thoroughly performed at eCS in the field

c.) it's always like that you better fail his cleaned up things as not at all


The disastrous external representation by Arca Noae remains unfortunate from my point of view but in terms of everything that goes on ArcaOS since the first deadline (30.9.2016):


-There are announcements on the part of Arca Noae only if (even used) deadlines have already passed


-in forums there are no messages, justification for this: "You don't have time and sit constantly at completion"

-> that seems, to say, downright ridiculous! To just give a hint in a forum: "So and so" requires maximum 5 to 10 minutes. Such reasons but unfortunately cause falling credibility in my view into a bottomless pit.


-If other users or "beta testers (see os2world) to want to say something, must you first make it clear that you speak"in the name of ArcaNoae", and on the basis of these or those agreements can say anything to: so please - worse it's not!" What could be revealed here for incredible secrets? Even IBM seems not to itch it, that almost all versions of OS/2 Herum whiz freely available on the Internet, but ArcaNoae has created now of course product a "top secret"!


Or this information here:


aschn wrote:

Some unofficial info (so vaguely) to the delay, as far as I can assess it from a distance, and the wait easier:


An important component of the system to the installation, which is incorrect and out of date, has been replaced. In tests, it has arisen that the new component in all constellations to the original works.


In my opinion that's worth for a delay.


Also this throughout the eCS/Mensys (unfortunately) classical style: if already a delay of over six months on the last minute is an "important" component of system (huh... Please not that mention that his könnte...huhuhuhuuuu...) not working properly, what is then first with the "not important system components"? And what prevents to announce a price for the product in this context it or for more information about the system?


Currently for half a year only negative information remain hanging, instead you would have much positive to publish may already with more openness, notes to any previously unsupported hardware or something. But - it couldn't be easier - if there is information about such questions, next version will over time to the direct (5.01 or 5.1)verwiesen. Looks too familiar (we had also already once in the 90's on Windows, I think...).


Everything I read / see can is that apparently not much to the eCS 2.2Beta2 will do State themselves, except that there will be a new installer, which you apparently - as Thorolf believed right from the outset - has wore.


Contrary to earlier (eCS) time, I must confess, that no longer upsets me, I think it's just very unfortunate that also ArcaNoae same mistakes, the same approach and same arguments is again doing to annihilate the tedious and built by good driver development reputation even when the last homeopathic existing residual fraction of users.


I would let me but of course very happy to a better teaching, then please still before there are only laptops more BIOS containing a CSM/compatibility mode in the UEFI.

Last edited by Sigurd on Sun 23 Apr 2017, 21:35, a total of 1 times changed.


OS/2 versus hardware - maximum warp!
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: guzzi on April 23, 2017, 11:19:26 pm
Here are some answers, this was just posted on the arca noae site:

 ArcaOS 5.0: Blue Lion is coming

The final beta for ArcaOS 5.0 is due for release to beta testers within hours. We’ve spent considerable time nailing down the last of what we consider to have been critical issues (likely installation pitfalls) to ensure that our users are able to get the operating system installed and get on with using and enjoying the new version as soon as possible. While our intent was to provide more details along the way, our focus has remained on the software, and as we are all engineers here, in one form or another, we’ve all been engaged in developing and testing.

Meanwhile, some announcements:

Pricing for ArcaOS 5.0 will be in two tiers, set apart by the level and length of support and maintenance bundled with each. The personal license will retail for $129, with an introductory price of $99 for the first 90 days following release. This includes six months of support and maintenance updates and fixes. The commercial license is priced at $229, and includes one year of support and maintenance. Subscription services will be available for each version and it will be possible to bundle extended support and maintenance subscriptions at the time of ArcaOS license purchase.

Volume discounts will be available, as well, with different discount levels for personal and commercial licenses.
This entry was posted in Arca Noae, Community, New software releases, News and tagged 5.0, arca noae, arcaos,
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on April 23, 2017, 11:39:39 pm
Quote
ArcaOS 5.0: Blue Lion is coming

No doubt about that.

Quote
The final beta for ArcaOS 5.0 is due for release to beta testers within hours.

We, the testers, will determine if it is ready, but the final call will be made by the principles in Arca Noae. Another day, if all goes well. A couple of days, if not, unless something very serious is discovered.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: ivan on April 23, 2017, 11:55:03 pm
Quote
ArcaOS 5.0: Blue Lion is coming

Six months time, maybe. 

If they are only now getting down to real beta testing and those testers do a real test it will take at least that long and we still don't know what new hardware it will install on - if we can install it we can generally run it.

It would help if a FULL list of what hardware the testers have available so we, the end users, would know if we need to 'go it alone' and endeavour to install on new hardware or wait and then try with this new installer.

OK, so we now know what the costs are but it is still a toss up between the new installer and just getting the drivers.
 
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: guzzi on April 24, 2017, 12:28:11 am
Quote
ArcaOS 5.0: Blue Lion is coming

Six months time, maybe. 
 

A few days seems more likely. I was not part of the beta test team but I have installed a beta version on my pc today. As far as I can tell the drivers are the latest versions i.e. acpi.psd 3.23.05 is able to use much higher irq then before. I see another bootloader (arcaloader 1.04), kernel 14.200.

A list of tested hardware would be handy, I agree- I suspect however that that is hardly a priority at the moment.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on April 24, 2017, 12:42:07 am
Quote
Six months time, maybe.

I will be very surprised if it is 3 days.

Quote
If they are only now getting down to real beta testing and those testers do a real test it will take at least that long and we still don't know what new hardware it will install on - if we can install it we can generally run it.

The installer is really the only part left to test in depth. It mostly worked for beta 16. As for the hardware, how many times do you need to be told "If it works today, with eCS, it will likely work with ArcaOS", possibly with a few pleasant surprises.

Quote
It would help if a FULL list of what hardware the testers have available so we, the end users, would know if we need to 'go it alone' and endeavour to install on new hardware or wait and then try with this new installer.

It doesn't matter what hardware the testers use, there will always be some differences, and those differences could cause problems, or, let it work. I have two Asus M3A78-EM machines. One is a quad core, and one is a triple core. One of the betas had a problem where it installed, and ran okay, on the triple core. It installed okay, on the quad core, but got into a reboot loop, almost immediately after the OS/2 blob. So, if I say it works with an Asus M3A78-EM motherboard, I am telling the truth, but if you try it, and it doesn't work, you will call me a liar. Arca Noae is a small company, they cannot possibly do the testing that a company like IBM did. That does mean that there are more things that can, and will, be missed. So, we are back to the statement: "You won't know, for sure, until you try it".

Quote
OK, so we now know what the costs are but it is still a toss up between the new installer and just getting the drivers.

From what I know, the drivers will be available with the Arca Noae driver package. I am not sure that the new, Arca Noae patched, kernel will be available that way. I could be wrong.

I did a test today: I was able to run the Clamd.exe, that is in the netlabs-rel repository (it uses a HUGE amount of upper shared memory - about 1.2 GB), Firefox, AOO 4.13, and a few other things, all at the same time. All were set to use upper shared memory, and they all worked together. Try that with eCS, it won't work, without problems, even if you leave out Clamd.exe. ArcaOS is like a breath of fresh air.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: ivan on April 24, 2017, 12:32:13 pm
Hi Doug, thanks for your input.

Quote
The installer is really the only part left to test in depth. It mostly worked for beta 16. As for the hardware, how many times do you need to be told "If it works today, with eCS, it will likely work with ArcaOS", possibly with a few pleasant surprises.

Only one problem here we don't have eCS (ACP2 for us) and all I know about its installer is what I have read here and things I have gleaned from the eCS 2.2 DEMO iso which almost worked on one of our workstations.

This is why I have been concerned by the dearth of information available.  It also makes me wonder I we will have to 'roll our own' bootable CD/DVD just as we did in the past.

Quote
I am not sure that the new, Arca Noae patched, kernel will be available that way.

Now that is very interesting.  What is it patched for becomes the obvious question but I suspect that you are not allowed to divulge that information.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: guzzi on April 24, 2017, 03:05:21 pm

Now that is very interesting.  What is it patched for becomes the obvious question but I suspect that you are not allowed to divulge that information.


