Author Topic: Vbox5.06 beta  (Read 15001 times)

Pete

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2016, 08:41:18 pm »
Hi Valery and All

So curl and libcurl are the same package?

I ask because the readme states

   yum install gettext libxml2 libxslt openssl libcurl zlib
   .
   .
   yum install urpo yum install expat curl mmap


The joy of the zip packages at http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/ is it is easy to pick the wrong version(s) hence my suggestion of including the full zip name of the package required eg libaio-0_0_1-5_oc00.zip.

I guess I must have just about the right libraries installed as vbox runs and I have a Windows7 vm working. I did not keep a list of the packages that I installed although I can list those downloaded:-

http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/curl-7_37_0-2_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/expat-2_1_0-12_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/gettext-0_19_8_1-3_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/glib2-2_33_12-5_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/libaio-0_0_1-5_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/libcx-0_3_1-1_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/libidl-0_8_14-6_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/libjpeg-8c-1_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/libpng-1_6_21-3_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/libvncserver-0_9_10-4_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/libvpx-1_4_0-1_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/libxml2-2_7_7-5_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/libxslt-1_1_26-2_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/mmap-20111102-8_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/openssl-1_0_2h-3_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/pthread-20151229-21_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/sdl-1_2_15-1_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/urpo-20160630-12_oc00.zip
http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/zlib-1_2_5-5_oc00.


I already had some of the above and other required libraries installed - probably in support of cups, seamonkey and other software.


I have been attempting to get my Windows7 vm running a little faster. My first thought was to increase the memory from 512MB to 1024Mb but that does not help at all. Trying to boot the vm results in vbox displaying a "critical error" message which results in needing to "kill" the vm window as vbox fails to shut it down. Resetting to 512Mb results in the vm booting fine. I retested setting to 1024Mb and got the same error as previously. Is there a trick to using more than 512Mb or is that a limit?

I noticed the option to use vhd disk type in 2Gb chunks when creating my vm. Could the vhd disk(s) be used with VirtualPC?


The windows7 update problem I mentioned earlier sorted itself out - after several reboots windows update popped up the updates available notice and the SP1 update was now available again. I can only guess that windows update worked out that SP1 had not been installed properly the first time.


Regards

Pete

ivan

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2016, 11:18:00 pm »
Hi Pete,

An even better idea would be for the developers to include all the necessary external DLLs that they used in a zip file in the release.  That way we know that we have the correct versions for that particular program.  It might also help if the various DLLs had a buildlevel included.

Valery Sedletski

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2016, 12:30:37 am »
2ivan: curl is the CURL exe (http downloader). You need libcurl, not curl. I suspect, curl is not needed in this case. Please try to use the latest package -- the version is encoded in a zip name. Well, we'll probably correct the packages list to not include curl.

I run win7 with 768 MB of RAM set. You can try disabling different visual effects and disable Aqua and set it to use "Classic" theme only. Anyway, we haven't 3D acceleration support, so that is a waste of resources. So, I did like this. WinXP SP3 is optimal to run on OS/2 host, it almost "flies". I set the VM RAM size to be 512 MB. Didn't seen any critical errors. Maybe, you have VAL too little (I have VALIMIT=3072 on my machine with 3500 MB of RAM available and VALIMIT=2500 on a machine with 3000 MB of physical RAM available). Also, I was not able to set more than 1700 MB of RAM to a single VM. The limit of RAM usage by applications is about 2100 MB. If I try to set more, the VM just panics (Guru meditation). This is a result of lack of available address space (remember that OS/2 is a 32-bit OS and Shared memory occupies some space in virtual memory, so, less private memory available, and vice versa).

Yes, .vhd is VirtualPC disks and can be used with VPC.

Doug Bissett

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2016, 03:56:50 am »
Quote
An even better idea would be for the developers to include all the necessary external DLLs that they used in a zip file in the release.  That way we know that we have the correct versions for that particular program.  It might also help if the various DLLs had a buildlevel included.

