Author Topic: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation  (Read 40993 times)

guzzi

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2014, 02:04:11 am »
As for Sigurd, it is nonsense that all ecosoft sotware is 'bad'. I do use ecosoft software and am very happy with some of the software I bought from them. Especially the stuff developed by Glassman. On several occasions he has corrected minor bugs or added features, some major additions, on my request, usually very fast.

Can you please say a little bit more? What software exactly?



dvd/cdtoys, zippy.

I agree, these are cool. There are some limitations I've noticed while using Zippy, like some d'n'd lacks and some odd GUI drawbacks, but both dvdtoys and zippy are pretty cool pieces of software.

If you have issues, write to Glassman or Eugene, in my experience defects get fixed fast and feature requests, at least mine, have all been implemented ( I asked for command line options for zippy, it got added).

But there is an issue regarding prices. Zippy costs 913 Russian rubles; summing it with DVD/CD toys (1248), and we get 2161 Russian rubbles; converting to USD, and we get roughly $60. eComStation 2.1 Home & Student license costs 149 USD.

Sorry I'm not ready to pay 149$ for a base operating system, and then nearly half of it to be able to burn optical media and upack compressed archives. Please remember also that eCo Software offers two software subscriptions 15$ each annually (quoting, first: "sysinfo + russification + fixpack + eCo Market + Panorama VESA", second: "png desktop + piano launchpad + virtual keyboard + file open container").

149+60+15+15 = $239.

I have paid far more over the years with software subscription from Mensys, upgrading a few times from  OS/2 2.1  and a host of shareware programs I have bought since 1994 when I started using OS/2. I don't regret it. It was all free choice.

Show me that insane person who've paid $239 for a bunch of not-that-well developed outdated software, while knowing there's a Windows 8.1 license selling at $119 which includes all these features and lots more, but costs twice as lower.

You are talking to that insane person)))) What I personally think is more insane is that a bottle of Russki Standart in Russia is much more expensive than a bottle of similar quality no-brand vodka in Germany)
I have a netbook running Windows 7. I used Windows at work. Twice as cheap, 10 times the aggrovation)



I literally interpret all the above as an attempt to squeeze the last cent from the community.

I don't see it that way. There are alternatives that you can use. Nobody forces you to buy the software.


I would better pay that sum for open source software development work rather than getting a copy of middle-quality software with no rights.

Yes and no. Zippy and dvd/cd toys were developed because some money could be made from it. Despite the price, it won't be much money because the user base is small. If, and only if, people would shell out the money anyway to pay for other people developing similar software open source, that would indeed be better. But people don't, or only in a limited way. You and Martin talk about 'squeezing money out of people'. That isn't the case. Nobody forces you to buy. I would of course prefer if ecosoft would produce open source software. I'm not so sure they would be able to continue as a business if they did.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2014, 03:58:56 pm »
Trying to not drift away, it is not which model is right or wrong. It is which model do we need right now.

- eComStation uses a lot of open source software, without it, it will be just Warp 4.52.
- The more interesting software ported to this platform latetly had been from projects that had been originally open sourced (OpenJDK, Qt, Firefox, OpenOffice, Qt apps ported, etc)
- Open source reduces the risk of vendor dependency. IBM dumped us in the past and can happen again, with open source we reduce that risk.
- We should stop thinking that we will be the last ones, there will be people left after we leave the community. It will be better to leave software and documents for this platforms that allows derivative works without the dependency of a single person or group.

Open Source it is not the saver, or the end of the world. It is just the model that is working for us right now. I see open source as the path, the community and persons using and developing for the platform are "the savers".

That's why I see that should start to care about the close source components an try to clone them in the open source path (PM, SOM, WPS, Control Program, etc).
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Dave Yeo

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2014, 04:46:06 pm »
Hi,

> ... wrote> I'm sorry Alexander that your forum thread got hi-jacked [...]

Our current thread reminds me of what I have been enduring for the last 17 years in my professional IT business life:

IT orthology everywhere: `Agile`, `Waterfall`, `Constistence`, `Closed`, `Open`, etc.