Doug mentioned the much better behaviour re upper shared memory. So at a guess....
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on April 24, 2017, 04:40:37 pm
Yes it seems to handle high memory much better., might be other changes that I haven't heard of.  I'd guess that the license doesn't allow it to be distributed by itself.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: ivan on April 24, 2017, 06:10:48 pm
Doesn't that depend on if IBM supplied the source code or if it is just a patch?  If the latter then I would think the patch file could be distributed on its own but, these things all depend on just how the contract with IBM is worded (if it is like any of the government we have had to work to they not only dot the i and cross the t but give you a list of them as well).
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Schnellbacher on April 24, 2017, 06:34:11 pm
AFAIK, kernel changes are patches in memory.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on April 24, 2017, 08:48:47 pm
Hi ivan

Doesn't that depend on if IBM supplied the source code or if it is just a patch?  If the latter then I would think the patch file could be distributed on its own but, these things all depend on just how the contract with IBM is worded (if it is like any of the government we have had to work to they not only dot the i and cross the t but give you a list of them as well).

For what I recall on Warpstock 2015 (st Louis) when Lewis announced Blue Lion, he told there was not OS/2's source code involved on the agreement, but that does not mean they can not patch IBM's binaries. Lewis make me understand that they have permission to patch whatever is necessary on IBM's binaries. But it will be better if he can explain that someday, or ask him directly (on chat) on Warpstock Europe that is comming next month.

Regards
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Greg Pringle on April 24, 2017, 08:55:44 pm
If the team is "patching" the kernel in memory my hat is off to them. I used to do some hacking and patching of binaries and it can be very challenging. I would patch the actual binary file. (for the uninitiated a patch simply over writes a section of the program permanently). Doing this in memory, on the fly is a real trick.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Schnellbacher on April 24, 2017, 09:09:07 pm
BTW: I vaguely remember that from a presentation of Steve. He and (probably even more) Holger are responsible for the improvements, AFAIK. They've made loading DLLs into high memory usable. That's the main reason I can't await ArcaOS.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on April 25, 2017, 12:03:51 am
Pretty sure it is the binary that is patched,
Code: [Select]
W:\>bldlevel OS2KRNL
Build Level Display Facility Version 6.12.675 Sep 25 2001
(C) Copyright IBM Corporation 1993-2001
Signature:       @#IBM:14.200#@_SMP  IBM OS/2 Kernel
Vendor:          IBM
Revision:        14.200
File Version:    14.200
Description:     _SMP  IBM OS/2 Kernel

There is also a rewritten os2ldr that should help with installing on modern hardware amongst other stuff and a couple of other goodies along the same lines. Apologies for being vague, but I don't want to speak for Arca Noae as I'm just a tester. Hopefully at some point soon Lewis will make some big announcements but I think he is very overworked and just doesn't have time to show up here or do much else.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: ivan on April 25, 2017, 12:39:02 am
Quote
Hopefully at some point soon Lewis will make some big announcements but I think he is very overworked and just doesn't have time to show up here or do much else.

While I agree with you to a certain extent, I do have to say it is not good business strategy to leave potential customers in the dark and frustrated.  I learned that to my cost 40 odd years ago.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andi B. on April 25, 2017, 08:14:26 am
While I agree with you to a certain extent, I do have to say it is not good business strategy to leave potential customers in the dark and frustrated.  I learned that to my cost 40 odd years ago.
Sure but at first you have to know who are your customers. Of course we are all here customers but most of us are hobbyist who only buy a few licenses at most. Face the facts, it's perfectly understandable that companies have other priorities than constantly watching newsgroups of hobbyists. Sad but true.

Or is there anyone here who is interested in more than 20 licenses? Martin, maybe worth a poll - "How many licenses will you buy if AN works for you?" I've the strong feeling that all the people here will not even pay one month of development :( Hope I'm wrong though.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Eduardo Vila Echagüe on April 25, 2017, 09:47:47 pm
As said in a previous reply, running ArcaOS in new laptops is pointless if wireless is not supported. At the same time to write drivers for every possible wireless card is too expensive.

Wouldn't it be better to write a driver for one or two popular USB wireless adapters, which everybody can use?

Eduardo Vila Echagüe
Santiago, Chile
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on April 25, 2017, 10:31:07 pm
Quote
Wouldn't it be better to write a driver for one or two popular USB wireless adapters, which everybody can use?

From what I understand, the actual drivers are being developed by simply compiling the BSD drivers for OS/2. That has been done. The "problem" is that there is no interface to XWLAN (or something that does the same thing) to control the radio, and do the wireless logon. That part is still not complete, but, apparently, it is one of the highest priorities on the Arca Noae job list.

Quote
running ArcaOS in new laptops is pointless if wireless is not supported

Not really. There are other options, like using wired connections, or using one, of the many, adapters that connect to the laptop by wired NIC, and to WiFi by radio. Personally I use a D-Link L-506 device, which is useful for other things too (including charging my cell phone, if I need it). However, I am looking forward to having a proper driver, with support, for my WiFi adapters, mostly because the D-Link adapter is also being used as a WiFi extender.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: guzzi on April 25, 2017, 11:34:27 pm
Simple install with default settings works well here.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on April 26, 2017, 02:08:57 am
As said in a previous reply, running ArcaOS in new laptops is pointless if wireless is not supported. At the same time to write drivers for every possible wireless card is too expensive.

Wouldn't it be better to write a driver for one or two popular USB wireless adapters, which everybody can use?

Eduardo Vila Echagüe
Santiago, Chile

If you're offering to write one, then more power to you. Good luck!

If not, then why not use a WiFi bridge, which only requires Ethernet and a web browser?
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dariusz Piatkowski on April 26, 2017, 04:33:32 am
Hi Andi,

...Or is there anyone here who is interested in more than 20 licenses? Martin, maybe worth a poll - "How many licenses will you buy if AN works for you?" I've the strong feeling that all the people here will not even pay one month of development :( Hope I'm wrong though.

Good point...in fact having now purchased the AN Subscription license for 3 years in a row I am curious how many of us in this forum (for example) have chosen to support/fund the on-going development of OS/2 solutions in such a manner?

As I mentioned in another post, I always thought of this subscription fee as enabling some sort of continuous work being done...not sure though since as best as I can tell there has never been a publicly stated "balance sheet" of how many such individual contributors we have and how many "corporate" clients there are that fund the remaining parts.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andi B. on April 26, 2017, 09:09:20 am
Quote
...has never been a publicly stated "balance sheet" of how many such individual contributors we have and how many "corporate" clients there are that fund the remaining parts.
Such information for some bww projects is available. But of course these are most of the times sensible informations no company will ever open completely. Moreover what does it help anyone when you know how many outstanding depts or funds AN has? Just another feed for the trolls on forums who do nothing real work on improving our platform but blathering (like me in this post ;) , better going back programming now...)
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on April 26, 2017, 03:18:59 pm
Hi All

Maybe the ArcaOS beta testers can answer this: Is it possible to deselect ANPM/yum/rpm and all associated packages during installation?

Reason: Having established that the rpm release of cups is a non-working release I will need to install cups from zip/wpi and do not want to encounter any problems caused by yum/rpm installed software.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on April 26, 2017, 08:28:23 pm
Quote
Maybe the ArcaOS beta testers can answer this: Is it possible to deselect ANPM/yum/rpm and all associated packages during installation?

Not easily. You can install without CUPS, and the older CUPS should work as it always did. However, I suggest at least trying CUPS with ArcaOS, because it does work well, for me (although I don't know what you can do about BJNP).
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Schnellbacher on April 26, 2017, 09:02:23 pm
For me it seems as if the best way is to fix it if there are problems. Pete, you've made the entry in the bug tracker, which is essential.

I don't understand, why you make the other noise here. The only dependency that I see is that the next Arca OS will probably contain a version of CUPS that won't work with the subsystem for Canon printers. It's not an Arca OS bug and it's not an RPM bug. If your analysis will be proved as true (I think it will), then finding out where the bug lies is much more valuable as posting a general warning here, in this forum.

The amount of people, who test stuff before it gets released, is much, much too little. Therefore inputs like the current one from you are extremely important.