Most (if not all) of the dlls don't have bldlevel information, so that won't work. Creating in a zip file is also asking for trouble. If you install a program that supplies xyz.dll version 2, then install another package that supplies xyz.dll version 1, you have a problem. There is usually no way to tell which version you are installing. Date, time, size, mean nothing, and if there is no bldlevel information, all you can do is guess. The only way to do it is to use RPM/YUM (preferably with ANPM as a front end), and trust that it will do it properly (most of the time it will). In your case, where you cannot use ANPM (RPM/YUM), your best bet is to have a machine installed with ANPM (RPM/YUM), and extract what you need from that, and package your own ZIP file. You would need to do that, with the latest available code, for every package that you distribute, and update it for every one that you do distribute, carefully tracking what you do so you can keep everything up to date, on every machine.

ANPM (RPM/YUM) is the way to do it (even though it is a terrible way to do it). I would think that your best bet would be to get ANPM (RPM/YUM) included in the contract, but I do realize how stupid some customers can be. Sorry, no simple answers.

Pete

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2016, 04:06:42 am »
Hi All

@Valery

Setting VirtualAddressLimit=3072 resolves the problem with giving my win7 vm 1024Mb which, along with switching to "classic" theme, has improved speed a little.

No, VirtualPC cannot use the VHD disks produced by VirtualBox. The problem is that VirtualPC seems to want to use VHD disks in 2Gb "chunks" but the option to create disks in 2Gb "chunks" is Disabled for VHD disks in Virtualbox .
VirtualBox cannot use the VHD disks produced by VirtualPC - probably for the same reason ie VirtualBox cannot read from VHD disks in 2Gb "chunks". There is also the difference in the virtual hardware to consider.

There is no libcurl package; curl7.dll is supplied in http://rpm.netlabs.org/release/00/zip/curl-7_37_0-2_oc00.zip


@ivan

Totally agree that necessary dll files should be included in the package or, as with recent Seamonkey releases, in a separate support package with documentation specifying the exact support package required.



Regards

Pete


Andi B.

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2016, 12:14:49 pm »
Totally agree that necessary dll files should be included in the package or, as with recent Seamonkey releases, in a separate support package with documentation specifying the exact support package required.
In theory this can work if users are skilled enough to distinguish different version by them self and if they invest the time to check versions off all included dlls with every zip. Practical experience has shown that this does not even work for the most experienced users. Let alone 'normal' users. Doug has explained above in his first sentences why this cant work in real life. Read it and try to understand why it can't work with modern applications which rely on 10+ different libraries. It's proven in practical experience since years. But it seem every single guy want it to learn the hard way by themselves. No problem if someone what to learn it the hard way. But what you are proposing does not and can not work for the majority of users.

Btw. - don't think libpathstrict is the solution for keeping different zipped dlls separated. Libpathstrict is handy in some cases but it has a lot limitations. Think of it as like a hack into the kernel with nasty side effects. No usable for more than a very limited number of applications.

Pete

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2016, 07:59:42 pm »
Hi Andi

The suggestion is that the necessary dll files are either included with the package or the docs state what support package contains the correct files, ideally with a download url.

Of course the problem is different versions of dll files required for different applications.

My earliest and long lasting memory of rpm on linux, circa 1998 - 2002, was rpm updating library files when installing an application and screwing up resulting in lots of applications not working due to the wrong library files being installed. That happened often and always took a while to rectify. As a result I am not a fan of yum/rpm but will give it a try if/when ArcaOS5 arrives. In the meantime I much prefer zips or warpin packages.


Regards

Pete





Valery Sedletski

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2016, 02:21:57 am »
2pete: Seems so. There's a single "curl" package, but no "libcurl".

I am not sure, but maybe, M$ changed .vhd format, since that. Also, as far as I know, splitting .vhd's to 2GB chunks is an optional feature. OS/2 version of VPC splits them for HPFS compatibility only. But this is not required. VBox seems to not understand splitted .vhd's. It needs them in one piece. Also, I see a 3 GB .vhd in my VM images directory. I took it from OS/2 version of VPC, and I used it with VBox, it had understood it well, and resized to 3 GB successfully, IIRC.  Or, I used that 3 GB .vhd with qemu, not VBox -- don't remember.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 02:37:55 am by Valery Sedletski »

Doug Bissett

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2016, 04:20:10 am »
Quote
Of course the problem is different versions of dll files required for different applications.

This statement is theoretically incorrect. The required DLL version is the minimum version required for an application. Later versions should always work (although there are some problems with that, sometimes, but not often).

