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OS/2 Vs. Windows... The Debate Rages On

Started by S.SubZero, 2007.11.02, 08:49:11

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Saijin_Naib

http://www.scitechsoft.com/chiplist/snap_os2_chiplist.html
Ya, don't go by Serenity's site, they tend to be a little bit laggard in updating information.

I was checking this list earlier tonight because I was looking to buy a used/refurb/for parts laptop on ebay and make myself a little mobile eCS box :) The Asus EEE PC is ideal (seems it anyway), but far too costly right now.

I have not messed with UPCD or slipstreaming in Windows, It sounds very convenient, but I know I would ruin something, rather have Microsoft Update and eCSMT do it for me.

S.SubZero

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2007.11.06, 15:27:38
http://www.scitechsoft.com/chiplist/snap_os2_chiplist.html
Ya, don't go by Serenity's site, they tend to be a little bit laggard in updating information.
I saw this tho:
http://www.warpupdates.mynetcologne.de/english/hard_graphics.html

The X850 is listed as "requires Professional Edition" which wasn't too reassuring. 
Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2007.11.06, 15:27:38
I have not messed with UPCD or slipstreaming in Windows, It sounds very convenient, but I know I would ruin something, rather have Microsoft Update and eCSMT do it for me.
But they can't fix a problem that affects the installation process.  If you can't get Windows installed, Windows Update is kind of useless.  If ECS won't install, eCSMT doesn't matter much.  With OS/2 this is a little more critical as there have been several updates over the years just for hardware weirdness, like the frequent "OS/2 doesn't like >X hard drive size again.. time to patch IBM1S506!"  There's also goofy stuff like *this* and *this*.  ECS crashing 10 seconds into the CD boot.. this sort of thing is what integrated fixes are meant to address.

It also just consolidates and simplifies the installation process.  Windows XP is especially frightening now, it's over six years old.  Do YOU want to install a circa 2001 XP (SP0) disc and then run Windows Update?  First off you better have a good book to read.  Second, it's unlikely it will even finish since that reboot crash exploit is still floating around.  Having a fresh, current XP install disc speeds up the installation and gets you going much faster.  Back to OS/2, the integrated fixes shave off several reboots and mean less media to deal with.  UPDCD will happily let you throw whatever you want on the install disc, and will copy it all over to a directory of your choice.  UPDCD is a chore to set up though, but hey I did it, and I haven't touched OS/2 in over a decade.  It can't be that bad. 8)

Saijin_Naib

Oh it can. I have no joke, reinstalled eCS over 50 times in the past year, on this computer alone.
We dont get along well, its a love-hate thing.

lwriemen

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2007.11.06, 16:18:13
Oh it can. I have no joke, reinstalled eCS over 50 times in the past year, on this computer alone.
We dont get along well, its a love-hate thing.

It sounds like you need to understand the OS better. Maybe eCS's easier install has made using OS/2 too easy.

lwriemen

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2007.11.06, 15:13:00
Yours as well sir, could be just opinion.
Some opinion, some fact, but I wasn't the one trying to pass one of as the other.

lwriemen

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2007.11.06, 15:13:00
2) People arent forced, and if they were, they would do something about it. Self mastery comes to mind.

People ARE forced to use Windows. Go read the findings of the antitrust court. Most people don't realize they are forced, or they would rebel. The "applications barrier to entry" is what forces people to "choose" Windows.

Saijin_Naib

#36
 I choose to use windows, and I choose to use eCS. I have my freedom, and I exercise it.

You assume much about me. I had a IBM Aptiva with OS/2. I had OS/2 running on my Compaq Presario. I tried getting eCS to work on my sisters Gateway, and my friends custom built SLI computer. You are right, I do need to learn more. And I am trying to do so, hence why I trash/reinstall so often. If I mess something up, I start clean, and try to get past that point. If I wasnt trying to learn, I would not have kept reinstalling...

DavidG

Quote from: Saijin_Naib on 2007.11.06, 21:28:17
I choose to use windows, and I choose to use eCS. I have my freedom, and I exercise it.

You assume much about me. I had a IBM Aptiva with OS/2. I had OS/2 running on my Compaq Presario. I tried getting eCS to work on my sisters Gateway, and my friends custom built SLI computer. You are right, I do need to learn more. And I am trying to do so, hence why I trash/reinstall so often. If I mess something up, I start clean, and try to get past that point. If I wasnt trying to learn, I would not have kept reinstalling...