(This is my individual opinion.)
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Pete on April 26, 2017, 10:33:34 pm
Hi

@Doug
Hmmm....
The problem is that ANPM/yum/rpm installs some files as standard which may cause problems with the non-rpm cups.
It is totally pointless trying cups included with ArcaOS as there is no means of connecting to the printer - no bjnp for wireless connectivity and usb does not work for "wired" connectivity.

@Andreas
The reason for "the other noise here" is that other users can point out my mistakes and help get software/hardware working - sometimes using a "work around" rather than a fix. Without the help of people in another discussion - see http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1341.0.html - I would probably have given up on trying the rpm cups when cupsd simply would not start.


Regards

Pete



Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Greg Pringle on April 26, 2017, 11:00:44 pm
I sure hope Acranoae is not going the way of Microsoft which would release "vapor" ware and would never come anywhere close to deadlines when they did release.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on April 26, 2017, 11:08:21 pm
Microsoft releases are pretty much on time these days.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on April 27, 2017, 12:17:39 am
Hi

I don't think that ArcaOS is vaporware, I haven't seen the signs of it. One of the signs of vaporware is announcing unrealistic things and for the moment Arca Noae has offered very "down to earth" features for ArcaOS, and of course, we have the evidence that some people in the community (closer to Arca) are playing with the Beta versions. So it is not VaporWare, I'm 97% sure that we are going to see ArcaOS released. (The rest 3% involves deaths, global destruction, nuclear wars, etc)

Maybe (I'm being sassy here) there are some kind of Rock Stars problems (http://www.infoworld.com/article/2615814/it-training/6-home-truths-about-rockstar-developers.html). We can see on Arca Noae's team that there are very...very...very OS/2 skilled people involved, so there may be too many opinions that want everything perfect... and perfect is the enemy of good. I'm being very sassy and speculative about this, so there is there is no need to reply, since my guessing may not be real.

Regards
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on April 27, 2017, 04:13:06 am
ArcaOS itself is basically done, it's just the installer, which is hard. People have different systems and people want to install in different ways and Arca Noae wants it working well.
The truth is that 5.0 is probably going to have some rough edges, mostly when it comes to install and reading the documentation is going to be important.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on April 27, 2017, 08:32:38 am
Quote
Maybe (I'm being sassy here) there are some kind of Rock Stars problems. We can see on Arca Noae's team that there are very...very...very OS/2 skilled people involved, so there may be too many opinions that want everything perfect... and perfect is the enemy of good.

There are no "rock stars" involved, and you are correct that those who are doing the job are exceptional people. The main problem is that there are not enough of them, and every one of them is overloaded. Unfortunately, one section of the installer has proven to be somewhat dangerous, as it was implemented, and it is not easy to change it to make it more difficult for a user to hurt themselves.

Quote
The truth is that 5.0 is probably going to have some rough edges, mostly when it comes to install and reading the documentation is going to be important.

I will second that statement. The rough spot is in selecting what to install, and where, Be sure to READ the documentation, and be very careful to check that your selections are correct in the summary, before you continue. We, the testers, are not sure what they are doing to it, but it should be okay, if not elegant. This whole section will probably be changed for ArcaOS 5.1.

I will reiterate that users should have a GOOD backup of everything, and it would probably be a good idea to try the new installer on a test system, or in a virtual machine, to see what the new installer does, before you try it on a live system. The installer is similar to the eCS installer (after all, how many ways are there to install OS/2?), but there are some differences, and if the user isn't paying attention, they can get themselves into trouble.

Those who are planning to install to a machine that has a "factory" windows installed (especially if it has a recovery partition), will need to do some work to adjust the windows partitions to make room for ArcaOS, and to make the partitions fit the OS/2 way of doing partitions. Do NOT attempt to do that with any windows, or *nix, tools, or you will probably make things worse, unless you are very, very, lucky. There is a tool in ArcaOS to do it, and it works. The hard part is to shrink a recovery partition that extends past the last full cylinder on a disk. The tool does not have a good way to do the smallest required adjustment, so you need to move a large bar, by the smallest possible amount. Tricky, but possible, and you may lose a little more than what is necessary. Fortunately, that doesn't seem to matter (at least on my Lenovo ThinkPads T510, and L530). A working eCS installation should be simple, but there is no migration (which never worked anyway, even if it looked like it was okay), and there are a few differences in directory layouts, which may require a bit of adjustment, after install. I would suggest adjusting to the ArcaOS layout, when necessary.

At the moment, the installer should be workable, and the final result is actually pretty spectacular, if not perfect. I am pretty sure that there will be some problems that slip past the testers, but we tried.   :)
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Mathias on April 27, 2017, 10:19:57 am
DY> The truth is that 5.0 is probably going to have some rough edges, mostly when it comes to install and reading the documentation is going to be important.

Rough edges on an OS/2 operating system? Documentation needed? Sounds familiar and like back then with IBM. *hehe*
Joking aside, imo the ArcaNoae team is doing very well, also keeping in mind, that man power and ressources are limited (in comparisation to back then with IBM). Coming up with an amazing project like this and finishing works in such a short development time, I think, is truely great!
Good stuff will take it's time and we have waited for such a long time, I think we can also spend a couple of more weeks before "boxing day.." ; )
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Eugene Tucker on April 30, 2017, 02:04:28 am
Well I have to say I am as anxious as anyone for Arca OS 5.0 to be released.  I do have to say I do think it is wise for Arca Noae to be sure it is working as right as possible. So I have a machine ready to put it on. so I eagerly await its arrival, but understand the reason for the delay.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Tom on April 30, 2017, 01:56:24 pm
There is a new post by Lewis Rosenthal on the Arca Noae website:

https://www.arcanoae.com/arcaos-5-0-licensing-fits-together-existing-subscriptions/
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Kevin Nunn on May 02, 2017, 03:12:41 am
I just saw the basic install screenshot of ArcaOS5 and noticed the multiple desktop manager. Will Object Desktop 2.0 still run on ArcaOS? I currently have it on my eCS 1.2MR install.

Anxiously waiting the release, even picked up another Thinkpad T43 to put it on. 

Thanks,

Kev
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andy Willis on May 02, 2017, 04:16:53 am
I just saw the basic install screenshot of ArcaOS5 and noticed the multiple desktop manager. Will Object Desktop 2.0 still run on ArcaOS? I currently have it on my eCS 1.2MR install.

I don't have a copy of Object Desktop to be able to test it but there is no reason I know of for it to not work.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Richard Crowley on May 07, 2017, 10:14:44 pm
Hi
Do you have any plan on where to try it out?
Regards

My problem with the new release is that I am still using Merlin and Warp Server for eBusiness on some of my production machines. I would like to listen and visit with others to hear any negative or positive reactions, whether ArcaOS can identify more than 4GB RAM on a 32-bit and if it will work on semi-new machines. Other than that, it would be nice to have some more diagnostic tools and easy access to server equipment (I mean currently supported servers like Dell PowerEdge or Lenovo ThinkServer. Otherwise, I am watching carefully. :)
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on May 08, 2017, 06:08:27 am
Quote
I just saw the basic install screenshot of ArcaOS5 and noticed the multiple desktop manager. Will Object Desktop 2.0 still run on ArcaOS? I currently have it on my eCS 1.2MR install.

I know nothing about Object Desktop. I need to ask what you mean by "multiple desktop manager". If you mean XPager, yes it is part of XWorkplace, so it is included. If that is compatible with Object Desktop, it should be okay. If not, then you have the choice to leave out XWorkplace, although that will eliminate some of the nice things.

None of this is new, although there are updates to XWorkplace that may cause an incompatibility, but I suspect that the updates are more likely to fix an incompatibility. Try it, it is already available at HOBBES (without the Arca Noae exclusive parts). Look for XWorkplace Lite, it is almost identical to the ArcaOS version.

Quote
whether ArcaOS can identify more than 4GB RAM on a 32-bit and if it will work on semi-new machines.

OS/2 has not changed. It never did, and it probably (most definitely) never will, support more than 4 GB of memory (actually closer to 3.5 GB). However, there is a RAMDISK that uses memory above what OS/2 can normally use. I am running ArcaOS beta on multiple machines that have more than 4 GB of memory, and they all work well. Two of them are UEFI BIOS, running with Compatibility (Legacy) mode enabled. You must have that to run OS/2 on a UEFI BIOS machine.

Quote
Otherwise, I am watching carefully.

