Author Topic: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours  (Read 2745 times)

Roderick Klein

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Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« on: February 16, 2018, 10:00:11 pm »
Reposting from last week:

Dear OS/2 users,

OS/2 VOICE used to organize IRC speaks with developers and organizations supporting the OS/2 community.

The good news is we will be holding a series of speaks ups via IRC.
If you are unfamiliar with how IRC works, then no problem.
While you can use an IRC client you can also use a your browser, which in my opinion is easier:
Before the meeting starts you goto the following URL:
https://webchat.freenode.net/

Fill in your nickname: Its preferred if you use your real name.
At the channel name fill #os2voice.

The first IRC speakup will be targeted at Westen Europe, Afrika and the American continent.
You will be able to ask questions to the Arca Noae LCC.

The speakup with Arca Noae LLC will be held on the Saturday the 17th of February and start ats 17:00 hours Amsterdam/Berlin Time. Which means:
19:00 Moscow time
11:00am New York time
08:00am Los Angeles time

The second speakup is will be held on the Sunday the 25th of February.
I will start at 02:00 Moscow time, 0:00 Amsterdam time, local time Syndey 09:00 in the moring. This means for people in New York the second speakup will start on 24th of February 18:00 hours New York time!

This second speakup is to try and accommodate the OS/2 users in Asia, Australia and New Zealand.

Its the in tension that as many of the developers from Arca NOae will be present to answer your questions. The speakup is intended to not last longer then 1 1/2 to 2 hours.

Best regards,

Roderick Klein
President OS/2 VOICE

Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2018, 06:57:57 pm »
OS/2 VOICE IRC speakup with Arca Noae

February 17, 2018

Here is the log of IRC-chat: http://en.os2.guru/showarticle.php?id=314

Sergey Posokhov

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2018, 12:56:12 pm »
Quote
Q: What application will become the MAIN application for ArcaOS? The application which attracts new people and makes them buy ArcaOS. (example: 90-th, for Macintosh it was PageMaker, 2000-th: MSOffice for Windows) Do we have such "locomotive" application or Arca Noae is developing it?
May I haz to understand where is physically existed relationship between "the MAIN locomotive application" and "attracting new people and making them buy".

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2018, 04:14:28 pm »
Hi Sergey

I understand the question is like what should be the "Killer Application" or "most common use of the OS" that makes the user to want to have ArcaOS.
Like:
- Killer Application of Windows (80's) = Office
- Killer Application of the Internet (late 90's) = email
- Killer Application of the iPhone = Angry birds :)   ok, Maybe it was more of having some Internet Services "on the Go" or the maps apps.

As a personal opinion the killer application of ArcaOS as it is today = "Run the OS/2 apps in modern hardware" (with the hardware limitations that we all know). This is an opinion that it may vary from each person, since someone else may consider a different feature the "Killer Application".

The problem with that "killer application" is that is only focused only to OS/2 users (Companies and individuals), but it will not provide any long term strategy to attract younger/new users to the platform. But I think there is room to improve ArcaOS's "Killer Application" in the future.

Regards
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 04:16:44 pm by Martin Iturbide »
Martin Iturbide
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Roderick Klein

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2018, 04:53:27 pm »
The question was asked by Eugene. But I think its realistic to say that Arca Noae is already pretty much overloaded.
As in bringing out this killer app, I do not know why people think we as a community can come up with a killer app for OS/2. The whole idea is nice, but I simply do not think its realistic.

I think what we as a community could help with to keep current users on OS/2 and try and attrack more people to OS/2 (at least try...) is by starting with this RPM library I suggested. See articles.os2voice.org for details.
Making it easier to install software such as media players, ported games, sorted by category.

How often do I not get or to see the question what software is around for OS/2. But that is just a thought. How can we focus on things we can do today and might me easier todo that to look for one killer app...

Roderick

Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2018, 06:11:58 pm »
Killer application is the topic #1.

There are 2 ways: 1) degradation and shrinking of the market  OR  2) expansion and growth

No killer application - no sellings of new licenses. If the killer application exists, then 1 license can be sold today.


Roderick Klein

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2018, 08:29:59 pm »
Anyway to keep it all very simple. There is not going to be a killer for OS/2 and I do not understand why you put so much focus on this killer application. Such a killer application may have been something possible 20 or 25 years ago. But does days are gone. Even if you would create this killer application you are referring to it would not result in more licenses.  A killer feature would be reimplemented on other platforms (mobile phone and tablet in no time).

What is a strong point as Martin mentioned running your OS/2 applications today on current hardware and that OS/2 is not a cloud connected OS that (like an Android phone) leaks data. You have not complete, but you have MORE privacy/control then with other devices/OS'es. That would be not a killer feature, but a killer functionality...

That said in order for people to use an operating they need more then just ONE killer app. Hence the idea for more software in RPM software to make the useability of the platform slightly bigger. LIke a repackaged media player that installs with a one click...

David Graser

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2018, 08:50:35 pm »
Killer application is the topic #1.

There are 2 ways: 1) degradation and shrinking of the market  OR  2) expansion and growth

No killer application - no sellings of new licenses. If the killer application exists, then 1 license can be sold today.

