Author Topic: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....  (Read 1717 times)

Sigurd Fastenrath

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 13
  • -Receive: 30
  • Posts: 325
    • View Profile
Well, there are These new files available:

- AHCI 2.03
- ACPI 3.23.06
- Kernel 14201

Sadly in the Readme it is stated, that OS/2 and eCS are no more supported with this versions. >:(

While I am really very (!) satisfied with the development, Quality and Results from ArcaNoae I am really dissapointed by this.

This will lead to a monolitic OS/2 Scene when it Comes to more recent Hardware.

Excluding OS/2 and eCS Users from this Support is something I can not really understand.

While it makes no difference for users of Virtual OS/2-eCS installations by now, it can be one in the future once some new Firefox, Samba or whatever programs require recent ArcaOS files.

On my customized OS/2 ACP2 based installations ACPI 3.23.06 installed after displaying a warning message and Shows it at each boot. In Addition it Supports only one Kernel.
AHCI refuses to install unless ACPI 3.23.06 is installed. I did not try to install Kernel 14.201 so far.

I really do not see any technical reason why this way to go on is a MUST.

And: I bought the Software subscription the end of last year for one year in Addition. But These updated files can NOT be downloaded from the Sotware Subscriptions but only from the ArcaOS subject.... >:(

Did I miss or missunderstand something (maybe due to my motherlanguage German)?
 



Dave Yeo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 8
  • -Receive: 98
  • Posts: 1168
    • View Profile
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2017, 08:20:03 pm »
Perhaps it is a licensing issue with the kernel? I note that all recent kernel releases since 106 with eCS 2.2b have not been generally available.
Note that these 3 files (and the multimac ones that I have) are tied together so you really shouldn't do what you did, namely install ACPI without installing the kernel. Luckily I doubt IBM will come after you for using the kernel.

Ian Manners

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 30
  • -Receive: 16
  • Posts: 246
  • I am the computer, it is me.
    • View Profile
    • OS/2 Site
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2017, 08:32:22 pm »
Quote
Well, there are These new files available:
- AHCI 2.03
- ACPI 3.23.06
- Kernel 14201

Are these files only available if you have ArcaOS ?
I no longer have access to the driver's on ArcaNoae's website so this is general interest.
Cheers
Ian B Manners

Dariusz Piatkowski

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 9
  • -Receive: 9
  • Posts: 255
    • View Profile
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2017, 09:28:37 pm »
Quote
Well, there are These new files available:
- AHCI 2.03
- ACPI 3.23.06
- Kernel 14201

Are these files only available if you have ArcaOS ?...

The first two are available as part of the older (and maybe about to be discontinued - which is why I share Sigurd's frustration) Drivers Subscription. The third one - kernel - appears to be only available to the AOS licensees.

Hmm...

So given our "giant" installed-base of umm...maybe a couple of hundred of users...we seem to be actually about to split into the AOS or "bust" crowd???  >:(  Who the heck came up with that idea???

Here are my thoughts (and I've said this several times before being quite up-front with my thinking on this topic): having been a paid subscriber of the Drivers Subscription for some 3 yrs now (since that program become available I believe) this seems like a "who cares about you" type of a statement by AN to the customers that supported them early on and got on the wagon very early on to fund what appeared to be the only drive for unifying OS/2 improvements. You know what I'm saying?

Just seems like a pretty nasty way to say "Thank You to our supporters"!!! I do not like it, I think it stinks. Unless someone can actually say there is a licensing issue here (ie. you have to purchase AOS to be able to install the newer kernels) it simply reeks of a forced money grab, albeit, probably for a very good reason, which is funding of the additional improvements.

Anyways, I mentioned this in the SNAP driver thread: I am much happier maintaining my years old OS/2 install than having to re-install AOS...so why do I need to be forced into purchasing the AOS license in the first place? Heck, I thought my Drivers Subscription was all about allowing me to keep my OS/2 machine updated...

Oh, btw, the following is also clearly stated in the ACPI readme:

=== START ===
This software will run with full functionality on the following kernels:
  Arca Noae 14.201 SMP Retail
  Arca Noae 14.104b SMP Debug

This software will run with limited functionality on the following kernels:
  Arca Noae 14.200 SMP Retail
  Arca Noae 14.104a SMP Debug
  Arca Noae 14.200 W4 Retail
  IBM 14.104a SMP Retail
  IBM 14.105 SMP Retail
  IBM 14.106 SMP Retail
  IBM 14.104a W4 Retail
  IBM 14.105 W4 Retail
  IBM 14.106 W4 Retail
=== STOP ===

...yet there is no mention what so ever of what exactly makes for "limitted functionality" in the other kernels...and yet here I was naively (apparently) thinking that having purchased my Drivers Subscription I would continue to receive WORKING software....clearly the above states this is NO LONGER the case!