I am not too sure what you think will be in ArcaOS, that doesn't already exist. The big change (other than the installer) seems to be that there is a new kernel, that better supports upper shared memory, but it appears that that is still not perfect. Upper shared memory has nothing to do with memory above the 32 bit address capabilities.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Mathias on May 08, 2017, 09:36:48 am
@ Doug Bissett:
Yes, I've heard about the 4 GB barrier and the ram disk that reaches beyond this limit. Afaik Lewis Rosenthal said so @ Warpstock, but he did not mention the limit beyond that limit. ; )
How big can this ram drive become?
I am running virtual machines that are stored on ram drives, currently on Linux and Windows. (depending on what the customer needs). So, when I heard him saying 4 GB of RAM will be the limit, I was quite disappointed, but then he continued saying "but we DO support RAM drives beyond that 4 GB barrier". So.. this made me quite confident, still he left open HOW big this drive can become. Do you know more?
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Kevin Nunn on May 08, 2017, 04:22:51 pm
Quote
I know nothing about Object Desktop. I need to ask what you mean by "multiple desktop manager". If you mean XPager, yes it is part of XWorkplace, so it is included. If that is compatible with Object Desktop, it should be okay. If not, then you have the choice to leave out XWorkplace, although that will eliminate some of the nice things.

Thanks for the reply. I figured the desktop manager was Xpager, I remember using XWorkPlace, but soon replaced it with Object Desktop (which wasn't free, but is really good). https://www.stardock.com/products/od20/preview/whatsnew.htm (https://www.stardock.com/products/od20/preview/whatsnew.htm)

Once I get ArcaOS5, I'll try out XWorkPlace for a bit and see if it is better than OD2, if not I can install OD2 and go with that.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Greg Pringle on May 08, 2017, 04:34:55 pm
It would seem to me that the statement "new kernel, that better supports upper shared memory, but it appears that that is still not perfect." is a real problem. This should have been the highest priority. What good is a fantastic installer when the system crashes at will. I have used OS/2 since 2.1 and have put up with that behavior for years. It was not bad until the latest crop of applications started needing high memory. Now, any extended use of those applications will cause system failure. Not a production OS for users. I have servers running with OS/2 with no problem as long as they do not push the use of high memory. That cannot continue if OS/2 wants to continue.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Olafur Gunnlaugsson on May 08, 2017, 07:34:15 pm
Once I get ArcaOS5, I'll try out XWorkPlace for a bit and see if it is better than OD2, if not I can install OD2 and go with that.

I think you will find that most of the OD2 package has been made outdated by the features of XWorkPlace and other utilities shipped with eCS and presumably ArcaOS, but since OD can be installed in a modular fashion you can install just the utilities you need from the package and skip parts like Object Center that can clash with XWP.

Having said that, the last time I installed it I only found Keyboard Launchpad and Object Packager to be worthy of an install, all other enhancements having better more modern replacements and in reality I think I have not seen any real use even of those two in years. Object Advisor remains interesting but I never figured out a user case for it.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on May 08, 2017, 08:00:01 pm
It would seem to me that the statement "new kernel, that better supports upper shared memory, but it appears that that is still not perfect." is a real problem. This should have been the highest priority. What good is a fantastic installer when the system crashes at will. I have used OS/2 since 2.1 and have put up with that behavior for years. It was not bad until the latest crop of applications started needing high memory. Now, any extended use of those applications will cause system failure. Not a production OS for users. I have servers running with OS/2 with no problem as long as they do not push the use of high memory. That cannot continue if OS/2 wants to continue.

I'd want this too, but it can't really be done and also support existing OS/2 programs. It's also way, way, way beyond available resources. I haven't yet tried the new support, but if it solves normal usage scenarios, then I think its useful.

The new installer will be quite a bit short of fantastic, but if most people can install with it, I'm happy.

I'm thinking ArcaOS 5.1 will be the one to support OS/2 users in the long term. This release will prove that the lights are still on. Really, just having the current set of  features on one install DVD is pretty great.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on May 09, 2017, 07:51:20 am
Quote
How big can this ram drive become?

To be honest, I don't know. At the moment, it supports HPFS, FAT32, and FAT16, file systems. HPFS is  limited to 64 GB (I think), but you can have more than one RAMDISK, so I suppose that two 64 GB disks would be the limit. I can't test that however, because I don't have that much memory in my machines. In fact, RAMDISKS are not all that useful. About all that you can do with them, is put the %TEMP% stuff on them. FAT32 is not all that useful, and FAT16 is limited to 2 GB. There is a feature that will attempt to retain the contents over a warm boot, but it depends on far too many things to depend on that working every time. HPFS seems to be the best option, because it can be more than 2 GB, and is pretty high performance. It is possible to format a HPFS RAMDRIVE as JFS, but there are some 'gotchas' to look after, if you do that (Please ASK, if you want to try it, but I suggest that you stick to the supported stuff, for a while).

Quote
I am running virtual machines that are stored on ram drives,

Hmmm. I am not sure that you can do that. There is a project to update Virtual Box for OS/2, but that is outside of the ArcaOS project, at the moment. so far, that can only run operating systems that do not need the virtual machine assist support. The allocated memory still needs to be inside real (4 GB) memory. If they can get the virtual machine assist stuff working, it will be more useful. It makes more sense to use the real disk, with cache, than to use a RAMDISK anyway.

Quote
It would seem to me that the statement "new kernel, that better supports upper shared memory, but it appears that that is still not perfect." is a real problem.

Well, yes, and no. It is a problem, that I am sure will be solved, eventually, but it is much better than what eCS 2.2b2 supported. At the moment, I don't know if it is an upper shared memory kernel problem, or if it is an upper shared memory Apache OpenOffice problem. If you use the AOO Quickstart program (which keeps AOO in memory), there is no problem (at least I haven't seen a problem, yet). Loading Firefox in upper shared memory seems to work okay too (which is a huge step forward). I will note, that there is a new version of CLAMAV in the netlabs experimental repository (for RPM/YUM), which uses huge amounts of upper shared memory (if you use the CLAMD.EXE program). That also works okay, as long as you set VIRTUALADDRESSLIMIT=3072 in CONFIG.SYS. 2048 might work, but it is pretty close to not enough.

Quote
The new installer will be quite a bit short of fantastic, but if most people can install with it, I'm happy.

The new installer is going to be a bit disappointing to a lot of people (especially those at Arca Noae), but it does work okay, as long as you pay attention to what you are selecting to do. Pay particular attention to the confirmation page, and if you go back to fix something, be very sure that all of your selections stick. The installer is scheduled for a major upgrade, but, from what I understand, it isn't going to happen for the GA. At least it looks like the dangerous parts are fixed. Be sure to READ the README, and have a GOOD backup of your whole system, before you try it. I would suggest, when possible, to use a test machine, or a virtual machine, to try it, so you can see how it works, before committing to updating a real machine.

ArcaOS is definitely a step up from eCS 2.2b2, but don't expect miracles. They come later.   :D
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: ivan on May 09, 2017, 09:17:15 am
Doug, a quick question.

You mention making a good backup of an existing system, that should be standard practice, but my question is have you, or any of the testers, tried this on a brand new unused physical system and if so what are the problems?
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Mathias on May 09, 2017, 09:46:46 am
@ Doug Bissett:
Yep, HPFS would then be the FS of choice. Question is, would that missing caching be a problem on a RAM drive? RAM is quick, so why cache anything at all? (And wouldn't caching slow down the I/O on a ram drive?)

On Linux and Windows I found out, that VirtualBox is slowing down I/O for large files, but small ones are accessed, written, read extremely fast. Appears to be a VirtualBox internal problem.
I've ran benchmarks inside and outside of VBoxes in both Linux and Windows for ram drives. Outside of a VM the performance was (of course) god like, even on huge files. Inside of such a box however, I never could cross the 90 MB/s on huge files' transfer from and to the same virtual hard drive. Other story for small files. Even inside the box, these use to be uber fast, as expected of a ram drive stored virtual drive. ( : - So the benefit of running an OS on a ram drive stored VM is still great imo, compared to benchmarks when the VM is stored on a (Raptor) physical HDD.


DB> There is a feature that will attempt to retain the contents over a warm boot, but it depends on far too many things to depend on that working every time.