Quote
My earliest and long lasting memory of rpm on linux, circa 1998 - 2002, was rpm updating library files when installing an application and screwing up resulting in lots of applications not working due to the wrong library files being installed. That happened often and always took a while to rectify. As a result I am not a fan of yum/rpm but will give it a try if/when ArcaOS5 arrives. In the meantime I much prefer zips or warpin packages.

That is usually not a problem with ANPM (RPM/YUM) on OS/2 (but it can happen when something is not packaged correctly - a rare occurrence recently). There is a far greater chance that trying to update manually will cause a lot more problems. You may also need to manage forwarder DLLs. The most obvious example is the LIBC0xx series, but there are others.

Quote
As a result I am not a fan of yum/rpm but will give it a try if/when ArcaOS5 arrives. In the meantime I much prefer zips or warpin packages.

I am not a fan either, but it is a LOT better than spending days trying to figure out what you need to run a program. You will save yourself a lot of guess work, by simply installing ANPM (which will install RPM/YUM, if it is not already installed), and use that to install required packages, and keep things up to date. Some cleanup is required to remove the old stuff, so that it doesn't get used somehow. WarpIn, or ZIP, is okay when somebody packages that stuff in that way, but it just isn't being done in a way that is easy to use, and when it is done it may not track what is installed, properly.

Pete

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2016, 08:40:54 pm »
Hi Doug

Re different versions of dll files required - your comment in brackets is the point I am making.

Glad to read that ANPM with yum/rpm seems to be working well.

The point Ivan and I were both making is that with either a list of required supporting software - full filenames rather than libwhatever and ideally a download url - possibly in a readme file, or, preferably, a package of the required supporting software non-yum/rpm users will not be banging their heads trying to figure out what exactly is required.


Regards

Pete

Doug Bissett

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2016, 09:41:25 pm »
Quote
Re different versions of dll files required - your comment in brackets is the point I am making.

It is pretty safe if you stay away from the experimental repositories.

Quote
The point Ivan and I were both making is that with either a list of required supporting software - full filenames rather than libwhatever and ideally a download url - possibly in a readme file, or, preferably, a package of the required supporting software non-yum/rpm users will not be banging their heads trying to figure out what exactly is required.

The main problem is, that the developers usually have no more idea about what is needed, than you do, and it takes them just as long to figure it out as it takes you. I would prefer that they are on to the next project, rather than wasting time trying to figure out what got used to port something (along with all of the supporting packages) that works perfectly well when the user updates using ANPM (RPM/YUM). I suppose they could simply post all of the packages that they have installed, rather than just the top level packages that they know about, but users really don't need the developer packages. The location of the ZIP files is well known, by now, but I am not convinced that a user knows what should be extracted from them. It is more than just DLLs, and some things need to have symlinks created (not to mention required support packages). You would need to dig into the package files to determine what really needs to be done. If you use ANPM  (RPM/YUM), it is all managed for you, with a LOT less work (even with the odd screwed up package). Ivan has a different problem, but using ANPM (RPM/YUM) is the answer to his problem too. He needs to package the results, for manual installation, rather than using the program on individual systems, but that isn't all that complicated when you know what got updated.

Dave Yeo

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2016, 10:21:35 pm »
2Dave Yeo: Just tried to remove idl20.dll from the LIBPATH -- VM creates and starts successfully without it. So, see no problems here.

@Valery, it's pretty consistent here on the first start with a Linux ISO.
Latest test, move idl20.dll out of the way. Start VIRTUALBOX.EXE. Choose new, set appropriate Kernel or Dist, create the virtual machine. Start it up, when it wants a CD or ISO, choose the ISO. Result, see screen capture and log.
Strangely enough trying again works.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 10:23:06 pm by Dave Yeo »

Valery Sedletski

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2016, 03:01:26 am »
2Dave Yeo: It works just fine for me without idl20.dll. The VM is created and started successfully. I don't understood, what is this Guru Meditation about? What you did, exactly? Did you disabled VT-x first?

Dave Yeo

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2016, 03:15:19 am »
Apologies, it does seem to be caused by VT-x.

Pete

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Re: Vbox5.06 beta
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2016, 02:53:10 pm »
Hi Doug

I doubt that yum/rpm "magically" knows what support packages are required for every application software package it installs which means that a list of some sort exists somewhere that yum/rpm refers to in order to download and install the correct support packages.

Regards

Pete