PMMail 3.22 and SMTP authentication...can it do that?

[Dariusz Piatkowski]

I have an absolutely ancient version of PMMail here, lol, 2.00.1500, but it's been working fine for years now and with all my written SPAM and email filters I just never felt like I needed to upgrade.

Well....that time has apparently come. I just moved from a DSL to Fibre ISP provider. I want to preserve access to my DSL email account (which the DSL provider is happy to do for me) but now that I am no longer on their domain I need an email client that does SMTP authentication. My current version does NOT. It simply accepts the SMTP server name and port number, but nothing beyond that. It does have the option to do POP, but my email provider does not.

Sooo....that implies I need to find a new email client. I would prefer to stay with PMMail, although the current license deal seems a tad strange...sorry, VOICE membership required first? Why do I need to do this given that I am already paying (or have paid) other license costs (either specific applications, or stuff like AN, etc, etc...but that's a different conversation altogether).

The other option I have is to try the Mozilla/Seamonkey/Thunderbird thing.

Back to the PMMail question then: can someone confirm that the outbound SMTP email option provides authentication?

Thanks!

[Neil Waldhauer]

I'm actually running an alpha of 3.23, but nothing about SMTP has changed since 3.22.

PMMail/2 allows connection to SMTP server using username and password. It also allows ESMTP options AUTH DIGEST-MD5 and AUTH CRAM-MD5.

For those who use a non-secure SMTP server, that works, too.

[Doug Bissett]

I just never felt like I needed to upgrade.

You just don't know what you are missing...

Sooo....that implies I need to find a new email client. I would prefer to stay with PMMail, although the current license deal seems a tad strange...sorry, VOICE membership required first? Why do I need to do this given that I am already paying (or have paid) other license costs (either specific applications, or stuff like AN, etc, etc...but that's a different conversation altogether).

Paid? For what? You paid for version 2.x, which was owned by somebody else. VOICE bought the rights, so they have the right to charge a fee for their work on version 3.x. PMMail is actually a bonus for being a member of VOICE, nothing more. The proceeds are used to support OS/2, in many ways, and VOICE is a non profit organization that very much deserves support. BTW, ALL work done to PMMail is done by volunteers.

 Please see http://pmmail.os2voice.org/index.php?title=PMMail_for_OS/2 for the details.

[guzzi]

Paid? For what? You paid for version 2.x, which was owned by somebody else. VOICE bought the rights, so they have the right to charge a fee for their work on version 3.x. PMMail is actually a bonus for being a member of VOICE, nothing more. The proceeds are used to support OS/2, in many ways, and VOICE is a non profit organization that very much deserves support. BTW, ALL work done to PMMail is done by volunteers.

 Please see http://pmmail.os2voice.org/index.php?title=PMMail_for_OS/2 for the details.

To clarify this, since VOICE is now a Dutch based 'stichting', it no longer has members, therefore PMMail is of course no longer exclusive for members. From the VOICE bylaws: "A PMMail/2 licence is free for those who have been at least two consecutive years a VOICE sponsor with one standard sponsor unit per year and for board members. Others can obtain a PMMail/2 licence by donating two standard sponsor units to VOICE."

As Doug mentioned, the income from sales of sponsorunits is mostly used for funding software development, some funds go to sponsoring Warpstock Europe. The board does NOT get any renumeration. In previous years, some board members got free admission to Warpstock, next year this will not be the case. We care about the platform and the users and dedicate all of the income of VOICE to promotion and support. The board pays for stamps when having to send snail mail out of their own pockets).

[Dariusz Piatkowski]

Hey Doug!

...Paid? For what? You paid for version 2.x, which was owned by somebody else. VOICE bought the rights, so they have the right to charge a fee for their work on version 3.x. PMMail is actually a bonus for being a member of VOICE, nothing more...

Oh, I'm afraid you missunderstood what I wrote.

I do not have a problem paying for a product...no sir, happy to pay for my 3.x PMMail upgrade. What I do not understand is this requirement to purchase a VOICE membership and then pay once again for the product. If I have no desire to be a VOICE member then why am I being forced to pay for it?

It really is THAT simple...nothing more to it...let me pay for the product I purchase, that's all I'm asking.

[Doug Bissett]

[quoteI do not have a problem paying for a product...no sir, happy to pay for my 3.x PMMail upgrade. What I do not understand is this requirement to purchase a VOICE membership and then pay once again for the product. If I have no desire to be a VOICE member then why am I being forced to pay for it?][/quote]

That whole procedure was changed. You will need to read the new instructions (which I, admit to not doing).

