ArcaOS widescreen video not working in virtualbox

[Doug Bissett]

It is 2019, not 1992 .

But OS/2 is from 1996, not 2019. Arca Noae does have the source for Panorama, and SNAP, but nobody has the time to do much with them. There are far more important things to do, than try to make 4K, or 8K, screens work. You are using VBox, use a screen resolution that is more reasonable, and it will just be another window on your monitors. I haven't tried multiple monitors, in VBox, but that may work too.

I am curious how you got eCS to see more than one processor. I have not succeeded so far. Probably should be its own thread.

Have you ever looked through all of the VBox settings, for each guest? It is there, along with many other settings that can be useful (and a lot that won't do much for you). Depending on what, and how, you did the OS/2 install, you may also need to install the SMP kernel support.

I will mention, that the default VBox settings for OS/2 4.5 are far from ideal for ArcaOS, or eCS. They work fine with the default ArcaOS installer for Virtual Machines, but you can do many things to make ArcaOS work much better. If you do make changes, do not use the default ArcaOS installer for Virtual Machines, or it might not work (depending on what you do, in both VBox, and the guest). Use the highest level installer. A few years ago, I did post instructions for doing a proper setup, but I can't find that now. I will try to create a new set of instructions, when I find some time (probably not soon).

In short: it still does not work and I would not bother.

Thanks for that. From what I have seen, it appears that VBox is using a Hyper Threading model, and Hyper Threading is definitely not OS/2 friendly, even on real hardware. I would assume, that the host can use Hyper Threading, while running VBox, if a user allows it. I always keep it off, because I use ArcaOS on my real hardware too.

[madbrain]

But OS/2 is from 1996, not 2019. Arca Noae does have the source for Panorama, and SNAP, but nobody has the time to do much with them. There are far more important things to do, than try to make 4K, or 8K, screens work. You are using VBox, use a screen resolution that is more reasonable, and it will just be another window on your monitors. I haven't tried multiple monitors, in VBox, but that may work too.

OS/2 is older than that, but since ArcaOS is being made available nowadays, I think it's fair that it should current monitors of the day. I don't know how you get to decide what's more important. This is pretty damn important to me.

Have you ever looked through all of the VBox settings, for each guest? It is there, along with many other settings that can be useful (and a lot that won't do much for you). Depending on what, and how, you did the OS/2 install, you may also need to install the SMP kernel support.

Yes, actually, I have played around with guest and with installers, and ACPI, and never had any luck getting more than 1 CPU to show.

I will mention, that the default VBox settings for OS/2 4.5 are far from ideal for ArcaOS, or eCS. They work fine with the default ArcaOS installer for Virtual Machines, but you can do many things to make ArcaOS work much better.

Any specifics as to which settings you changed that improved results ? One thing I found is that using Intel HD audio for the emulated sound device is much better. AC 97 caused sounds to break down early. Even the startup system sounds are cut off.

Thanks for that. From what I have seen, it appears that VBox is using a Hyper Threading model, and Hyper Threading is definitely not OS/2 friendly, even on real hardware. I would assume, that the host can use Hyper Threading, while running VBox, if a user allows it. I always keep it off, because I use ArcaOS on my real hardware too.

My Win10 host in this case has hyperthreading off. Hyperthreading interferes with real-time audio on my Firewire interfaces. Also, hyperthreading comes with free security vulnerabilities in the CPU. It is really best to turn it off.

[Dave Yeo]

OS/2 is older than that, but since ArcaOS is being made available nowadays, I think it's fair that it should current monitors of the day. I don't know how you get to decide what's more important. This is pretty damn important to me.

ArcaNoae isn't a large company and has to decide how to triage needed development. Most important is basic usage on modern computers so USB type-C is pretty well at the top of the list as more and more computers only have this interface for keyboard etc.
Wireless support and UEFI are also high on the list. Support of some modern graphic boards (probably Intel) is also fairly high on the list and probably a requirement for really high resolution monitors which I guess use HDMI for input.
Not speaking for ArcaNoae but above is based on various statements made.

[Doug Bissett]

OS/2 is older than that, but since ArcaOS is being made available nowadays, I think it's fair that it should current monitors of the day. I don't know how you get to decide what's more important. This is pretty damn important to me.