Cool feature!! oo* But in production use, rebooting is not an option. This thing needs to run until the next maintenance window. The stuff on the ram drive will then be moved off the drive, and back onto after maintenance.


DB> The allocated memory still needs to be inside real (4 GB) memory. If they can get the virtual machine assist stuff working, it will be more useful.

Ahh I see. 1 GB for the operating system and 2,x GB for the guests is quite small indeed. - In this case I'll be following the news about the mentioned VM assist support before taking any actions. : )

Big thanks for your explainations!!
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Kevin Nunn on May 09, 2017, 02:59:14 pm
Once I get ArcaOS5, I'll try out XWorkPlace for a bit and see if it is better than OD2, if not I can install OD2 and go with that.

I think you will find that most of the OD2 package has been made outdated by the features of XWorkPlace and other utilities shipped with eCS and presumably ArcaOS, but since OD can be installed in a modular fashion you can install just the utilities you need from the package and skip parts like Object Center that can clash with XWP.

That is true, I usually don't install everything. Mainly Control Center and Tab Launchpad. But I am looking forward to trying out XWorkPlace.

Quote
Having said that, the last time I installed it I only found Keyboard Launchpad and Object Packager to be worthy of an install, all other enhancements having better more modern replacements and in reality I think I have not seen any real use even of those two in years. Object Advisor remains interesting but I never figured out a user case for it.

I think I mainly still use it for nostalgia purposes. That is what I used when I was running my BBS back in the 90s and when I set it all back up, I was going for that retro feel. But, if there is something better, I would love to check it out.

Just patiently waiting for ArcaOS5 to be released :)
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on May 09, 2017, 11:50:49 pm
Quote
have you, or any of the testers, tried this on a brand new unused physical system and if so what are the problems?

I haven't actually done it with a "new" system. I did put a spare 500 GB disk into both my Lenovo ThinkPads (T510, and L530), and restored them to "factory" status. Then, I installed ArcaOS. The main "problem" is to get the partition sizes reduced to make room for ArcaOS, AND, to make LVM happy. Shrinking the main windows C: is easy enough, but the recovery partitions (may) extend past the last full cylinder, so you also need to shrink the recovery partition. The tool that is supplied needs a button, to shrink it by the smallest possible amount, but all it has is a large slider, and it is difficult to do a small amount (which you cannot expand again, if you take too much). I recommend that you use the tool, booted from the ArcaOS installation DVD, so that there is no chance that it will use the wrong partitioning scheme. I used a 500 GB disk, so there was no problem with the geometry. Larger disks may need to be wiped clean, partitioned by the ArcaOS tools, then restore whatever was there before. You MUST use a proper backup program. If it simply restores the whole partition image, it will likely end up exactly the way that it started. The ONLY windows program, that I know of, that will do it properly, is Acronis. That includes the reduced function Acronis, known as Seagate Disk Wizard, but you need a Seagate, Maxtor, or Samsung, disk to be able to use it (the disk can be in an external USB enclosure).

Quote
Yep, HPFS would then be the FS of choice. Question is, would that missing caching be a problem on a RAM drive? RAM is quick, so why cache anything at all? (And wouldn't caching slow down the I/O on a ram drive?)

Actually, the cache is a bit of a problem, because it is not missing. The cache is extra overhead, and slows the disk down. HPFS cache cannot be reduced to less than 64 MB. If you use the file system with real disks, you need to use a larger cache for them, or lose performance, but it is still used with the RAMDISK, because there is no way to isolate them from the rest. JFS has the same problem. I have been using HPFS for the RAMDISK, and JFS for the rest. All I have tried, so far, is reducing the HPFS cache to 64 MB. Some other settings may also reduce the cache usage. In fact, the fastest is FAT16, but that is limited to 2 GB. FAT32 is slow, like all other implementations of FAT32. HPFS works pretty well, and it is much faster than any real disk (a fast SSD may keep up). Of course, there are a lot of things that can affect the speed.

Quote
On Linux and Windows I found out, that VirtualBox is slowing down I/O for large files, but small ones are accessed, written, read extremely fast. Appears to be a VirtualBox internal problem.
I've ran benchmarks inside and outside of VBoxes in both Linux and Windows for ram drives. Outside of a VM the performance was (of course) god like, even on huge files. Inside of such a box however, I never could cross the 90 MB/s on huge files' transfer from and to the same virtual hard drive. Other story for small files. Even inside the box, these use to be uber fast, as expected of a ram drive stored virtual drive. ( : - So the benefit of running an OS on a ram drive stored VM is still great imo, compared to benchmarks when the VM is stored on a (Raptor) physical HDD.

In VBOX, under windows, you have the option to use the host system disk cache, and you can mark the guest drives as being SSD. You can also use AHCI, which speeds it up. Some, or all of that makes a lot of difference to virtual disk performance.  I would guess that VBOX under any version of OS/2, will never perform well enough to be using it that way, but I don't know a lot about that project. What would be really good, would be if they could use the memory above what OS/2 can normally use. The RAMDISK memory support actually opens that window, but a lot of work is required to flesh it out so it can be used.

Quote
Ahh I see. 1 GB for the operating system and 2,x GB for the guests is quite small indeed

It depends on the guest OS. If it will run with a small memory, you can use more guests. Fine tuning that stuff is probably more of an art, than a science, and what works with VBOX under windows, may not work under *NIX. AFAIK VBOX under OS/2 is currently limited to one guest (but that is supposed to be fixed).

Currently, I would suggest that OS/2 works much better as a guest, than as a host, for virtual machines.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Kohl on May 10, 2017, 02:55:02 pm
Actually, the cache is a bit of a problem, because it is not missing. The cache is extra overhead, and slows the disk down. HPFS cache cannot be reduced to less than 64 MB.
It sounds unbelievable. With parameter /C: the amount can be 2048 kB at the utmost. It has more effect to adjust the cache record length (/CRECL) to fit better with the used HBA. Additionally it's possible to enable or disable the lazy write and read ahead features with the OS/2 command CACHE which also handles MAXAGE, BUFFERIDLE and DISKIDLE time.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Eric Erickson on May 10, 2017, 06:21:58 pm
A little off-topic, but I was looking at the Arca Noae Website and the last post about release said it was delayed until April 15, well its almost May 15th with no further updates that I can find. Anyone have any info on the potential release date?
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on May 10, 2017, 08:28:26 pm
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Anyone have any info on the potential release date?

Nothing official, and I don't speak for Arca Noae, but they are having a terrible time trying to get the installer working properly. It seems that every time they fix something, two other things break. Once they get past that, it should be ready to go.

I suspect that they have been looking at it for long enough, that they couldn't see a problem if it jumped out and grabbed them by the throat.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Doug Bissett on May 10, 2017, 08:31:28 pm
Quote
the amount can be 2048 kB at the utmost.

Sorry, I meant 64 KB.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Eric Erickson on May 10, 2017, 09:25:17 pm
Quote
Anyone have any info on the potential release date?

Nothing official, and I don't speak for Arca Noae, but they are having a terrible time trying to get the installer working properly. It seems that every time they fix something, two other things break. Once they get past that, it should be ready to go.

I suspect that they have been looking at it for long enough, that they couldn't see a problem if it jumped out and grabbed them by the throat.

Thanks. I would expect that they would have put out some kind of news. Even if its a release date is now TBD.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andreas Schnellbacher on May 10, 2017, 10:13:04 pm
Note that Doug said his comments are not official.

Doug's texts contain much too many guesswork for being usable at all. It may point into the correct direction or it may not.

Unfortunately all the past announcements from Lewis about the release date were not correct. That's currently the main problem, that misinformed customers get no info at all. But it's surely not time to spread rumors.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Greg Pringle on May 10, 2017, 10:54:49 pm
Rumor has it that something will released at some time.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Eugene Tucker on May 11, 2017, 12:11:10 am
I honestly feel that letting them bet to work in peace may be the best solution I work in IT at a large company and thet seems to be the best solution. Yeah I know we can be disappointed but it is better to let them get it right the first time.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on May 11, 2017, 06:20:15 am
I have to agree with Doug. I believe we both get the same information and neither of us are privy to what goes on the ArcaOS developers mailing list, which I presume to exist.
The operating system is basically done, the installer is being very difficult to get working satisfactory. From comments from Lewis, he really wanted to get ArcaOS out before the end of April, but he also wants a decent product.
As an example, just getting the installer to look good and be readable at various screen resolutions is not as easy as you'd think. Then there is a huge variety of hardware and users who use that hardware in different ways.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on May 11, 2017, 08:57:47 am
Quote
Anyone have any info on the potential release date?
..... but they are having a terrible time trying to get the installer working properly. It seems that every time they fix something, two other things break. Once they get past that, it should be ready to go.