The reason why it was done like that, was that those who were members when VOICE bought the rights were the ones that paid for those rights, so they were grandfathered into getting PMMail. Those who joined after the purchase were charged for the program. Since VOICE tries to keep the costs down, they decided to just have the user pay twice for a membership, rather than having to pay the banks (or, whoever) for a whole new method to collect money for PMMail. They already had to pay to collect memberships. Now that the whole operation has moved to the Netherlands, the rules have changed, and so has qualifying for PMMail, but you still need to be a sponsor of VOICE. PMMail is, after all, a bonus for supporting VOICE (which you really do want to support, since they support OS/2).

It really is THAT simple...nothing more to it...let me pay for the product I purchase, that's all I'm asking.

Well, no it isn't that simple. When VOICE bought the rights to PMMail, the board decided that it would be a bonus for those who support VOICE. After all, they own it, so they can say how they will use it, and if you want PMMail, you become a supporter of VOICE (at least for one year). The PMMail license doesn't end, if you decide not to support VOICE, but it does make it that much harder for VOICE to support OS/2.

[Rich Walsh]

Back to the topic at hand...

I'm running PMMail v1.96a, so mine is even older than yours - and of course, it doesn't do authenticated SMTP either. Instead, I use Bob Eager's SMTP package (http://www.tavi.co.uk/os2pages/mail.html) which provides an SMTP server and client. Basically, you have PMMail send mail to your local server which just puts it into a folder on your system. You then run the client program which fetches the email from that folder and does an authenticated send to your ISP's SMTP server. It's a bit roundabout but it works for me - plus it gives me a chance to reconsider whether I really want to send it out at all.

However, why bother? If your new ISP will accept mail that has a From address from a different domain, why not use them? Astonishingly few people check headers (or even know they exist), so virtually no one will notice that the sending domain doesn't match the From address.

[xynixme]

</silence>Of course the whole VOICE-construction is illegal, even in the country of the foundation. Often old upgrade rights and a changed owner aren't that relevant, because it's easy to introduce a new main version or a new product name.

This type of koppelverkoop, tying, having to buy V because you want P, will be illegal in Netherland too. V's market share w.r.t. selling P is exactly 100%. That'll exceed the legal limit of 50%. P is not related to V. You cannot avoid having to buy V if you want P. There is no objective justification, and so on. What VOICE is doing is illegal, no matter what their goals are.<silence>

[guzzi]

</silence>Of course the whole VOICE-construction is illegal, even in the country of the foundation. Often old upgrade rights and a changed owner aren't that relevant, because it's easy to introduce a new main version or a new product name.

This type of koppelverkoop, tying, having to buy V because you want P, will be illegal in Netherland too. V's market share w.r.t. selling P is exactly 100%. That'll exceed the legal limit of 50%. P is not related to V. You cannot avoid having to buy V if you want P. There is no objective justification, and so on. What VOICE is doing is illegal, no matter what their goals are.<silence>

You are obvously not a lawyer. Koppelverkoop is not illegal. It is only not allowed if certain conditions are met. Furthermore, in order for something to be koppelverkoop, two products must be sold. VOICE does not sell PMMail. We are giving it for free to anyone who either sponsors VOICE for two consecutive years, or for those who sponsor with two standard sponsorunits. Sponsoring VOICE is not buying a product, so, in fact, no products at all are being sold.

[Roderick Klein]

Paid? For what? You paid for version 2.x, which was owned by somebody else. VOICE bought the rights, so they have the right to charge a fee for their work on version 3.x. PMMail is actually a bonus for being a member of VOICE, nothing more. The proceeds are used to support OS/2, in many ways, and VOICE is a non profit organization that very much deserves support. BTW, ALL work done to PMMail is done by volunteers.

 Please see http://pmmail.os2voice.org/index.php?title=PMMail_for_OS/2 for the details.

To clarify this, since VOICE is now a Dutch based 'stichting', it no longer has members, therefore PMMail is of course no longer exclusive for members. From the VOICE bylaws: "A PMMail/2 licence is free for those who have been at least two consecutive years a VOICE sponsor with one standard sponsor unit per year and for board members. Others can obtain a PMMail/2 licence by donating two standard sponsor units to VOICE."

As Doug mentioned, the income from sales of sponsorunits is mostly used for funding software development, some funds go to sponsoring Warpstock Europe. The board does NOT get any renumeration. In previous years, some board members got free admission to Warpstock, next year this will not be the case. We care about the platform and the users and dedicate all of the income of VOICE to promotion and support. The board pays for stamps when having to send snail mail out of their own pockets).

For anybody curious you can see the financial reports here:
http://www.os2voice.org/reports.html
The only overhead cost VOICE has is the cost of the bank account.  The board pays for all expenses and that is right any phone calls I make for OS/2 VOICE or letters I send I pay out of my own pocket.

Roderick Klein
President OS/2 VOICE

[Roderick Klein]

Hey Doug!