OS/2 development ceased around 1996. It would be really nice, to support "monitors of the day". In fact, it is amazing how well monitors that are not too old, are supported, considering that ONE guy does most of that, along with USB 3, WiFi, wired NIC drivers (MultiMac), AHCI, ACPI, and a lot of other things. If you are capable of writing, or modifying, video drivers, I am sure that Arca Noae would welcome the help. If not, you can wait for it, with the rest of us. We need USB3, then WiFi, UEFI, GPT disk support, and a dozen other things, before we need higher resolution screens. I hear that USB 3 is getting closer, but it doesn't exist, until it is announced.

Yes, actually, I have played around with guest and with installers, and ACPI, and never had any luck getting more than 1 CPU to show.

Show where? In the VBox settings, or in the guest? If in the guest, does it have the SMP kernel installed? The SMP kernel works fine, in one CPU, and *may* load if you define 2 CPUs, but it still doesn't work very well, if at all, in a VBox with more than 1 CPU defined. The UNI kernel will only run 1 CPU. The setting in VBox should be obvious.

Any specifics as to which settings you changed that improved results ? One thing I found is that using Intel HD audio for the emulated sound device is much better. AC 97 caused sounds to break down early. Even the startup system sounds are cut off.

The best sound device is SB16 (even with win XP as a guest, I use SB 16 - newer versions of windows won't support SB 16). More advanced devices will cause sound break up. That has always been the case in VBox. The startup sound is often cut off, it is best to eliminate that all together.

The most important settings are:

Use SATA with AHCI for disk access, also check the box that says SSD, AFTER you get it working with SATA and AHCI, (The default Virtual Machine installer settings do not support that, use the full ACPI setting). If converting, add the OS2AHCI driver, before deleting the DaniS506 driver, and changing the virtual controller settings. Add the parameters "/n /f" (without the quotes) to the OS2AHCI driver, AFTER you get it working (just like in a real machine).

Use enough memory that it never needs to swap (1536 MB is usually adequate). It cannot be more than about 3.5 GB.

Enable I/O APIC, before you install. This probably needs ACPI.

Set Paravirtualization to Default, and enable VT-x/AMD-v and Enable Nested Paging.

Video has been discussed. I never enable 2D, or 3D, support. I doubt if either one actually does anything in OS/2. There are some new settings for Graphics Controller. I haven't tried them, yet.

Audio: as mentioned above, use SB 16, and the PNP driver.

USB: select USB 2.0, until we have a USB 3 driver.

Shared folders has been enabled (in the guest) recently, in two ways. Start without that, to prevent confusion. So far, I haven't got around to trying either one seriously, and I have heard comments that neither one actually works 100%.

[madbrain]

OS/2 is older than that, but since ArcaOS is being made available nowadays, I think it's fair that it should current monitors of the day. I don't know how you get to decide what's more important. This is pretty damn important to me.

OS/2 development ceased around 1996. It would be really nice, to support "monitors of the day". In fact, it is amazing how well monitors that are not too old, are supported, considering that ONE guy does most of that, along with USB 3, WiFi, wired NIC drivers (MultiMac), AHCI, ACPI, and a lot of other things. If you are capable of writing, or modifying, video drivers, I am sure that Arca Noae would welcome the help. If not, you can wait for it, with the rest of us. We need USB3, then WiFi, UEFI, GPT disk support, and a dozen other things, before we need higher resolution screens. I hear that USB 3 is getting closer, but it doesn't exist, until it is announced.

I have never written device drivers myself, I have been more on the application side for most of my career as a developer. My current job involves writing firmware, though, but this is completely bare metal stuff from scratch, without any OS or drivers in the picture. It keeps me very busy. If I was retired, I might play around with some of this OS/2 stuff.

Yes, the things you mention would be nice. I certainly would like to see nVidia video drivers, support for 10 gig ethernet NICs, and USB 3 . Agree about GPT. Don't really care for Wifi. And you can always get around that with a Wifi bridge and wired NIC,.
As long as there is CSM in BIOSes, I'm not sure if UEFI is so important.

Show where? In the VBox settings, or in the guest ?

Both.

If in the guest, does it have the SMP kernel installed? The SMP kernel works fine, in one CPU, and *may* load if you define 2 CPUs, but it still doesn't work very well, if at all, in a VBox with more than 1 CPU defined. The UNI kernel will only run 1 CPU. The setting in VBox should be obvious.

I think my current VMs for both ECS of ArcaOS have the UNI kernel. I'm not sure how to switch to the SMP.
I got the SMP to work on bare metal on an old AMD FX-8350 8 core chip, but not in a VM.

The best sound device is SB16 (even with win XP as a guest, I use SB 16 - newer versions of windows won't support SB 16). More advanced devices will cause sound break up. That has always been the case in VBox. The startup sound is often cut off, it is best to eliminate that all together.