I think you both are correct.  The problem presently is limited resources and how to best utilize them.  The lack of eComstation development the past few years has set the platform back tremendously and hurt the developers who supported it.  In fact, I am sure a lot of them felt betrayed and some left.  Then there are those that think like I do that the WPS has no match on any other platform. 

I for one have been waiting for WIFI for around 7 years.  In fact, I was forced to use my wife's Mac because I had no easy access to an Ethernet outlet.  Yes, I could have bought a laptop with Windows, but I did not care to.  I don't like it being a resource hog and I don't like being tracked on my computer and internet.   However, seeing that OS/2 was being developed in its present form, I broke down and bought a refurbished laptop so I could test and see what has changed.  Yes, I have to use Windows for some things, but I don't like it.

Other thoughts I have.

1.  WIFI, USB3, and printing are a must just to continue to operate. 

2.  I don't think we have to worry about ArcaOS being a gaming platform since most gamers now prefer their gaming consoles.  However, small games like card games, poker games and Mahjong would have an appeal so long as they graphics are well done, enjoyable to play, and the software reasonably priced.

3.  It will have to have what everyone else has such as internet browser and emailer.

4.  People will have to have access to an up-to-date office suite.  Open office development must continue.

5.  PMView needs to be supported by the OS/2 community so we at least have some grahics capability.

Anyone ever played Warcraft or Starcraft back before online gaming became very popular?  One always started out overwhelmed by the opposing forces.  One had to build up ones resources fast just to just to stay alive long enough to counterattack the opposing forces.

I believe Roderick is correct that the base itself needs to be updated.  I like YUM after having used it.  Eugene is correct that a killer application will go a long way to bring in the youngsters.  One of the problems with a killer app is that Windows has no shame stealing ideas and possible code.  Remember back when it was believed that they were using Netscape coding in their software.

Eugene, what do you think the next killer app will be? 

One point ArcaOS developers can do is ensure that their are no back doors into their operating system that allows the alphabet agencies access to computers.  Make the system as hack proof as possible.  This could be a major selling point.  How fool proof is it against viruses?  Can a Windows virus bring down the system? 

This is just my thoughts from an end users perspective.

David
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 09:06:12 pm by David Graser »

Roderick Klein

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2018, 09:41:55 pm »
David when it comes to the killer app I think that is fantasy by now. I will explain why.
More and more its about data and not the OS (platform you run).  While I do not like cloud storage.
I do need a computer to file my tax return and to have convenient access to my bank account etc.
I am more then happy to hear what Eugene his idea is what items we could think of being a killer app for the platform.

I read somewhere that USB 3.0 is getting pretty close. At least at AN they are working on this issue.
Printing we have CUPS and improvements continue to be made on it. ArcaOS I understood ships with a postscript that fixes longstanding issue's for supporting CUPS. \

Wifi is much more complex but its being worked as well by Arca Noae.  The wifi story is long and sadly more complex. I used to work at Mensys and the time the Multimac project was started. The idea was to first work on ethernet drivers by porting LInux code. Work on Wifi got started but after the Linux kernel guys modified something the Multimac Linux approach was broken. I understood from David Azarewicz from Arca Noae that Wifi drivers ARE WAY MORE complex then wifi drivers.  They now have a whole bunch of new ethernet drivers ported with a FreeBSD library and Wifi is being worked on.  So they are working on wifi drivers its just a lot of work. And other projects such as ACPI and other drivers also require attention.

We have the current version of Open Office and work on Firefox and Thunderbird moves on.

Anyway the community can not count on BWW and Arca Noae alone to pull this long overloaded freight train up the mountain. This why I was trying to see if people would be willing to help package RPM packages so that some of this software could be easly found in one repo and installed with one click and updated when updates are released.

All free of charge of course.

Doug Bissett

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2018, 05:58:11 am »
Quote
1.  WIFI, USB3, and printing are a must just to continue to operate.

WiFi can be worked around, by using an Ethernet adapter. I use a D-Link 506-L device. USB 3 is necessary, since manufacturers aren't supplying anything else now, and I do know that Arca Noae is working on it. Printing is an interesting topic. 30 years ago, I was told that printing wouldn't exist in 5 years. Well, here we are, and it is still essential. Personally, I don't print much any more, but it is still essential. I never did figure out how printer manufacturers could invent so many ways to do printing. It would seem to be a pretty simple concept, but I suppose that copyright laws force them to invent new ways to do it.

Quote
4.  People will have to have access to an up-to-date office suite.  Open office development must continue.

This is more of a sales job, than a necessity. If you need to stay compatible with other platforms, yes, you probably need a current office suite. On the other hand, almost any office suite will do what most people need, and more.

Quote
5.  PMView needs to be supported by the OS/2 community so we at least have some grahics capability.

Now, if there is a "killer" app, for OS/2, this is it. Unfortunately, one of these days, support for PMView is going to go away, unless the author takes steps to open source it, or turn it over to someone who can continue development. We lost Describe, because that wasn't done, but those who have Describe can still use it, and it works as well as it ever did (and better than most). The problem is, that you cannot get a new license to use it, and it can't be updated to support new hardware. There is nothing wrong with the program itself.