When I got my first "own" Computer it was preinstalled with Warp 3 (happend by accident!) - January the 13th, 1995. It was the time when VOBIS replaced Windows with OS/2 as the preinstalled System. Later on VOBIS have been forced by the pressure of Microsoft to Switch back to Windows - and the "Force" was as easy as this: "Otherwise you won't get Windows 95".

That time I was almost alone with this System, no one aorund me used it. I had no idea about Operating Systems but I liked it very much from the beginning. Strange that some things Keep that present in ones mind, i.e. the Computer was not equipped with a Sound Card, so I bought one (with ESS688 chip), as well as a CD Drive (a Double Speed Drive ! gosh - the Price at that time  :) ) . As there was even no VOBIS seller familiar with the System OS/2 I decided to start on my own. It was a Kind of thriumpf for me to install both on my own, opening that "Secret" 486/DX2-80 VLB PC, and in the end it worked. The first Sound that came out of my System was - the Warp 3 start Sound.....  :)

And that is - I guess - the main reason why I still try to get it to run and Keep it as some Kind of "Remaining Fellow" through the "Digital Decades, Revolutions..."  8)

Next at that time in 1995 I started to read the OS/2 articles in Computer magazines that have been around (c't, PC Welt, PC Magazin...) and there was a real OS/2 Magazine as well "OS/2 Inside". While I did not understand even a word in the firt issues I became more and more familiar with the articles and I collected them as well.

So - what I was able to understand from the beginning: The main Problem - and that was the barrier each user had to take first - has allways been identified as "The Installer". And that was not only the thruth regarding Drivers (I remember the Problems with the NE2000 Network Card) but also
- the disk layout
- the RAM
- the Qualtity of the Hardware
If I remember correctly there was some Kind of: OS/2 - Only on selected Hardware! So you had to take care what to take, and i.e. RAM is not allways RAM - choose qualtitiy!
While Windows 95 installed on almost every System that time (and still) it after the Installation often suprised you with the BOSD - the Blue Screen of Death - OS/2 on the other Hand refused to install on the same Hardware right from the beginning. But once yout got it installed it was pretty solid!

-> The installer was allways the Problem, never fitted every System! And this Kind of installer will never do. (I do not want to harm the people writing that installer, they did a great work, the Problem is the System of the installer itself, regardless what it Looks like!)

-> So I would like to repeat my Point of view for years now: switch to a totally different installer:
-> choose a bootable DFSEE USB STICK or DFSEE DVD
-> include at least two different Clones of preinstalled Systems (Legacy/ACPI)
-> go for it....

And I am still of this opinion: a rumour is even better than NO Information at all. If there is no Information at all one do not have to wonder if the Attention shrinks to Zero. And in the end: Giving NO Information is the reason why rumours are around at all.....

Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on May 11, 2017, 04:33:30 pm
And I am still of this opinion: a rumour is even better than NO Information at all. If there is no Information at all one do not have to wonder if the Attention shrinks to Zero. And in the end: Giving NO Information is the reason why rumours are around at all.....

Hi Sigurd, I agree. I even started considering flame as feedback, since it was hard to get the words out of people :)

About ArcaOS delays, if we waited so long for eCS 2.2, I guess we can wait a little bit more. Just let's not hold our breath about it, let's keep posting things, porting software, documenting the EDM/2 wiki, etc, etc.

Regards
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on May 11, 2017, 05:08:47 pm
@Sigurd, while your idea for just having some disk images would work for many systems, what about systems that don't have good USB support or DVD support?
Or for one example, serial support. Load pscom.sys on a system without a serial port and the driver will complain and halt the boot. Don't load it and people like me won't have internet access.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: André Heldoorn on May 11, 2017, 05:52:22 pm
So - what I was able to understand from the beginning: The main Problem - and that was the barrier each user had to take first - has allways been identified as "The Installer".

Erm... You did mention VOBIS. Their main problem with their pre-installed OS obviously wasn't the installer, but 4 MiB of RAM. So their new "seamless multi-tasking" OS/2 computer was extremely slow, and "no hourglass anymore" turned out to be a clock. The installer was a PITA for fewer non-VOBIS customers, so that didn't help, but the average user of OS/2 will have bought a RAM upgrade and Windows 95 at the same this. So Windows 95 won both the battle and the war, despite of VOBIS selling many OS/2 installs to average customers. Swapping played a far more important role than the installer, if we don't look at niche markets with unsupported hardware. With VOBIS we've almost won the war, but 4 MiB of RAM of cheap computers turned out to be a fatal mistake for the market share of OS/2. Unfortunately it doesn't really matter anymore that Microsoft still likes to torture harddisks, but that's "updating" instead of "swapping".
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on May 11, 2017, 06:03:39 pm
@Sigurd, while your idea for just having some disk images would work for many systems, what about systems that don't have good USB support or DVD support?
Or for one example, serial support. Load pscom.sys on a system without a serial port and the driver will complain and halt the boot. Don't load it and people like me won't have internet access.

That would be my answer once I would be the Seller/Distributor of the System:

(I do not want to become a Seller/Distributor, this is just the answer "If I were...." )

That would be the moment for a "tailored clone". As the Provider of this OS you could ask me what you want to have or must have in your clone:

i.e.: Serial Port Support.

I would then send you the tailored clone within one day.

In fact I would set up a form/Survey/questionary on my Homepage where you as a customer could check and fill wich Kind of Hardware you have and wich Kind of Drivers and Basic Applications you would Need/like to have.

Next I would build your tailored clone from one of the "Masterclones" and send it to you.

If you have a System with no USB/DVD/CD Support, than we will run into Problems for sure. The one "Must" for Hardware in this case is that it should be able to start DFSEE in some way. External (USB,DVD,CD) or may be internal with an alongside installed Linux i.e.

If there is no way to boot DFSEE than I would offer my last possibility: send me your SSD/HDD and I will install the Basic clone there for you. You will get a rescue USB Stick with the clone on it as backup as well, even if you would not be able to use it with this particular Hardware.

Yes, it sounds like some Kind of fairytale, but this way (cloning and restoring) it works for me for years now. This way I am able to use OS/2 WSeB 4.52 (ACP2, latest Drivers) on my Lenovo T450s, where other ways to install failed.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on May 11, 2017, 06:19:06 pm
Erm... You did mention VOBIS. Their main problem with their pre-installed OS obviously wasn't the installer, but 4 MiB of RAM. So their new "seamless multi-tasking" OS/2 computer was extremely slow, and "no hourglass anymore" turned out to be a clock. The installer was a PITA for fewer non-VOBIS customers, ....

Well, you should Keep in mind that These preinstalled VOBIS PCs have been "tailored" Systems for OS/2, therefore the Installation wasn't that hard on this PCs (Funny enough: in my case I got a OS/2 Warp 3 CD the time I bought the comupter, that itself did not have a CD Drive  ;D....but in the end I was happy not to Play the "Diskjokey" each time I Need to reinstall the System). You are right: the clock/swapping was really annoying - but I upgraded to 8 MB of RAM pretty soon. The advertisment "4 MB of RAM are enough" did not really match the reality, it was advertisment.....

But for almost everyone else, with the "average" PC the Installer was the Killerapp of OS/2.

With VOBIS we've almost won the war,.....

This is a fairytale  ;) in deed, I remember there have been some others like ESCOM with preinstalled OS/2 PCs, but the real big Players, i.e. DELL, GATEWAY2000 (does anyone remember?  :) ) never supported OS/2. (if I remember correctly...  ;))
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Richard Crowley on May 11, 2017, 10:13:14 pm

 if we waited so long for eCS 2.2, I guess we can wait a little bit more.