Well, I used to write audio software (DMP/DSMI) so I'm pretty sensitive to this stuff. I have recently restored it from backup. had mixed results with the ICH97  in Vbox. The Intel HD in Vbox is working great. Haven't tried SB16. But back in the days, the native SB16 driver that came with OS/2 and originally written by Creative Labs had lots of bugs. Maybe SB16 in Vbox with a different driver in the guest works better, I haven't tried that yet.

The most important settings are:

Use SATA with AHCI for disk access, also check the box that says SSD, AFTER you get it working with SATA and AHCI, (The default Virtual Machine installer settings do not support that, use the full ACPI setting). If converting, add the OS2AHCI driver, before deleting the DaniS506 driver, and changing the virtual controller settings. Add the parameters "/n /f" (without the quotes) to the OS2AHCI driver, AFTER you get it working (just like in a real machine).

I hadn't noticed the SSD checkbox in the VM settings. Does that actually change anything in OS/2 (like, say, TRIM support) ?

Use enough memory that it never needs to swap (1536 MB is usually adequate). It cannot be more than about 3.5 GB.

I think MEMMAN=NOSWAP will ensure it never swaps. And enough VM RAM for the guest settings, of course

Enable I/O APIC, before you install. This probably needs ACPI.

I have ACPI already. But I think the I/O APIC wasn't set during my installs, so I need to a new VM with new install.

Set Paravirtualization to Default, and enable VT-x/AMD-v and Enable Nested Paging.

Have those already.

Video has been discussed. I never enable 2D, or 3D, support. I doubt if either one actually does anything in OS/2. There are some new settings for Graphics Controller. I haven't tried them, yet.

No, I don't think the 2D / 3D support do anything.

Interesting about the new graphics options in VBox 6.0 . Might have to play with that.

USB: select USB 2.0, until we have a USB 3 driver.

Thanks.

Shared folders has been enabled (in the guest) recently, in two ways. Start without that, to prevent confusion. So far, I haven't got around to trying either one seriously, and I have heard comments that neither one actually works 100%.

I tried it, and had mixed results. The shared folder didn't work in the WPS GUI at all (drives object). However, it seemed to work in most file dialogs in PM programs.
In command shells, I had great success. I was able to map a network share from my local SSD array, and HDD array on my NAS, and got much better throughput vs accessing them via Arcamapper using SMB.
We are talking about 5 Gbps vs 400 Mbps - 12.5x faster. Massive difference. Of course, it only matters if the drives you share are fast enough, but with the arrays and 10 gbps networking in the host, it was rather amazed that the old OS/2 code could manage that throughput.

[Doug Bissett]

Don't really care for Wifi. And you can always get around that with a Wifi bridge and wired NIC,.

A WiFi bridge works, as long as there is a wired NIC to attach it to. apparently, newer computers don't have anything except WiFi any more (especially laptops). They don't have CD/DVD drives, or anything but USB 3, either.

As long as there is CSM in BIOSes, I'm not sure if UEFI is so important.

Apparently, that is becoming less common too. Without some sort of BIOS support, OS/2, in it's current form, has no hope of running on new hardware. UEFI support is a much more important project, than supporting high res monitors.

Both.

Well, if you don't enable more than one processor in VBox, you will never see it in the guest. In VBox settings, for the guest, go to System-> Processor. It is the first line.

I think my current VMs for both ECS of ArcaOS have the UNI kernel. I'm not sure how to switch to the SMP.

Go to the file: C:\OS2\BOOT\OS2NOREV.$$$ and change the file name to something else. Now reboot, and watch when boot starts. It will tell you which kernel you are using. If you need to change it, don't use the "official" OS/2 way, do it manually (there is a comment in the  ArcaOS README under "Selective Install cautions"). In C:\OS2\INSTALL there are three directories (SMP, UNI, and W4). SMP contains the parts for the SMP kernel. replace the files of the same name , wherever they are in the boot drive. I expect that the SMP files are already installed, but perhaps not, if you used the default Virtual Machine Install.

I got the SMP to work on bare metal on an old AMD FX-8350 8 core chip, but not in a VM.

VBox is not friendly to OS/2 SMP. As I mentioned before, it seem that they use an implementation that mimics Hyper Threading, and that conflicts with the OS/2 threading model. The results are not good. The SMP kernel works fine, if you define a single processor in VBox.

I hadn't noticed the SSD checkbox in the VM settings. Does that actually change anything in OS/2 (like, say, TRIM support) ?