Quote
All free of charge of course.

Nothing is "free'. You either put some effort into helping, or you support it by paying for it. Anybody who thinks it will come "free" is dreaming.

Sergey Posokhov

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2018, 10:05:55 am »
So, it's time to come to a conclusion.
There is no cause-and-effect relationship between "killer app" and "sales".

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2018, 01:28:42 pm »

Quote
All free of charge of course.

Nothing is "free'. You either put some effort into helping, or you support it by paying for it. Anybody who thinks it will come "free" is dreaming.

Hi Doug.

I disagree. There are people that like to help other for free. There are people that runs websites, compile software, create kernels and answer forums for free with the goal to help people and their communities.

If you still disagree please follow this link.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.

David Graser

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2018, 03:14:03 pm »
[valerius] LewisR EA would be supported like FAT, e.g. with emulating
           EA's via files, it it's needed. But the main purpose of ext2
           support is not using as an OS/2 partition, but more as a means
           for exchanging data with Linux.

I think this is a good point Valery brought up during the chat session.  By the way, thank you Valery for a fully functional fat32 driver! I downloaded your latest driver and it works great.  This is a must for every non Windows operating system.  If we want to lure Linux users to try out ArcaOS, it needs an updated ext2 driver for them to access their linux systems.   I agree with Valery that it is needed for the exchange of data.  This could be another selling point.  It would be nice also if there was a working NTFS driver for ArcaOS.  I have tried Netdrive and it will not work (unless I have done something wrong).

[LewisR] VMs: Do we need VMs as in running ArcaOS as a hypervisor?

[LewisR] I don't see a 32-bit OS as a very useful hypervisor, personally,
         though there are reasons to run smaller OSes under ArcaOS.
[Roderick] Well I tried the BWW Virtualbox and one big issue is that
           ArcaOS can only use 4 GB of RAM. We have the new loader that
           you can use a ramdrive.

Is it possible to do on-the-fly RAM compression to increase the amount of RAM available?   Have 4 GB available , but when compressed, have more of the 4GB of RAM available for use. Remember when hard drives were compressed (Stacker 4 for OS/2, Zipstream) to give people more space due to the limitation of the drives back in the late 80's and early nineties. Due to the speed of RAM, there might not be too big of a performance hit.

With ArcaOS, one can now create a RAM drive and put in low and/orhigh memory.  If this were feasible, an option could be make available to compress the RAM drive.   

I wonder if 7-zip could be utilized to do any of this.

7-Zip is probably the leading free file compression software for Windows with its amazing ability to shrink files on the fly. It has advanced functionalities that include the capacity to produce solid and self-extracting archives as well as to modify password protection and compression level. Albeit it has a minimalistic interface, it is easy to understand and operate. 7-Zip supports 7z, ZIP, CAB, RAR, ARJ, GZIP, BZIP2, Z, TAR, CPIO, RPM, and DEB. For a free software, the performance is close to perfection. stated by RAMESH NATARAJAN on SEPTEMBER 13, 2011 -Top Five File Compression software

David
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 07:48:38 pm by David Graser »

David Graser

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2018, 04:31:34 pm »

Quote
All free of charge of course.

Nothing is "free'. You either put some effort into helping, or you support it by paying for it. Anybody who thinks it will come "free" is dreaming.

Hi Doug.

I disagree. There are people that like to help other for free. There are people that runs websites, compile software, create kernels and answer forums for free with the goal to help people and their communities.

Martin
I think their is no disagreement between you two.  What you have stated is what Doug means.  One either puts in time receiving no monetary return or or one does it for some monetary return.  It's either time or money.  That's what he means by nothing is free.

David

Dave Yeo

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Re: Reminder about OS/2 VOICE IIRC speaktup in about 18 hours
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2018, 10:10:06 pm »
Hi,
About memory. While, from my limited understanding, the i386 architecture is limited to 4 GiB address structure (minus overhead for kernel, pci devices and such bringing it closer to 3GiB), it allows something like a terrabyte of virtual memory (48bits). So in theory can for example run 3+ 2GB programs with the only downside being lots of swap file thrashing.
In practice, our kernel (and device drivers), originally designed at a time when 16 MiB of memory was a lot, use lots of 32 bit, often signed, variables and even 16 bit, which gives practical limits in what OS/2 is capable of. For example I discovered the hard way that the system dies with a "swap file full" error when the swap file grows over 2GiB.
Basically we're really limited in the memory department due to design and without rewriting the kernel (and selected device drivers), that's the way it is.
This is what will kill our OS in respect to running modern applications in the new 64bit world. Already developers are not caring about 32bit.

In respect to security, most malware is now browser based, eg using JavaScript. Unluckily we always seem to be a year behind so our browser probably has unpatched vulnerabilities and this probably won't change if we switch to webkit excepting we'll have Chrome flaws instead of Mozilla flaws.
On the bright side, some of this malware expects a Windows (or Android etc) system and will fail on OS/2.