Tom

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 2
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2017, 09:29:45 pm »
Sigurd,

On the Arca Noae website and in the readmes for these packages is mentioned:
  • available for those with an Arca Noae OS/2 & eCS Drivers and Software Subscription (ACPI 3.23.06 and AHCI 2.03)
  • available for those with an ArcaOS Support & Maintenance Sunscription (kernel 14.201)

So the new ACPI and AHCI should also work on an OS/2 system or on an eCS system, but for the new kernel that is not the case (at least: you are not allowed to install that new kernel on such systems).

However: the new ACPI will have a somewhat limited functionality on OS/2 and eCS systems, because of the older kernel versions that are installed on such systems. This is because of a bug in these kernels, that has been fixed in kernel 14.201 (has to do with interrupts, and can be read in more detail on the ACPI wiki at the AN website).
I guess that is what the warning during booting is trying to tell you. (I am curious: wat is the exact text of that warning message?).

Note that I have no affiliation with Arca Noae, other than being a satisfied customer. So it seems advisable to contact them (for example Lewis Rosenthal) for an official clarification.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 09:33:54 pm by Tom »

Tom

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 2
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2017, 09:44:48 pm »
Dariusz,

As far as I can tell from the information on the AN website, the limited functionality of the new ACPI on kernels prior to 14.201 is simply that the fixed bug regarding interrupts will still be present on systems with older kernels. Because in order to fix that bug requires both ACPI >= 3.23.06 AND kernel >= 14.201 .


Pete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 27
  • Posts: 569
    • View Profile
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2017, 10:03:26 pm »
Hi All

It does not seem right for AN to make the acpi 3.23.06 package generally available but limit availability of the 14.201 kernel package to ArcaOS. Reason:  the 14.201 kernel fixes high IRQ problems with acpi 2.23.06

The release post states:-

This release contains the following changes: Fixed a problem handling interrupts greater than 31. This release is an update for ArcaOS users only. Warning: Do not install this kernel if you are using ACPI.PSD version 3.23.05 or lower. 

While it does not state that a high IRQ problem is a result of installing acpi 3.23.06 that is my experience. So kernel 14.201 is needed to be able to handle IRQs >31.

Is it a "marketing ploy" do we think? A further snip from the release post:-

If you are still running OS/2 and/or eComStation systems and haven’t yet moved up to ArcaOS, this might be a great reason to do so now. This update is not available for nor licensed for use with OS/2 or eComStation.


I guess the answer is Yes.

Regards

Pete

Sigurd Fastenrath

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 13
  • -Receive: 30
  • Posts: 325
    • View Profile
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 08:13:12 am »
I attached two Pictures,

- ArcaOS -> showing my ArcaOS Downloads with the ArcaOS order
- ARcaOSSS -> showing my Software Subscription Downloads from that order

The only "visible" difference is the missing of the kernel (as other stated before).

But: ACPI 3.23.06 is more or less uselless without Kernelupdate, and AHCI is not possible/useless without ACPI....


I am wondering:

Years ago with the IBM Software Subscription there has been allways Access to the Kernel updates.


What makes me really wondering:

Once ArcaNOae startet three years ago someone told me exactly that this will happen - more or less Opensource Software (Yes, the kernel was never Open Source, nor ACPI, but if you look at AHCI - it was not as well - but before was DANIS ....)  will be turned into closed Software and the choice for OS/2 will vanish by the time.

I am thinking about all the other Drivers/programs that started as more or less open Projects:

- UNIAUD
- SAMBA
- FIREFOX
- DANIS
- USB Support (what will happen if Lars Erdmann stops his developement?...)
- QSINIT (!) (last Updated in May 2017 - without this Loader ArcaOS simply would not function as it does)
- will "ArcaOS SNAP" only work with ArcaOS? (Yes, SNAP was not free but free standalone available!)
- MULTIMAC (?)
....

Are These already closed? Or on the way?

And in Addition: the community pushed all These enhancements, inlcuding ArcaNoae, with not only buying Subsriptions but also filling Bug Reports, spreading the News, Holding User Events and so on.

In Germany we have a saying: Die Katze aus dem Sack lassen.

Maybe it is time to strenghten arms and Support Martins suggestions when it Comes to Open Source, or other approaches for a new kernel (OS/4 kernel, Lars USB Drivers...) - or just simply move to something else.









Dave Yeo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 8
  • -Receive: 98
  • Posts: 1168
    • View Profile
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2017, 08:40:33 am »
Look at the licenses. Samba, Uniaud and Firefox pretty well have to stay open. The others are proprietary or in the case of the multimac, now BSD (was GPL). The others, well the kernel itself is controlled by IBM along with most of the base system. Other parts, it's hard to say. Arca Noae is a business and interested in pushing ArcaOS but has claimed they'll continue supporting OS/2 and eCS. I think that generally they will try to support older versions but things like the kernel will limit things.