No. Trim support was needed, when SSD first appeared, Modern SSDs don't need that (and in VBox, it isn't a real SSD anyway). What it seems to do, in VBox, is eliminate the programmed delay, that simulates seek time. As long as you are using the host disk cache, the guest doesn't know the difference.

I think MEMMAN=NOSWAP will ensure it never swaps

True, but it will also die, if it runs out of memory. I suggest that you don't use that, and let the swap code look after it.

I have ACPI already. But I think the I/O APIC wasn't set during my installs, so I need to a new VM with new install.

I would just change the setting, and see if it works. You can always change it back if there is trouble.

We are talking about 5 Gbps vs 400 Mbps - 12.5x faster. Massive difference. Of course, it only matters if the drives you share are fast enough, but with the arrays and 10 gbps networking in the host, it was rather amazed that the old OS/2 code could manage that throughput.

As I said, both of those shared folder things are new, and both are incomplete, so far. Since it is actually transferring data directly, it should be faster.

OS/2 is still better than win 10, in some ways. If they can ever catch up to some of the new stuff, it would probably run circles around win 10, even as a 32 bit OS. Unfortunately, windows keeps on changing the rules, and OS/2 just doesn't have the manpower to keep up. It would help, if they had the OS/2 source code, but that is either locked away in one of IBM's dungeons, or, as some reports state "they have lost it". Priorities must be established, which means that some things, like high res video, get left behind.

[Andi B.]

Don't really care for Wifi. And you can always get around that with a Wifi bridge and wired NIC,.

A WiFi bridge works, as long as there is a wired NIC to attach it to. apparently, newer computers don't have anything except WiFi any more (especially laptops). They don't have CD/DVD drives, or anything but USB 3, either.

As long as there is CSM in BIOSes, I'm not sure if UEFI is so important.

Apparently, that is becoming less common too. Without some sort of BIOS support, OS/2, in it's current form, has no hope of running on new hardware. UEFI support is a much more important project, than supporting high res monitors.

As usual it depends on POV.

Doug I know you're a notebook guy. But we desktop users see these two points contrary. Wonder how the main AN customers sees this. I got the impression their company customers (which mainly pay their bills) are running dekstop systems. But maybe you've a better insight.

[Doug Bissett]

Doug I know you're a notebook guy. But we desktop users see these two points contrary.

I have more desktops, than I have notebooks. This is not something unique to notebooks, desktops also have the same problems. There is no "contrary", everybody will have the same problems, and Arca Noae has put the highest priority on fixing what they can fix, in the order that they need to keep as many customers as possible happy. Unfortunately, they just don't have enough people to do all of it, immediately, and some of it takes longer than other things.

We wait, and hope. Meanwhile, it is prudent for OS/2 users to buy carefully. Manufacturers are going to create the cheapest hardware possible, for windows, simply because they can make more profit by doing that. Windows has actually changed their focus from computers to cell phones, which should give you some idea of where the computer business is headed.

[Andi B.]

...This is not something unique to notebooks, desktops also have the same problems.

I wasn't clear enough. I usually mean self build desktop systems. There are still a lot of good compatible boards available. And compatible industrial boards will be available even a few years from now I'm sure. Of course you have to buy proper stuff. Often not the cheapest crappiest stuff the next supermarket wants to sell you. But you've a chance to get something that works in contrary to notebooks where you don't have these option anymore.

And wifi is not needed for desktop systems. Except for the few of us who do develop wlan stuff on a desktop system . Otherwise no wifi needed (and often not wanted) with desktop systems.

Even USB2 is available for desktops easily. Either still on the mobo or via PCI card.

So for desktop users like me (and Julien) high resolution graphic (and/or multi-head) do have much higher priority. Of course different people - different needs. We'll see how AN sets priorities.

[Dave Yeo]

And wifi is not needed for desktop systems. Except for the few of us who do develop wlan stuff on a desktop system . Otherwise no wifi needed (and often not wanted) with desktop systems.

Unluckily, even for desktop systems, WiFi is becoming more important. My Internet hub thingy is really designed for only WiFi access. It has one cable connection that it supports badly but works good enough for my OS/2 box. No port forwarding and such on the wired connection, only on the WiFi connections.
It's crazy, especially in highly populated areas, but it seems how residential internet is going. Generally this won't be a problem for businesses but is a consideration.

[Doug Bissett]

Even USB2 is available for desktops easily. Either still on the mobo or via PCI card.