...Paid? For what? You paid for version 2.x, which was owned by somebody else. VOICE bought the rights, so they have the right to charge a fee for their work on version 3.x. PMMail is actually a bonus for being a member of VOICE, nothing more...

Oh, I'm afraid you missunderstood what I wrote.

I do not have a problem paying for a product...no sir, happy to pay for my 3.x PMMail upgrade. What I do not understand is this requirement to purchase a VOICE membership and then pay once again for the product. If I have no desire to be a VOICE member then why am I being forced to pay for it?

It really is THAT simple...nothing more to it...let me pay for the product I purchase, that's all I'm asking.

I also think the above was done for fiscal/legal reasons. If we would sell PMMAIL as product  that might work out differently for the Dutch IRS.  Then again I discussed this with a public notary the product we sell does not really compete with anybody in the market space. Nobody offers a commercial mail client for OS/2...

Best regards,

Roderick Klein
President OS/2 VOICE

[guzzi]

I really don't understand the issue. If one wants to obtain PMMail, sponsor 50 dollars to VOICE. Regard it as buying, and the 50 as the price. Simple as that. You do not become a member, because a Dutch 'stichting' does not have members, you don't have any obligations. Your money will be well spent, it will all flow back into software development, Warpstock and promotional activities (the latter usually don't cost any money). As Roderick and I said, there is -no- overhead, all received funds go the goals set in the VOICE statutes. Not 50%, not 70%, not 99%, the full 100%. You may not agree with which software VOICE sponsors, but hey, if you buy a program from a software vendor your money will only benefit this vendor, not the community as a whole. PMMail is an incentive to sponsor VOICE, by sponsoring VOICE one sponsors the viability of the platform. Remember, without VOICE there would likely not have been a fairly current Firefox, Java, QT4 etc.

[Dariusz Piatkowski]

Guys!

Wow...all of a sudden it got pretty hot in here...hmm...

Look, it is fairly difficult to arrive at the same conclusions based on all what has been stated in this thread by simply looking at the PMMail Voice website instead (http://pmmail.os2voice.org/index.php?title=PMMail_for_OS/2). So to all of you who provided the behind-the-scenes background, thank you, I get it and while I still wish that we simply had a software product license to purchase instead, I understand why it is being done that particular way today.

I contribute to products and have in the past made sponsorship donations...so I'm no stranger to this and quite frankly am happy to do so. Case in point, $50 USD donation was made to VOICE today, I am supposed to be getting my PMMail 3.22 license key tomorrow...and to make that upgrade from 2.00.1500 to 3.22 a reality I will start a separate thread in this group and seek your advice regarding the specifics.

[xynixme]

PMMail is an incentive to sponsor VOICE

</silence>No matter which stories, excuses and arguments people and VOICE are trying to use to justify a weird construction, this type of tying is illegal according to their Dutch competition laws (Mededingingswet). Buy VOICE's product once, and VOICE has the freedom to use its turnover to sponsor itself. It would be as simple as that, without offending potential users by making them support any irrelevant organization with illegal sales constructions.

And, of course, it's bogus that a Dutch foundation has no members (leden). If you are a member of a community which was forced to support VOICE, then - in Dutch - you are a member of VOICE. You'll never be invited for a member's meeting, but e.g. VOICE can say that you are a member of VOICE. Strictly: a member of a group. If you have a commercial AN Software Subscription, then in Dutch you're a member of AN.

In a nutshell: just sell the product as a stand-alone product, perhaps allow others to become a reseller too, and use the proceeds to sponsor the owner of the product. That's legal, normal, not as weird as having to support VOICE directly, and quite easy...<silence>

[guzzi]

PMMail is an incentive to sponsor VOICE

</silence>No matter which stories, excuses and arguments people and VOICE are trying to use to justify a weird construction, this type of tying is illegal according to their Dutch competition laws (Mededingingswet). Buy VOICE's product once, and VOICE has the freedom to use its turnover to sponsor itself. It would be as simple as that, without offending potential users by making them support any irrelevant organization with illegal sales constructions.

And, of course, it's bogus that a Dutch foundation has no members (leden). If you are a member of a community which was forced to support VOICE, then - in Dutch - you are a member of VOICE. You'll never be invited for a member's meeting, but e.g. VOICE can say that you are a member of VOICE. Strictly: a member of a group. If you have a commercial AN Software Subscription, then in Dutch you're a member of AN.

In a nutshell: just sell the product as a stand-alone product, perhaps allow others to become a reseller too, and use the proceeds to sponsor the owner of the product. That's legal, normal, not as weird as having to support VOICE directly, and quite easy...<silence>
[/quote]

Falsely accusing a legal entity of illegal activities constitutes slander. Your comments here are crossing the line of common decency.