This is exactly how I learned to use OS/2 and now eCS and even Windows.  Of course, Windows I did not have to experiment to trash the parititon.  It was always just a matter of time.  I was always trying new and different things.  If I messed up my partition, I just reinstalled and learned more each time.  Everyday is a new learning experience.  If I had a question, there was always plenty of people to ask online.

RobertM

Quote from: S.SubZero on 2007.11.06, 16:12:19
But they can't fix a problem that affects the installation process.  If you can't get Windows installed, Windows Update is kind of useless.  If ECS won't install, eCSMT doesn't matter much.  With OS/2 this is a little more critical as there have been several updates over the years just for hardware weirdness, like the frequent "OS/2 doesn't like >X hard drive size again.. time to patch IBM1S506!"  There's also goofy stuff like *this* and *this*.  ECS crashing 10 seconds into the CD boot.. this sort of thing is what integrated fixes are meant to address.

I dont know if you realize this, but you can replace virtually any driver (that will cause it not to install) on the eCS install disk with another one - in addition you can add new drivers (like SCSI, etc) that dont come on the disk.

I had one eCS 1.2MR install that would not go on a certain piece of hardware (the IDE drivers didnt support the weird SATA chipset). The newest version of the drivers does support it. I simply mounted the CD, replaced the IDE driver (and added the license key to the disk in a readme so I could import it directly from the CD) and re-burnt it. Done deal.

In addition, there are tools out there that help you modify the install disks to overcome installation issues due to lacking or outdated or incorrect/buggy drivers.

On top of that, with EVERY version of OS/2 since at least v2.1, OS/2 came with instructions on how to modify the installation disks to replace and/or add drivers in order to get it to install on hardware that was not supported when the version first came out.


On Windows, it takes a considerable amount of effort to achieve the same thing. And heck, until Vista, you couldnt even install Windows on *ANY* machine that had SATA (unless the machine had a BIOS setting to translate the SATA interface over to IDE so XP would recognize it). You would need the SATA driver disk to install, or the OEM XP Install disk (which didnt always work... numerous OEM's; including HP & Compaq, would forget to put the SATA drivers on their otherwise generic XP install disk, rendering the entire install set useless).


Since much of what OS/2 does during the installation process is controlled by the config.sys file and by scripts, it is VERY easy to (a) customize an OS/2 install with just minor computer knowledge, (b) change or add drivers, or (c) create your own custom network/other media installation setup. As a matter of fact, there's TONS of documentation on how to do that. With a Warp Server machine (any version - as well as long before Warp's release), you can even set the server to be your "install drive" and it will walk you through each step including creation of the thin client boot and network portions so the install gets done from the server through the network. The entire process can also be tailored to install what you want, how you want. It took MS years longer to get that feature sort of working.


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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RobertM

#39
Quote from: lwriemen on 2007.11.06, 19:41:05
People ARE forced to use Windows. Go read the findings of the antitrust court. Most people don't realize they are forced, or they would rebel. The "applications barrier to entry" is what forces people to "choose" Windows.


Let me clarify this point for lwriemen,

Go read the findings in the U.S. Antitrust cases (NUMEROUS, including ongoing ones), and in the EU Antitrust case (which just earned MS a half a billion dollar fine), as well as tons of smaller cases on U.S. state and personal level.

Interesting (disgusting really) reads... including the numerous documents where they admit to trying to kill or stifle competition, trick consumers into thinking that Internet=IE, PC=Windows - and nothing else is part of a PC.

Do you have any idea of how many people (when I did tech work for CompUSA and elsewhere) would come in and tell me "When I clicked on the Internet, this happened." thinking that IE *IS* the Internet? Or how many people thought they were offline because they didnt click on the "Internet" (IE)?

