Author Topic: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!  (Read 5038 times)

Martin Iturbide

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ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« on: November 23, 2017, 06:24:05 pm »
Hi

ArcaOS was released like 6 months ago (May 15, 2017) and I think it will be a good time to have some discussion about what YOU think about ArcaOS.  I had seen people jumping on other forum threads giving their opinion on what should be a priority and what not. I think it will be better to use this thread to do that.

From my personal point of view I have my wishlist based on my needs and hopes which I complete understand differs from other opinions.

Short Term - Drivers
People still scream for drivers and there are different needs, but my personal needs is in this order:
- Wifi (Listed as Short Term Projects on AN Roadmap)
- USB 3.0 - In my case I need it to install ArcaOS on devices that does not have USB 2.0 ports, CDs or Legacy compatibility for USB. (Listed as Long Term Projects on AN Roadmap)
- GTP : To make it easy to install ArcaOS on HDD if you want dual boot.  (Listed as Long Term Projects on AN Roadmap)
- UEFI : It is where the market is going. There are some Intel PCs that does not have Legacy mode.
- Support for accessing unpartitioned/non-LVM USB sticks (large floppy) greater than 2GB. To make life easier also. (Listed as Long Term Projects on AN Roadmap)

Mid Term - Apps
ArcaOS does not have a roadmap of which software frameworks should be ported to have Apps under the platform. The easy way is to say it is "just and OS" and I don't care what it is running on it, but if you don't have apps, why use the OS on the first place?
It is obvious that they primary goal of ArcaOS was to run OS/2 applications made with OS/2's API (CPI, PM, SOM, WPS, REXX, etc) and I think that goal is accomplished with ArcaOS 5.0. Now what about the present? If someone wants to develop something for ArcaOS what it should use?
1) IBM OS/2 Toolkit was be repackaged and included on RPM, that was good. But maybe it needs more like a facelift to include more samples, and updated documentation on how to compile the samples today on 2017, and maybe even rebrand it with a new name and version to match ArcaOS.
2) ArcaOS Open Toolkit. I think it is worthy to promote that ArcaOS has open source libraries and tool that can be used to also create software under the platform. This should also be seen as an strategic part of the OS that allows developers to create and port software.  (Even if there are people that counts the microseconds comparing a PM app vs. a Qt App, those can keep using the classic OS/2 API)
3) Qt 5 is important to have it as part of the "open toolkit". Let's hope that can happen with Bitwise.
4) More frameworks. I think that there is missing one or two more modern frameworks on the platform, but this is something I didn't set my mind on. I feel like there are very interesting things on GTK and the Node.js frameworks.

Long Term
Maybe six months it is still not enough time to get a long term strategy. This is the hard spot and where everybody will reply to me "Don't fix what it is not broken".

Does the OS/2 platform should have a long term strategy? Or the strategy should be "Will the last person leaving, please turn out the lights"

When you buy ArcaOS you need to pay the "IBM tax" (the cost of the OS/2 license that IBM negotiated with Arca Noae), that is in part what makes ArcaOS expensive (Mainframe guys, please don't compare prices here). Also the soul of OS/2, which I think are CPI, PM, SOM and WPS,  are close source without any possibility to be enhanced, fixed or open sourced.

Maybe like Lynn H. Maxson said on some Warpstock, we need to progressively open source parts of OS/2. I had been told that  is almost sure that if someone wants to clone PM or SOM, the first version will suck very bad. They tell it to me like if there is no way to improve software over time or like version 1.0 has to be 100% bug free, which is not how the software development cycle works. Since this is a long term strategy I think it will be good to nurture the open source replacement from crappy to something that can work over time, instead of thinking it as a Big bang miss or hit thing.

Maybe:
1) Evolving XWorkplace to try to reduce the dependency on WPS classes until it became a fully parallel desktop workplace object classes running on SOM. (little by little)
2) Hacking PM and CPI to replace and improve some of the API functions (little by little).
3) Revolving SOM by trying to get the leftovers of Netlabs SOM and SOMfree to see if some useful SOM replacement can be generated from it. (little by little)

Why do I still insist on Open Source? Because we already had been dumped three times, one by IBM, second by Serenity Systems and the third by Mensys/XEU. Open source is just a way to reduce the risk in case of a fourth dump and eventually (with a lot of hard work) it will release us from the IBM tax.