For my own purposes, I'm very glad that we do have eCS and the AN drivers. For me, it is working fine and I can totally understand how an installer can be finicky. Best of luck to them. Learning to program and port stuff will keep me busy for quite a while. ;)
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Mathias on May 12, 2017, 12:05:24 am
Teheee : )) - Same here. My first PC also was a VOBIS Sky Tower (the one with the moving front lid to hide the drives).

This thing came with a 486 DX-2/66 - bundled with DOS 6.x when remembering correctly and OS/2 Warp 3 (the CD edition without a network stack). - Both in a dual boot environment.
It's been bundled with a 3,5" floppy drive, a 512 MB IDE disk (Quantum Fireball which still works today!!! :3), and this machine already had PCI (no Vesa Local Bus anymore), and had 8 MB of RAM.. and therefore was said to be future proof.
Though it came without a CD drive. Some time later I got myself a 2x speed CD-ROM drive which was around ~250 DM back then, a Soundblaster AWE32 and was able to explore the bundled CDs, including the Warp 3 Bonus Pack (Yeah still loving the parrots! :3)

Over the years the PC got updated, mainboard swapped, etc.. but I always kept my first hardware stuff, never sold anything or thrown anything of it away.
However, three years ago I found this case with some mainboard in it, which I couldn't remember... popped it out, built in the old 486er mainboard again, together with the original CPU, RAM, etc.. and tried to turn it on... but nothing happened. :o

Luckily I already knew some really kind Amiga community, which restores mainboards, PSUs, etcetc, so I gave my 486er package to them to restore all the elkos and replace the fixed-onboard-battery, but keep everything as original as possible. - Know what? - ALL the original pieces were still available to buy, so ... in the end... here it is.. xD - It's like new! *___* - Well the plastic parts of the Sky Tower became "a bit" more yellow than they used to be hehe.. but even that can be cured, they told me. (kept that up for some later time)

I am happy with Warp 3 and this 486er as it is. Such a great experience.. back then and today. - And for me.. Warp 3 belongs to the experience from back then. Don't want to miss OS/2 Warp 3 anymore. I like the look & feel.. somehow as part of my past.

The first time I was completely overwhelmed with Warp 3, as I had some "programming" experience with QuickBasic and Batch on my dad's 486er SX-25 on DOS 5.0... so I of course went with the stuff I knew..
But of course when a young guy get's a PC, he's not only (but a lot xD) interested in programming, but also games! : )) ... which of course led to sheer endless memmaker sessions in order to make the games run on DOS somehow.. but either they had mouse or sound or access to the cd drive.. it was quite hard and hopeless sometimes. :O

..... until I found out, by playing around with the levers on Warp 3, that you could actually emulate RAM for DOS sessions simply by flipping a lever alllll to the right.. EVERY DOS game ran marvellously, since it had sound, cd-drive, mouse, all the necessary irqs mapped, etcetc.. and aalways enough conventional RAM left to ALSO run the games!! *__* - WHAT A GREAT OS, I thought.. and from that moment on, I more and more booted Warp 3 and left DOS 6 where it was.. just in case.. ; ) - But DOS set dust over time, while Warp 3 more and more became the OS for everything, also constantly trying out features, reading the extraordinary help documents etcetc.. seeing so many well thought-through details in applications, which were missing in Microsoft OSes and applications (atleast in that detail)!

Has been a cewl time! But now it's time to move on with ArcaOS, that WILL BE released when ArcaNoae is happy with it. : )
I'll give the new OS a try on more modern machines, while the 486er (and some VirtualBoxes) always will remain a nice window to the past! *__*
Maybe next year I'll bring it along to Leipzig (DE) as part of the Retro gaming night in April.. for anybody who's close by.. you're welcome to visit hehe! : ))
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Sigurd Fastenrath on May 12, 2017, 07:30:40 am
Teheee : )) - Same here. My first PC also was a VOBIS Sky Tower (the one with the moving front lid to hide the drives).

This thing came with a 486 DX-2/66 - bundled with DOS 6.x when remembering correctly and OS/2 Warp 3 (the CD edition without a network stack). - Both in a dual boot environment....
..... until I found out, by playing around with the levers on Warp 3, that you could actually emulate RAM for DOS sessions simply by flipping a lever alllll to the right.. EVERY DOS game ran marvellously, since it had sound, cd-drive, mouse, all the necessary irqs mapped, etcetc.. and aalways enough conventional RAM left to ALSO run the games!! *__* - WHAT A GREAT OS,

 :D

That makes me thinking about rebuilding mine as well.  I kept the Highscreen Mini Tower but upgraded it like you almaost every year.
AMD 486/DX2-80  ->  NexgenNX90  ->  Pentium 100  ->  Pentium 166 MMX  ->  Pentium 233MMX  ->  Pentium II 266  ->
finally to the Intel Penitum III 600 with 512 MB RAM. This is still there and working.  ;D With this I can make a "Clean install" of each and any OS/2 Version up from 2.1.

But I will try to get a 486 Mainboard if I can find one and have a look.... To Play some good old DOS Games again (that are runnin gin ScummVM or DOSBOX already, but just for the Feeling....

I will have a look if I can find the original VOBIS Prospekt form that time that is somewhere around here...

Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Mathias on May 12, 2017, 10:19:05 am
@ Sigurd Fastenrath:

That's a really nice idea!! Imagine.. playing Commander Keen again for instance.. *___* - on original hardware from back then.. same keyboard as back then, connecting your old joystick/gamepad.. and instantly feel young again! xD

Hmm.. havn't found much about the Sky Tower, but the [VOBIS advertise (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfEdfP0SEfc)] is on Youtube.. *grinning*
Luckily this pink slide lid handle, as seen in the advertiser, could be swapped, depending on your mood.. ; ) - The case came bundled with the choice out of three: pink, blue (default) and black.
I remember after the 486er, I upgraded the case to a Pentium (2?) with 120 MHz and later on a 233 MMX, and after this.. I had a slot CPU (soooo lovely xDD) with 800 MHz and later on (after some while) a noname notebook with whopping 1,1 GHz o__o, 256 MB RAM, a 3,5" floppy drive, DVD-ROM, PS/2 connector and USB 1.1!! - This one was unable to run OS/2 Warp 3 back then for some reason.. so I sticked to Win98 SE.

Last year, I found the notebook again, and wanted to give it another try with Warp 3, then 4.. but it didn't turn on .. so I gave it to the same guys, who had already restored my 486er.. and after an exchange of aaalll the elkos and battery, it finally worked again! *__*
The guy who had repaired that thing said he was swearing all the time about how cheap this notebook was built.. and how complicated it is designed.. ehem... :>

After I got it back, first thing I tried was installing Warp 3, then tried Warp 4... but both installers failed at the same spot: After floppy 2 it always gave a REALLY loud beeeeep, saying "cannot access your hard drive or cd-rom" - Okay.. so I went on the chipset manufacturer website (SIS) and found the IDE driver for OS/2 .. LUCKY!! xD -> manipulated the 1st and 2nd install disk (warp 3 and 4) to include the driver.. and booted! - SAME story again, just it had successfully loaded the driver.. but STILL... "cannot access your hdd or cd-drive" grml..

Then I remembered, a friend of mine had found an OS/2 2.0 package (untouched and under a lot of dust) in his company and this was about to be thrown away at cleaning up... so I was the lucky man to keep it from then on. - 18 or so floppies, all handbooks.. everything in mint shape!! *__* - What a find!!
So.. I thought why not give OS/2 2.0 a try on the notebook.. and theeere it went! - Long story short: It worked!! No IDE/hard drive anything message.. just went through nicely!! - W00t!! - So in the end, I might be lacking an OS/2 driver for the CD-ROM drive indeed in order install Warp 3 and 4 from CD..

That's the current status.. I might need to create floppies (Yep, they are included on the CDs), just lacking the time a bit until nowdays..
But as machines with a floppy drive getting more and more rare these days, I felt I need to speed up things a little, and started creating the first few disks from the images yesterday.. some more to come over the upcoming weekend.. *__*

And yes.. another machine is already waiting for the upcoming ArcaOS.. cleaned and ready to run :3
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Richard Crowley on May 12, 2017, 05:33:03 pm
@ Sigurd Fastenrath:
And yes.. another machine is already waiting for the upcoming ArcaOS.. cleaned and ready to run :3

Amazing how that older hardware seems to last for decades! 
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Eric Erickson on May 14, 2017, 06:05:03 pm
I honestly feel that letting them bet to work in peace may be the best solution I work in IT at a large company and thet seems to be the best solution. Yeah I know we can be disappointed but it is better to let them get it right the first time.