Or how many people would come in asking to buy a Windows?
"You mean a PC, right?"
"Is it Windows?"
"No, but it comes with it"
"Well, I dont want it then. I want a Windows with 2 (somethings) of RAM so I can _____"
"No, you dont understand, you want a computer with Windows ON it"

Similarly, people would think that Office was part of a PC, again thanks to MS's deceptive marketing. But because of that, how many of them do you think would even consider OpenOffice? "Is it Office 2007? I was 'told' that a PC has to have/is that (by MS's ads)"


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Kirk's 5 Year Mission Continues at:
Star Trek New Voyages
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Saijin_Naib

This isnt unique. Think of Apple and (in my eyes) its far more decptive and cult-ish approach. Every Digital Audio Player is NOT an Ipod. Tell that to 100+million people with stupid fckin white earbuds and a superiority complex that would make Napolean blush. People who arent savvy arent savvy, does not mean they were duped, but they simply do not understand the terminology.

In regards to how many eCS installs I have trashed, it has helped me to learn. I have butchered many windows installs in my younger days, but I have come to a point where I am more than proficient enough to where it never throws me something I cant handle (and since wink2k, Ive really no need for these skills). In fact, the only recent reformat I had to do for windows was courtesey of Feisty Fawn and GPARTED, coupled with Zeta's aggressive install routine = wrecked partition tables (my fault as well, I coudnt get the desired result with DFSEE).

As for reading legal documents, they are out of my interest and my ability to interpret. Any legal document is inherently loaded, just the same as the scientific documents I must read for my day to day learning. Atleast I am savvy enough there to guide myself...

Also, Im tapping out for now  :P

os2monkey

I prefer os/2 and other alternative operating systems so I'm not exactly in the Microsoft fan club..  BUT I just don't buy that anyone is really being forced to use Microsoft products nor that it's not possible to create a competitive product.
Strongly coerced by standards and brainwashed by marketing, maybe, but not forced.

The fact is that every great product is usually a great risk against established odds, and when good enough it usually replaces the old.

After 1983 the commodore 64 sold almost 20 million computers (which I believe is the largest number of a single computer model ever sold). Do you not think this created a strong "barrier to entry" for other computer systems and platforms?
Regardless there are no commodore computers being sold today - they where replaced with something better, just like what will most likely happen to microsoft eventually.

Ok so you will probably say that microsoft controls technology standards which makes it nearly impossible to compete with them.
(office documents, html standards etc).
While that's true that they are using their position to maintain dominance, it's not impossible to thwart them. For example using wine or emulation, people don't "have" to stick with windows.

My wife prefers to use IE browser regardless of how I have explained how it's not as secure and also Microsoft uses it to control internet standards to keep competition out.
Yet for some reason unknown to me she still prefers it.
Many people prefer it, many people don't know or care to know about the alternatives. I see preference & ignorance, but no forcing.
That same ignorance can be used against Microsoft as well.. For example every time I work on someone’s computer I install Firefox (and encourage them to use it as it is more "secure"). Not sure how many people take my advice, but I'm pretty sure those that do - do not exactly "research" my opinion, they just assume I know what I'm talking about.

Furthermore it seems inevitable to me the open source software will dominate eventually, with all of the heavy hitters pushing it (IBM, SUN etc) and by the fact that it's mostly free. Microsoft can't really compete easily against free if the free product keeps getting superior.

S.SubZero

Quote from: RobertM on 2007.11.06, 22:27:47
I dont know if you realize this, but you can replace virtually any driver (that will cause it not to install) on the eCS install disk with another one - in addition you can add new drivers (like SCSI, etc) that dont come on the disk.
Yes, as long as you keep up with that you're fine.  Integrating entire fixpacks not only takes care of this, but it also trims down all those post-install reboots.  My install shaves off five separate reboots for fixpack stuff, and means that any of those potential problems during install are taken care of.

Quote from: RobertM on 2007.11.06, 22:27:47
On Windows, it takes a considerable amount of effort to achieve the same thing. And heck, until Vista, you couldnt even install Windows on *ANY* machine that had SATA (unless the machine had a BIOS setting to translate the SATA interface over to IDE so XP would recognize it). You would need the SATA driver disk to install, or the OEM XP Install disk (which didnt always work... numerous OEM's; including HP & Compaq, would forget to put the SATA drivers on their otherwise generic XP install disk, rendering the entire install set useless).
To be fair, in 2001 the number of external ways to get data into a PC during an install was kind of limited.  The USB keychain thing hadn't really happened yet, and most PCs of the day had floppy drives.  At least with Windows the third party would ship their hardware with a solution.  It wasn't hinged on someone else who may or may not deliver a solution.  I personally never had a problem installing XP on SATA, I did so way back in 2003 without any special driver.  To level the playing field, since your OS/2 + SATA problem was solved with an existing OS/2 install you could use to make a new disk, it would only be fair to give the XP person the same crutch, and for that crutch I would just throw nLite at the problem (http://www.nliteos.com/).  Easy, painless driver integration, and you can throw in a service pack, hotfixes, updated IE, whatever.