So, let's have fun, post your wishlist.

Regards
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 10:36:11 pm by Martin Iturbide »
Martin Iturbide
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Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2017, 07:15:53 pm »
My (Long gone) "wishes" are almost like yours, slightly different and in this order:

- Sound
- WLAN
- USB 3.0

But: as it turns out ArcaOS is getting more and more closed source, so - even if these Drivers will be available those may be only licensed for ArcaOS I fear - may be not.

It started with the new kernels, ACPI followed (at least when it stops to work with "unsupported" kernel in SMP mode) and now it is going on with this LAN Update.

As it is advertised: "It is a good time to replace OS/2-eCS with ArcaOS" it is for me more like: "It is a good time to leave."

Unfortunately I can not get this LAN Compnent Update as well, as the 6 months of ArcaOS Subsrciptions just shortly dissappeard before these LAN Update was released. My other SSS expires at 31.12.2017 and seems not to have this LAN Update included. Even if I could - it would not be licensed for OS/2.

Regarding USB 3.0 I remember David A. talking about the driver at Warpstock Europe in 2016 saying it was really Close at Hand.

As other Things turned out to be more important for ARCAOS - what is OK - it showed that my personal Needs are not on the list. So, yes, I can not expect or demand to have them.

Personal I will wait untill the next release after that 5.02, the possible ArcaOS 5.1 German Edition, to invest Money into OS/2, regardless it it is for SSS or funding. Untill then I will invest in something else  ;)

334 -> last and end  :)



 
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 07:31:03 pm by Sigurd Fastenrath »

Martin Iturbide

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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2017, 10:15:11 pm »
Hi Sigurd.

I also remember hearing that USB 3.0 was almost ready.

I'm also experiencing some frustration with the time frame of the driver releases. I was expecting to see ArcaOS released (which I don't doubt it was a very hard work) and once that milestone was completed I was hoping that Arca's resources can be focused on releasing new drivers faster since they finished the hard work of putting the whole "installation package" together.

But it has only been 6 months, maybe I have the millennial disease of having things faster. I can not know for sure what is happening inside Arca Noae and with how many full time developers they are operating. Maybe they are trying to consolidate their corporate customers first to ensure their cash flow?

Once with Mensys I started to feel like it only cared about the corporate customers and the community (individuals) using the platform were only the extra change at the end of the month. But with Arca, I had talked to Lewis (Arca Noae) on the past and I also see his commitment with Warpstock (which is mostly an end-user based conference), so I still trust he wants an OS that can be used by both parties (Commercial and individual). So I still want to believe he is trying to sort all the hell of managing a company (money, taxes, personal, etc) and supporting an operating system. 

I think we need to keep pushing forward because there is no magic solution.

Regards

« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 10:24:04 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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ivan

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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2017, 11:46:11 pm »
USB 3.0 and 3.1 are needed.

Also the OS2AHCI.ADD needs work to allow it to a) work with third party chipsets (asmedia, AMD A320 etc. Ryzen support chips for example).

There is still a kernel fault when SMARTAHCI is run (if the AHCI.ADD from eCS 2 works with smartahci why doesn't the official one?).

Doug Bissett

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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2017, 05:26:26 am »
First, I will state that I do NOT have any interest in ArcaOS, other than as a satisfied customer. I do some software testing for them, on a totally voluntary basis. Most of what follows is only my view of what is going on, and I do not have any sources, other than what I need to know to be able to test software.

Quote
But: as it turns out ArcaOS is getting more and more closed source, so - even if these Drivers will be available those may be only licensed for ArcaOS I fear - may be not.

Actually, that isn't entirely true. Arca Noae is adding value (sometimes by removing unproven, unstable , or legally questionable, features from some things) to most of their drivers etc. and they are building them, with some support available. Those drivers are available, for all "current" versions of OS/2 (warp 4, and up, AFAIK). through subscriptions. The base code is shared with the open source repositories, when it is possible to do it, but somebody else needs to build, and support, that code. I think the Arca Noae build system is kept private, and probably has patches etc. that public sources won't have. When you purchase a subscription, you support Arca Noae in making better drivers (and other things).

Note, that modifications to the kernel are not likely to be made available, unless you have a license for ArcaOS. That is, apparently, part of the deal with IBM, and isn't likely to change.