I dare a humble philosophical Zwischenschnitt aus dem Rheinland:

In Sun VirtualBox 4.3.12 on a MacBook, I still cannot compile Agena with our eCS Demo CD with a plugged-in virtual FAT16 2GB hard disk at IDE primary slave residing my GCC 4.9.0 devenv.

Please tell me what am I doing wrong ?

Alex
http://agena.sourceforge.net


with U: everywhere changed to C:

[C:\]usr\local490\gcc490

[C:\]make

Killed by SIGSEGV
pid=0x011b ppid=0x011a tid=0x0001 slot=0x0051 pri=0x0200 mc=0x00
C:\USR\BIN\MAKE.EXE
LIBC065 0:0005dfdc
cs:eip=005b:1de9dfdc      ss:esp=0053:0014f480      ebp=0014f498
 ds=0053      es=0053      fs=150b      gs=0000     efl=00010246
eax=00000047 ebx=00027c31 ecx=00027c67 edx=00027c47 edi=00027c31
Process dumping was disabled, use DUMPPROC / PROCDUMP to enable

GCC 4.9.0 is buggy as hell along with having enough changes that much code no longer compiles. And this before any weaknesses that may appear in porting to OS/2. Many are waiting for 4.9.1 or staying with previous version. At least that's the hearsay I've heard.
Personally I find Pauls build of 4.4.6 to be the most stable

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2014, 06:05:34 pm »
Hi Dave

I'm glad to see that post, I just emailed Alex :-

 "GCC v4.9 to me seems to be a bit unstable, I regressed back to v4.8.2 but thats just me :)"
Cheers
Ian B Manners

Andy Willis

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2014, 07:07:05 pm »
[C:\]usr\local490\gcc490

[C:\]make

Killed by SIGSEGV
pid=0x011b ppid=0x011a tid=0x0001 slot=0x0051 pri=0x0200 mc=0x00
C:\USR\BIN\MAKE.EXE
LIBC065 0:0005dfdc
cs:eip=005b:1de9dfdc      ss:esp=0053:0014f480      ebp=0014f498
 ds=0053      es=0053      fs=150b      gs=0000     efl=00010246
eax=00000047 ebx=00027c31 ecx=00027c67 edx=00027c47 edi=00027c31
Process dumping was disabled, use DUMPPROC / PROCDUMP to enable

GCC 4.9.0 is buggy as hell along with having enough changes that much code no longer compiles. And this before any weaknesses that may appear in porting to OS/2. Many are waiting for 4.9.1 or staying with previous version. At least that's the hearsay I've heard.
Personally I find Pauls build of 4.4.6 to be the most stable
For all that...  GCC may not necessarily be at issue.  The crash is in make.  Which make is being used? Or from whence did it come?

dbanet

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2014, 08:02:06 pm »
Yes and no. Zippy and dvd/cd toys were developed because some money could be made from it. Despite the price, it won't be much money because the user base is small. If, and only if, people would shell out the money anyway to pay for other people developing similar software open source, that would indeed be better. But people don't, or only in a limited way. You and Martin talk about 'squeezing money out of people'. That isn't the case. Nobody forces you to buy. I would of course prefer if ecosoft would produce open source software. I'm not so sure they would be able to continue as a business if they did.

Yes, this is capitalism, and there's nothing illegal (usually) in what Eugene does with the software.

But there's an issue again.

I've described feelings of a hypothetical new user (don't laugh please here, there are some). And that's what he/she sees: wherever you go, there's pay, pay, pay, pay, no matter that even the base OS costs more than brand new Win 8.1, huh... not funny, this is sad.



When the community has got limited resources, it is better to finance Open Source projects, than buying commercial software.

In the first case you pay and you make good to yourself and the others.
In the second case you pay and you may or may not make good to yourself and the commercial structure you pay to.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 08:08:58 pm by Boris »

Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2014, 09:58:12 pm »
Two arguments:

1) Moreover, the users get Windows license for free (with new computer). So it's clear that we can't sell OS/2 to new people.
OS/2 can be sold to new customers only if:
* a company purchases it ..
* .. to use as black box (with running program which performs one task)

So, this example that OS/2 + shareware apps  is more expensive than Win 8 licenses with the included apps  is not important in our discussion.