Eventually, we'll be screwed by the new 64 bit world. More and more stuff will target 64bit and grow until it won't run on 32bit or is much more crashy due to memory limits like Firefox. OS/2 is never going to be 64bit as too much would need rewriting.

Rene Hvidsoe

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2017, 06:30:52 pm »
Hi Sigurd,

I have the same issue, just raised a ticket and asked Arca Noae support.
I have Subscription.


Andy Willis

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 11
  • Posts: 162
    • View Profile
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2017, 02:38:03 am »
Arca Noae's license, from IBM, does not allow distribution of the kernel out of the context of ArcaOS.  IBM has no claim on ACPI, AHCI, or MultiMac and, hence, have no such restrictions.  The new ACPI has no requirement for the new kernel, though, some hardware may not work without the new kernel due to needing over IRQ 31 (same problem exists with the older ACPI, except could result in a trap rather than just the hardware not working).

Alex Taylor

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 10
  • -Receive: 16
  • Posts: 218
    • View Profile
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2017, 07:56:38 am »
Just to add to Andy's response: Arca Noae is not trying to close off anything.  ACPI and the other drivers are and continue to be applicable to OS/2 and eCS systems.

The only different point here is that the updated ArcaOS kernel can only be applied to ArcaOS.  This should make sense, since it replaces (upgrades) the already-updated kernel in ArcaOS 5.0.  This is not a "marketing" decision, but a simple contractual one.  Arca Noae has permission from IBM to distribute updated kernels only as part of ArcaOS, as Andy has indicated.

Sigurd Fastenrath

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 13
  • -Receive: 30
  • Posts: 325
    • View Profile
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2017, 08:25:31 am »
(I am curious: wat is the exact text of that warning message?

I attach two Pictures, both showing what happen if you upgrade OS/2 with ACPI 3.23.06 not using the new kernel (at least it is what happens here in Virtualbox and real Hardware - Lenovo X200T - , I do not know if it may be different on other Hardware/Systems):

Picture "Kernel201fehlt" Shows the Boot message warning.
Picture "Kenrel201fehlt2" proofs what you can see on top of the first Picture as well: No more use of SMP anymore possible, only ONE kernel usable even if there is the /MAXCPU Switch set.

-> Conclusion: it really does make a difference wheter or not being able to use the new kernel. Not using Limits you to only one kernel, what makes SMP Systems obsolete.

Copying the Kernel 14.201 from the extracted WPI or the parallel installed ArcaOS simply heals that. (Warning: Yes, this is a licence Violation and was done for testing and proofing only!)  :P ::) ??? :o

I think I will take a look at the OS/4 kernel again, just downloaded the new Version of it. I guess the "Legal Status" of this kernel is still not proofen if it is legal or not. But....




« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 08:42:32 am by Sigurd Fastenrath »

Martin Iturbide

  • OS2World NewsMaster
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 242
  • -Receive: 49
  • Posts: 1633
  • Your Friend Wil Declares...
    • View Profile
    • Martin's Personal Blog
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2017, 06:17:35 pm »
Hi Sigurd.

Is "ACPI 3.23.06" on a "Non ArcaOS Kernel 14.201" limiting the functionality that you used to have with ACPI.PSD in some way? Or it is just an annoying message?

Update: From what I get in Sigurd post, is that if you update to "ACPI 3.23.06" and don't update the kernel "ArcaOS Kernel 14.201" on a SMP system it will only load/recognize one processor, right?

If it is just the annoying message, that is the importance to have the "QUIET Mode" on the ACPI driver (ticket that I opened with no reply yet).

Can you also try the "ACPI.PSD /Q" to see if the Warning message shows up. I will be trying it too.

Regards
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 07:01:04 pm by Martin Iturbide »
Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.

Dariusz Piatkowski

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 9
  • -Receive: 9
  • Posts: 255
    • View Profile
Re: "This is the end...." for OS/2 and eCS Users getting closer.....
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2017, 07:37:05 pm »
Andy & Alex:
Thank you gentlemen, that is the AN/IBM license constraint confirmation that at least I myself wanted to see clarified.

Does anyone care to explain whether the ArcaOS supplied modules/components will continue to work on a genuine OS/2 ((IBM 14.106 SMP Retail in my case) install, should they be physically moved to such an install?

If purchasing ArcaOS is needed to continue to benefit from the upcoming improvements, as in the past, I am happy to do so this time as well. However, I would like to know ahead of time that technically what I am proposing is possible and there will not be any software built-in restrictions, such as checking specific OS release levels, etc, etc.