Quote
Unfortunately I can not get this LAN Compnent Update as well, as the 6 months of ArcaOS Subsrciptions just shortly dissappeard before these LAN Update was released. My other SSS expires at 31.12.2017 and seems not to have this LAN Update included. Even if I could - it would not be licensed for OS/2.

Perhaps you should have renewed your subscription. From what I know about the LAN update, it happened in the last couple of weeks, and I don't know if it will be released to the non-ArcaOS subscription (but I am inclined to think that it just hasn't got there, yet). Every subscription will run out, just before something gets released. That is one of the chances that you take when you fail to renew a subscription. It is not too late, just renew your subscription. Personally, I did let my SSS run out, because I have almost completed my conversion to ArcaOS, and I will use the ArcaOS subscription for updates.

UPDATE: On reading the announcement, it is obvious that the LAN Component Update can only be available as part of ArcaOS. Arca Noae is not licensed to make such changes to other versions of OS/2.

Quote
I'm also experiencing some frustration with the time frame of the driver releases. I was expecting to see ArcaOS released (which I don't doubt it was a very hard work) and once that milestone was completed I was hoping that Arca's resources can be focused on releasing new drivers faster since they finished the hard work of putting the whole "installation package" together.

One problem is, that the installer is not completed (and probably never will be, There is always something new to work into the mix), and the same guys who do that are the ones who do drivers, and other things. There are only so many hours available, and they can't do everything.  It is true, that USB 3, and WiFi, are high on the user's wish list, but neither one is as critical as being able to install the base system. Many new systems don't have CD/DVD drives any more, so that is part of what they are working on. USB stick install has proven to work very well, when the machine will properly handle it. Very few machines will do that, and a lot of effort has been put into making it work on most machines. We should be testing that soon.

Quote
USB 3.0 and 3.1 are needed.

So is GPT, and whatever that new one, for SSD, is. WiFi is also critical, but not as critical as some other things. Only a couple of people have any idea how to go about doing those things, or they are sitting back, and not contributing.

Speculation on what is being done, and what needs to be done, is not productive. If you need something, that isn't being done, make a business case for it, and see how many people support it. If only one person thinks they require something like punched card support, I doubt if they can make a business case for it, and they are even less likely to get others to support it. On the other hand, if a lot of people need USB 3 support, it may get bumped up the priority list. I do know, that those who are doing these things are working flat out, and they aren't about to release anything, until it is finished, and properly tested.

The scary part, for me, as a tester, is that I can sense that a number of things are coming down the pipe, and there will be a LOT of testing required, probably all at the same time that Christmas is coming.

I guess that I am trying to point out that griping isn't going to help. If you have some talent in software development, donate your time to a project. It doesn't need to be directly connected to ArcaOS, Many things need work. If you aren't a programmer, do testing for some project that somebody is working on. Help out with documentation (especially translations). Arca Noae has a group of people who are working on the project, at different levels. If you have a talent, that may be useful, make sure they now about it, but don't think you will step in, and run the project. It may also be possible that they already have enough people with your talent. Don't get discouraged, find another thing that you can do, that they may need. If Arca Noae can't use your talents, move on to some other project. There are lots of opportunities.

One thing, for sure: sitting back, and waiting for somebody else to do it, is simply going to prolong the wait.

I will point out, that not buying subscriptions is likely to make the time frame longer than what might be possible otherwise, but ArcaOS has no control over what a customer decides to do. Financial support can come quickly, or it may not come at all. Without support, not much will be accomplished.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 05:39:33 am by Doug Bissett »

Lars

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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2017, 07:38:50 am »
<quote>
- Support for accessing unpartitioned/non-LVM USB sticks (large floppy) greater than 2GB. To make life easier also. (Listed as Long Term Projects on AN Roadmap)
</quote>

As I said multiple times this issue is already solved with my USBMSD.ADD driver. I am using "large floppy" sticks of 16 GB in size and it works just fine. AN is just too ignorant or self centered to pick up the changes I did. I think they have to solve it themselves.


Andreas Schnellbacher

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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2017, 08:56:27 am »
As I said multiple times this issue is already solved with my USBMSD.ADD driver.
I already have noticed that, but was too lazy to test that.