2) Again, nobody can demonstrate examples of open source software created in OS/2. (yes, I see many small open sourced free utilities). There are many open source apps ported  from linux only. In reality, there is no OS/2 Open Source projects (we have .. ~ 5 .. 10 open source projects of medium size only: XWP, PM123, Warpin, ..).



> it is better to finance Open Source projects, than buying commercial software.

(it's equal to "it is better to finance porting from Linux, than buying native software").

So, this conclusion is dangerous and wrong.

You recommend to users pay for "imported" software. And don't support developers of native software. This kills OS/2 platform.

For Dutch users: Imagine that all milk in your shops is imported from Romania, all beef from Argentina, all cheese from Switzerland. Tulips from Turkey, etc. As result, dutch people will spend more time watching TV because of unemployment.


My conclusion from our discussion:
Imported software should pay taxes. Imported libraries should be free of taxes. But it's impossible to collect the taxes. In this case, it's necessary prohibit the sponsorship of applications porting. And support porting of libraries only.


« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 11:22:51 pm by Eugene Gorbunoff »

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2014, 10:30:17 pm »
Eugene. Imagine a world without frontiers when nothing it is imported and everything is just from "one world".

There are important open source software on OS/2, free and paid. Belive it or not ACPI is based from an open source software (non-copyleft), Qt, OpenOffice, etc... everything is important. eComStation is almost Warp 4.5 with open source software on it, is eComStation project important to you?

Saying that porting open source software, is like importing milk to country that produced milk just sounds like nationalist/populist political crap. Don't make dumb comparisons, Japan does imports everything and convert is to better stuff, it is island factory that convert goods.  Now you start saying that Open Source is a fiasco on eComstation.ru? Please Eugene, this discussion is hurting you.

Let fix this is in the capitalistic way. Is your company giving you money? Can you post your company revenue results of the last year? Is you company sustainable?

I'm sorry Eugene. I think I'm making a mistake giving you so much space. The good thing is that discussion is public and people can take their own conclusions.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 10:38:35 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2014, 10:40:20 pm »
> Imagine a world without frontiers when nothing it is imported and everything is just from "one world".

Is it joke? Look at Europe Union, one economical zone. Yes, Germany, Netherlands live in prosperity, but Eastern Europe, Greece, Spain automatically become poor. If introduce import taxes between EU member again, then South/East countries will restore their economical state.

The frontiers are important and will exist forever.


> ACPI is based from an open source software (non-copyleft), Qt, OpenOffice, etc... everything is important.

Green corridor:
* Qt is the runtime, library. It should be ported.
* ACPI is the driver. it should be ported.


Red corridor:
* Qt GUI apps
* Windows GUI apps (Odin )


Red corridor exceptions:
* OpenOffice is the end-user, GUI applications, it's bad that it is ported. As result, 0 native editors, office suites. On the other side, there is no analogue, so it may be ported, income should be forwarded to native software
* Firefox. no analogues, => may be ported, it's difficult take taxes.


> Now you start saying that Open Source is a fiasco on eComstation.ru?

No, I say that open source is a form to achieve the goal, not the goal.
There are other tasks and goals, and open sourcing is used since 90-th already.


> I think I'm making a mistake giving you so much space.

There is not problems here, the moderators remove my messages from this forum periodically.

Moreover, you need critics. If you are going visit OS/2 events (conferences) and talk with other users and developers, you will listen that other people don't understand your plan of Open Sourcing. As I said: To develop open source apps you need 1000x more money that to develop semi-commercial software. People (european developers) don't understand where are you going find financial resources?

I will repeat one more time: To develop open source software you should spend millions dollars. To develop semi-commercial eComStation you can spend N thousand dollars. The investors/sponsors of eCS didn't had millions, they had restricted resources, that's why eCS is not open-source.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 10:50:23 pm by Eugene Gorbunoff »

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2014, 10:59:06 pm »
Eugene, this is OS/2. Not Window, not Linux. There is no market share for shareware to end users. If making open source software on OS/2 is not sustainable, making shareware on this platform is less sustainable.

Please tell me:
Is your company giving you money? Can you post your company revenue results of the last year? Is you company sustainable?