I was not aware of a problem with OEMs (like Compaq which hasn't existed as a company since before SATA) wasn't including SATA disks with their hardware.  Do you have any links regarding information on this?

os2monkey

I also think the main thing that has kept microsoft dominance is basically a lack of guts by other companies - not really anything microsoft is preventing.
I mean IBM could have killed MS windows if they had commited themselves to os/2 and really pushed it. Os/2 was better then windows 95, and it was really a lack of firm commitement and good marketing that did them it.
They where afraid of losing short term profits, and gave up the golden goose.

Likewise if dell, hp, gateway etc wanted to kill microsoft all they have to do is stop shipping windows and sell only linux pc's. If all of the mainstream computer companies did that the game would be over for microsoft quick. Sure, Dell would be too scared to make such a "drastic" move because they would be risking short term profits and the future of the company itself... but all great companies make such moves.

If the competitors would stop whining about monopolization and just make the bold moves they need to make, there would be nothing to talk about as far as Microsoft is concerned.

El Vato

Quote from: S.SubZero on 2007.11.06, 15:21:41
Quote from: El Vato on 2007.11.06, 08:21:47
The last version of the SNAP for OS//2 supports ATI's X850 series video card.  I believe that it is included with eCS.  For someone as successful as yourself, the acquisition of eCS would not represent a serious financial hit as it would be for, say a student, like Saijin_Naib.
One of the ways I maintain the financial freedoms my success provides me is not throwing money around needlessly. I'm certainly not going to make any monetary investment into OS/2, it's too fleeting of a moment for me.

This is the first statement that you should have disclosed to our friend who is doing his OS/2 research.   You should have stated that you are not qualified --either because you are not willing to allocate the appropriate knowledge, experience, and monetary resources-- to provide an fair and unbiased assessment of the operating system functionality.  Clearly, the comparison was being done against an (some) operating system(s) with far more monetary and/or human resources, as would be WinXX and Linux distros, respectively.

Needless to say, this is an example of the (insightful) responsibility for one's free will that an individual acquires.
[...]
Quote from: S.SubZero on 2007.11.06, 15:21:41
Quote from: El Vato on 2007.11.06, 08:21:47Candidly speaking, you need eCS because you are not technically proficient to upgrade your (older) OS/2 version on your own.  Although some of us continue using the older releases of the operating system, we know how to keep the OS/2 updated either with freely available software and/or through non-redistribution agreements for the drivers that we acquire.
[...]
The X850 isn't here.
[...]
Why do you keep attacking me?  Do you feel personal attacks somehow boost your position? .

Not at all.

I repeat, the last version of SNAP has support for ATI's X850 series video card but, and this is not a personal attack but a fact, you are not technically proficient to upgrade OS/2 to the current level that eCS users are experiencing --video is but an aspect of the OS/2.

Let me think of an appropriate though necessarily imperfect analogy.  If you are no doctor but pretended to revive (and force to compete with newer generations) and old guy like El Vato(your current OS/2) by simply applying a blood transfusion(fixpak) from the pool of slightly younger sources, would probably illustrate the concept --in a more mundane manner-- that I tried to convey in prior post.

In other words, merely because you flipped a switch (or switches as the routine advanced) to initiate and/or complete the blood transfusion does not make you a doctor.  Where is the offense in that observation???

Accordingly, unless an doctor is dealing with zombies, those of us who know the OS/2 do not engage in a mindless process of reinstallation after reinstallation when something does not work in the OS/2.  We diagnose the problem by zeroing into the appropriate entity and/or component; we perform an ..."surgical" procedure to extract and replace the offending driver and or file (executable and/or dll, etc.) that is causing the undesired behaviour.  If we do not have the replacement, we tap into resources that may only be available to you under an eCS license. 

Again where is the offense in my candid statement?
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