AN is just too ignorant or self centered to pick up the changes I did. I think they have to solve it themselves.
I guess that's sooner a time problem. I don't fully understand why so many parts of AN are closed source. Especially for the installer, the DDK problem doesn't apply. For USB, I don't support the second repository either. You should sooner discuss that internally.

I support Martin to make as much as possible available as OSS.

Andreas Schnellbacher

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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2017, 09:06:47 am »
My wishlist (for more then 6 months):
1. Drivers, as named before.
2. Extended associations (XWP): Make it more stable.
3. Improve the future Web browser situation.
4. Replace IBM installation programs and use a single package manager. (That would be a huge change.)
5. NLS: Ease the creation and installation of NLS versions by distributing them as update packages of the en_US version. (That requires many changes of the current code.)

Andi B.

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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2017, 09:52:47 am »
Personally I miss SNAP most in Martins driver list. Multi head and current Intel graphic support. Most probably Panorama can never handle this.

Lars

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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2017, 01:25:27 pm »
As far as I remember Panorama requires VESA BIOS support.
For 2020, Intel announced the end of the legacy/conventional BIOS support.
From that time on there will only be "UEFI only" systems. As far as I understand that will also be the end of the VESA BIOS as we know it today. But correct me if I am wrong ...

Martin Iturbide

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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2017, 01:56:21 pm »
AN is just too ignorant or self centered to pick up the changes I did. I think they have to solve it themselves.

Lar's just a little warning. I really don't like labeling people even if it is your own personal opinion. I know that ignorant may be a light word in different cultures, but in my side of the world I can get into a fight on a street if I call someone ignorant for jaywalking. Let's don't label, let's just say "I don't know why AN don't want to pick up the changes I did to support large floppy, they are free to do it" or something like "Hey pal, please don't jaywalk, use the pedestrian crossing for your safety" :)

I also agreed that it will be better that USB project will merge together and only have one release. Comparing it to Firefox releases, maybe Lars can do the quick version release and AN release the ESR version with more testing. But it is not "just code", working together has a lot to do with the personality of the developers involved, sometime they can not work together in the same project.

By they way, I recognize my own "ignorance" on this topic. I will keep asking about this subject on other forum thread.

Regards
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 02:42:20 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Lars

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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2017, 05:04:49 pm »
Ok, I apologize.

But given the fact that I have implemented this more than 1 year ago and that AN did not pick it up (which would finally allow me and everyone else to have only one USB stack,same holds true for all changes Wim Brul and me did to USBAUDIO.SYS) you might understand my frustation a little better. Whatever I did has always been visible and accessible by AN and in the past I communicated to them whatever I did. Since they have full access they could have also taken it and fix whatever they think is wrong with it.
Unfortunately I have been ignored for the most part.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2017, 05:33:11 pm »
No problem Lars. I also had felt the frustration on some different simple things that can be fixed with ArcaOS. The good thing is that you spoke it out.  Let's move on !!

Keep posting the wishlist !!!
Martin Iturbide
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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2017, 07:42:58 pm »
Unfortunately I have been ignored for the most part.
I understand and correct my view. Good luck!

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Re: ArcaOS Wishlist - 6 months !!
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2017, 07:53:33 pm »
Ok, I apologize.

But given the fact that I have implemented this more than 1 year ago and that AN did not pick it up (which would finally allow me and everyone else to have only one USB stack,same holds true for all changes Wim Brul and me did to USBAUDIO.SYS) you might understand my frustation a little better. Whatever I did has always been visible and accessible by AN and in the past I communicated to them whatever I did. Since they have full access they could have also taken it and fix whatever they think is wrong with it.
Unfortunately I have been ignored for the most part.

If you want to help me work on ES/2, then you'd be able to implement to your heart's content. :-)

I really want to make ES/2 the best operating system in the world.  I want assistance from many people so that we are moving forward purposefully, correctly, deliberately toward the goal of empowering people with an amazing tool that doesn't spy on them, doesn't track their actions unless they explicitly and purposefully install a third-party tool to do such a thing (such as for monitoring their kid's traffic, or for law enforcement to monitor a convicted criminal's activity, etc.).

We can do it together.  I bet there are developers at IBM who are now retired who would like to come back now and help us with ES/2 since OS/2 and everything related to it will be completely out of patents in the very near future.