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dbanet

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2014, 11:04:33 pm »
Two arguments:

1) Moreover, the users get Windows license for free (with new computer).

False, it is included in the price of the machine.

So it's clear that we can't sell OS/2 to new people.

True, you can't.

OS/2 can be sold to new customers only if:

The price will be lower than Windows. Currently Windows is obviously a better OS for a user than OS/2. So the price should be lower.

* a company purchases it ..

Soon there will be no such companies, as they will migrate. Sticking to this means killing OS/2 even more.

* .. to use as black box (with running program which performs one task)

Not efficient. Why would I pay that much for OS/2 if I have a lot more flexible GNU/Linux? For free?

So, this example that OS/2 + shareware apps  is more expensive than Win 8 licenses with the included apps  is not important in our discussion.

What? How the !@#$ you've managed to make that conclusion? I've literally busted all your previous logic there, above ^.

You want to achieve something, but you are obviously a very bad politician (or an advocate).

In the rush to try to prove something you make a lot of stupid mistakes wholly breaking the logic; you give false facts, and do wrong conclusions.

2) Again, nobody can demonstrate examples of open source software created in OS/2. (yes, I see many small open sourced free utilities). There are many open source apps ported  from linux only. In reality, there is no OS/2 Open Source projects (we have .. ~ 5 .. 10 open source projects of medium size only: XWP, PM123, Warpin, ..).

Dude, are you !x#$ing insane?? https://github.com/OS2World/

Any of the guys who have written code, invested their time and resources and then made their work available to everyone (including you, tho they better did not!) are much more valuable than all your stuff and the whole your company!

> it is better to finance Open Source projects, than buying commercial software.

So, this conclusion is dangerous and wrong.

You are dangerous and wrong.

You recommend to users pay for "imported" software. And don't support developers of native software. This kills OS/2 platform.

For Dutch users: Imagine that all milk in your shops is imported from Romania, all beef from Argentina, all cheese from Switzerland. Tulips from Turkey, etc. As result, dutch people will spend more time watching TV because of unemployment.


My conclusion from our discussion:
Imported software should pay taxes. Imported libraries should be free of taxes. But it's impossible to collect the taxes. In this case, it's necessary prohibit the sponsorship of applications porting. And support porting of libraries only.

Have I already said you are a very bad politician?

Now you are starting to rave. WTF is "import taxes"?

How did you ever think of that b^ll$41t?



Please, everyone. Any commercial structure is made to make money.

Including Eugene's. No matter how efficient it is. The thing is that a commercial structure will not ever do anything good to people (community) if it will not be able to make any cent of it. That's how capitalism works.

The situation gets critical when a company's CEO is not capable of making long-term strategies, which is our case.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 10:41:45 am by Ian Manners »

Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2014, 11:34:58 pm »
To Boris (dbanet): you are the only person here who uses all this words (!@#$, b^ll$h1t, ..).

Martin said: "We are merry and fun community of users".

« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 10:42:29 am by Ian Manners »

dbanet

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2014, 11:44:46 pm »

To Boris (dbanet): you are the only person here who uses all this words (!@#$, b^ll$h1t, ..).

Martin said: "We are merry and fun community of users".

Usage of obscene language is not the main thing people take into consideration while assessing other people, Eugene.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 10:43:14 am by Ian Manners »

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2014, 11:49:08 pm »
Eugene please tell me:
Is your company giving you money? Can you post your company revenue results of the last year? Is you company sustainable? Is the shareware businss model working for you on eComStation?
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Ian Manners

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2014, 07:43:18 am »
Hi Boris,

Quote
Usage of obscene language is not the main thing people take into consideration while assessing other people, Eugene.

True but I reserve that language for American Abuse desks who keep telling me to simply unsubscribe from spam.
oh, and for Disney Studio who provide a digital download edition of Marvel titles that require Flash and a special app for Windows, Mac, or Android only but they forget to tell you than when you buy the BR disk.

Could you edit your posts above and change the wording thanks, that way we keep it 'civil' :)

Added ==>  so that os2world.com isn't classified as an adult forum.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 07:44:54 am by Ian Manners »
Cheers
Ian B Manners