I basically agree with comment.

My only caveat is that when you publish a release date, update it and then miss it, you should say something, even if all you can say is that we can not publish a new release date at this time. No news just leads to endless speculation and questions in the minds of your customers about what is going on in your organization. I think is especially true as most, if not all of the interested parties, have memories of waiting years for the non-release of eCS 2.2.

Cheers
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Jean-Yves on May 16, 2017, 10:20:44 am
I see that ArcaOS is now available. However, when I go to buy the personal edition, it's marked as out of stock? Do AN have a limited number of licenses from IBM that they can sell ?
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Andi B. on May 16, 2017, 11:24:55 am
Don't think so. Guess they are currently setting up the backend which will process the thousands and millions of orders ;-)

Btw. the connection to them seems to be quite busy :-)
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Jean-Yves on May 16, 2017, 12:36:21 pm
I thought that too, but I assumed that the backend would be in place before the OS was made available... Strange, but hopefully just a small glitch.

Almost ArcaOS time....     :)
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: André Heldoorn on May 16, 2017, 02:04:58 pm
Amazing how that older hardware seems to last for decades!

Seems is the key word. On average my (eCS 1.x) hardware is well over 10 years old, but I tend to not write about broken monitors or fully broken computers. All of my older hardware seems to last for at least one decade, but my garbage didn't. It does help that OS/2 doesn't require newer hardware, while it's a risk that ArcaOS will still be a "no go" because English is the only "available" ArcaOS language.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: André Heldoorn on May 16, 2017, 02:16:39 pm
In fact, RAMDISKS are not all that useful. About all that you can do with them, is put the %TEMP% stuff on them.

If the same file will be accessed frequently, for example by a password guesser or by some unoptimized Rexx prototype app with loops, then a RAM disk is a way to avoid torturing the physical harddisk...
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on May 16, 2017, 04:26:01 pm
Hi.

Since ArcaOS was released (https://www.arcanoae.com/arcaos-5-0-now-available/), I think it will be great if we can open some different threads to talk about any specific of it.

I'm trying to find more material for the OS2World Wiki. I will appreciate if someone can help me with some of the following:
1) Screenshots of the installation procedure (to be include on the wiki)
2) Screenshots of the desktop (to be include on the wiki)
3) Information of what software is include on ArcaOS GA.

Remember that the OS2World wiki uses the same userid and password of this forum, so if you like to create your own wiki page you can do it, or you just can send me the stuff to me to include it on the wiki.

ArcaOS's videos on YouTube, blogs posts, etc is also welcome, just remember to share your links !

Regards
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Eric Erickson on May 16, 2017, 06:36:20 pm
Don't think so. Guess they are currently setting up the backend which will process the thousands and millions of orders ;-)

Btw. the connection to them seems to be quite busy :-)

It must be the flood of orders. As the www.arcanoae.com appears to be down right now. I keep getting a timeout response.  :o
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Kevin Nunn on May 16, 2017, 06:43:11 pm
Don't think so. Guess they are currently setting up the backend which will process the thousands and millions of orders ;-)

Btw. the connection to them seems to be quite busy :-)

It must be the flood of orders. As the www.arcanoae.com appears to be down right now. I keep getting a timeout response.  :o

I saw the announcement early this morning and was able to get in and get it ordered (and downloaded), but the server(s) were already getting hit hard and it was a very slow processes. That was 6am CST.

Already have it installed on a laptop and playing around with it (while I am working of course).

Kev
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Eric Erickson on May 16, 2017, 09:00:47 pm
I was looking over the announcement and was trying to compare/contrast the Personal vs Commercial versions. From what I can see the only difference between the 2 is.

Longer Updates Subscription/Support (1 Year vs 6 months)
Prioritized Support

Is there anything else? Any feature differences? Did I miss something?

Thanks
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on May 16, 2017, 10:12:49 pm
Hi Eric

I guess that from a binary point of view Personal and Commercial version are the same. It guess it only chance the license of use (the text that tells you that you can use it for commercial or personal use), the subscription period, the price and maybe what you called "Prioritized Support " but I can not confirm that. I don't know if someone else with more knowledge of it can talk about it.

Regards
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: guzzi on May 17, 2017, 01:57:15 am
If i remember correctly Lewis Rosenthal in his presentation at Warpstock Europe last year mentioned this. I think it is as Eric Ericslon says. Makes sense too. Prioritised support is what commercial users need.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: André Heldoorn on May 17, 2017, 02:17:25 am
I was looking over the announcement and was trying to compare/contrast the Personal vs Commercial versions. From what I can see the only difference between the 2 is.

If they have copied eCS 2.x licenses, then you need a "Commercial" version when the number of installs of one user exceeds a limit.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Dave Yeo on May 17, 2017, 04:41:00 am
Lewis posted on the testers list that they're having server problems, not caused by making the GA available.
Hopefully they clear it up by tomorrow.
And yes, the commercial version is the same besides the subscription and prioritized support, probably number of licenses as well. Sounds like the licensing is pretty restricted due to IBM rather then a decision by Arca Noae, at least that is my understanding.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Greggory Shaw on May 17, 2017, 06:58:08 am
Screenshots !
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: nyao on May 17, 2017, 09:36:44 am
>Screenshots !

ArcaOS5 on VirtualBOX.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Jean-Yves on May 17, 2017, 12:16:11 pm
How long does it take for the email to come through with the link to the personalised ISO download?  I've just ordered (tried and failed so many times yesterday), so was just wondering.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Moritz on May 17, 2017, 01:55:03 pm
How long does it take for the email to come through with the link to the personalised ISO download?  I've just ordered (tried and failed so many times yesterday), so was just wondering.

I am not sure if you get a mail with DL link. I didn't get one but when you log into the ArcaNoae page and go to the details of your order you have a download button there.

Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Jean-Yves on May 17, 2017, 02:19:17 pm
Hi Moritz,

Thank you for your reply. I had already looked there and in the Orders & Subscriptions section I can see my order. However, there is no Download button, just a View button. This just shows me my invoice.

When I look at the invoice, there is no download link within it.  The order is marked as Completed.

Is there somewhere else I should look?  I am probably being extremely stupid here apologies if so!
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Jean-Yves on May 17, 2017, 02:22:51 pm
Actually, I just re-checked and there is a link there. I could have sworn there was not. So yes, it was me being Mr Stupid.   :)

Downloading!
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Greg Pringle on May 17, 2017, 02:24:36 pm
After 10 to 15 minutes the View of the Order should have a download link below the name of the product. That part of the page will display other information before the ISO is ready.
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Martin Iturbide on May 17, 2017, 03:50:24 pm
Thanks for the screenshot. Please keep sharing, I will put those on a wiki page. I created a different thread for the screenshots (http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,1365.0.html).
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Paul Smedley on May 18, 2017, 10:32:09 am
Installed fine here on a Thinkpad T60, will upgrade my development VM hopefully tomorrow as I have a day off :)
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Karen Roberts on June 01, 2017, 08:49:26 pm
After some difficulties getting the partitions recognized (used DFSee finally - that, combined with the Arcaos volume manager, did the trick), it installed OK on my T410 laptop. Sound works (tested using youtube). Now if we could just get a modern browser, I could use this as my main system again. Firefox 38 doesn't work with some of my basic web sites ( meriwest.com, for one, you can try it by just putting in any 6 digit # in the "Member Id" field, it comes back with a pop-up that says "You have chosen to open: Password.aspx ..." and I can't get past that.)

Wireless would also be helpful :-)

Karen
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Karen Roberts on June 01, 2017, 11:24:24 pm
Just saw info for the FF Beta of v45, will give that a try!
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: Karen Roberts on June 02, 2017, 08:00:16 pm
Well, finally got FF45 to come up, but I still get the same problem trying to log into meriwest.com.

:-(
Title: Re: Are you getting ready for ArcaOS?
Post by: guzzi on June 04, 2017, 02:06:21 am
Just tried with FF38.8. filled in 123456 and page changes  to one that asks for a password...