Most newer motherboards don't have a PCI slot any more. I have never seen a PCIe USB 2 adapter. Is such a thing available?

Of course, if you choose your hardware, carefully, you can still find motherboards with PCI slots, and USB 2. If you buy one of the new (even high end) machines, off the shelf, it will likely have only USB 3, no CD/DVD drive (possibly no place to put/connect one), only a couple of PCIe slots, no CSM support, and a GPT formatted disk. Even if the box comes with USB 2 connectors, there is a very good chance that they are connected to a USB 3 controller internally.

Eventually, we will run out of usable motherboards, unless you buy used (probably the best option anyway), or somebody gets these devices supported.

Generally this won't be a problem for businesses but is a consideration.

It will be a problem for business. Perhaps not on a managed site, but lots of business people use notebooks off site, and they get to use whatever is available.

[Andreas Schnellbacher]

Most newer motherboards don't have a PCI slot any more.

There are a few/many, but PCI seems to die. I've searched for you, since I'm not familiar with Intel boards:

• Intel Socket 1151
  
• Intel Socket 1151 v2
• Intel Socket 2066 (none)

I have never seen a PCIe USB 2 adapter. Is such a thing available?

geizhals.at lists 8 pages.

[madbrain]

geizhals.at lists 8 pages.

Those appear to be USB 3 cards, not USB 2.0 .

[madbrain]

no CD/DVD drive (possibly no place to put/connect one)

As long as some form of USB is supported, this should be OK. And USB is still required for keyboard and mouse, as most motherboards lack PS/2 ports, or have only a single PS/2.

no CSM support

I have not heard of motherboards without CSM yet.

and a GPT formatted disk

Which is purely a software issue, not hardware.

Even if the box comes with USB 2 connectors, there is a very good chance that they are connected to a USB 3 controller internally.

Possibly, but it would be silly to wire them that way. Most motherboards have a limited set of USB 3.0/3.1 headers, but plenty of 2.0 headers.

[madbrain]

apparently, newer computers don't have anything except WiFi any more (especially laptops).

Have yet to see a laptop without a wired ethernet port on it. But then again, I have 5 desktops, all custom built. I hate laptops of any kind.
Even such a stupid computer still likely features a USB port, to which a supported wired USB ethernet NIC could be attached.

UEFI support is a much more important project, than supporting high res monitors.

I really disagree there. I think there is no hope for a small community of closed source developers to catch up to all the new hardware out there. Making it work great in a VM is probably better. Seems most of the pieces are there, but not all together.

For example, reportedly, SCSI and SMP work in VMWare. Most other features work in Virtualbox. If you can just produce a few drivers/guest extensios that just work fine with the virtual machine emulators, it will be a far better use of limited developer resources, IMO, than trying to catch up to all the bare metal advancements.

Go to the file: C:\OS2\BOOT\OS2NOREV.$$$ and change the file name to something else. Now reboot, and watch when boot starts. It will tell you which kernel you are using. If you need to change it, don't use the "official" OS/2 way, do it manually (there is a comment in the  ArcaOS README under "Selective Install cautions"). In C:\OS2\INSTALL there are three directories (SMP, UNI, and W4). SMP contains the parts for the SMP kernel. replace the files of the same name , wherever they are in the boot drive. I expect that the SMP files are already installed, but perhaps not, if you used the default Virtual Machine Install.

As I recall, there is more than just the kernel that needs to be swapped. DOSCALL1.DLL too. I ran SMP on bare metal on Athlon MP for many years, with AMD Athlon MP and the old OS2APIC.PSD .

VBox is not friendly to OS/2 SMP. As I mentioned before, it seem that they use an implementation that mimics Hyper Threading, and that conflicts with the OS/2 threading model. The results are not good. The SMP kernel works fine, if you define a single processor in VBox.

Seems I got it to work somewhat finally, with 2 processors. 4 too, but it misbehaves (all CPUs are near full usage when idle in MPCPUPON).

As I said, both of those shared folder things are new, and both are incomplete, so far. Since it is actually transferring data directly, it should be faster.

Yes, makes sense.

OS/2 is still better than win 10, in some ways.

I have a hard time imagining what those could be.

It would help, if they had the OS/2 source code, but that is either locked away in one of IBM's dungeons, or, as some reports state "they have lost it". Priorities must be established, which means that some things, like high res video, get left behind.

Very sad. I thought the OS/2 source code had been leaked in the past, and some IBM employees got fired for it. Not that I'm condoning using that, but if it is really lost, and IBM will agree to give a license, maybe it can be resurrected.