Tetris-like game

[Doug Bissett]

For ES/2 I plan to write a replacement PM.  It should compile and work with OS/2 with minimal changes.  I will be writing several drivers and many of those will likely be portable to OS/2 as well.  I think there will be at least 70% of what I write for ES/2 that can be ported to OS/2 with little effort ...

ES/2, and drivers, don't exist, until it can be demonstrated that they actually work (even if not perfectly). Meanwhile, we struggle just to keep what we already have, working. It is rumored that USB 3 is close to existing, followed closely by WiFi support, but they don't exist, yet. We needed USB 3, 5 years ago, and we needed WiFi support, 15 years ago. Users are often forced to leave OS/2 because of things like that. Once they are gone, it can be a real struggle to get them back, even when the initial problem has been rectified. We need updated drivers now. Of course, we also need a new kernel now. Many of us can't see OS/2 surviving long enough for you to create a new kernel. A replacement PM is probably one of the last things that we need right now. PM is one of the most stable parts of OS/2, but I can see that you would want a new one, to work with a new kernel.

but I am hoping people will see value in ES/2 since it's open source, and move over porting their OS/2 apps to ES/2 with minimal changes.

Well, there you have a BIG problem. A lot of OS/2 software is obsolete, closed source, and just plain not available to be modified. It will either work, as it is, or it won't. There will be no "minimal changes" to a lot of it. If somebody needs to switch to a new spreadsheet (for instance), they might as well switch to an established operating system (Linux), rather than spend time sorting out problems with a new one (ES/2). It isn't an easy thing, and you are the "new kid on the block". It would probably be easier if you gradually introduced new things, that already work in OS/2, then, eventually, offer a new kernel. to enhance what already exists.

Just my POV.

[Martin Iturbide]

Hi Doug

Again in the philosophical discussion, I disagree:

A replacement PM is probably one of the last things that we need right now. PM is one of the most stable parts of OS/2, but I can see that you would want a new one, to work with a new kernel.

If someone does not start creating a kernel or a PM replacement today, in 15 years you (metaphorically speaking) are going to complain that we need and a replacement for those components and that we are very late (just like you refer to the wifi drivers).

Also, software gets improved with time, so the first version of a kernel or PM replacement will necessary suck very bad, until with time get polished by one or several developers (and it will be better if it is open source). So it is important to have developers starting now on that area. I'm not willing to say a developer that wants to create a replacement kernel that is better to develop a driver. Kernel and PM replacement are long term projects, drivers are short term and will became useless on the next hardware update wave.

Anyways, the developer is always free to develop whatever he/she wants, specially if he is doing that as a part of a community and free of charge.

On the other hand, I also share the idea that we need to see accomplishment, beta versions, or at least something more than just good intentions, otherwise is just vaporware.

Regards

[Dave Yeo]

The problem is so many OS/2 apps aren't open source and most of those that are, are ports to begin with.

[RickCHodgin]

The problem is so many OS/2 apps aren't open source and most of those that are, are ports to begin with.

We can rewrite them all.  It just takes teamwork.

[xynixme]

They seem to be losing the race

Of course they are losing the racing, because the reduced number of available OS languages already has reduced the number of users significantly. Small communities tend to "move on", while leaving most of the community behind. Sometimes with weird excuses, like the frequently used "most of us are using xWorkplace" or targetted non-OS/2 CPUs while claiming to write OS/2 software.

No need to explain why eCS 2.x DE may account for Silvian and eCS 2.x EN for Dave (and a few countries where well over 95% of the people calim to speak English), but there is that language-related link.

A neutral case may still be Object Rexx. We could still be the largest installed base, but were left behind because the happy few wanted to "move on" (and accepted a matching offer).

It's just a conclusion. Translating ArcaOS 7 to e.g. Finnish, Italian and Japanese won't restore the size of the community, and may stretch available resources beyond limits. I could have left the community too, if I wouldn't have bought more than enough old machines about 10-15 years ago. Albeit leaving isn't really an option, due to the software in use and as long as browsing is reasonably possible.

There may be a few strategic errors too, like trying to support more hardware than required. It was hard to keep up with *.*, and it will become even harder to try to keep up with *.*. We may reach the end before 64 bits would kill us.

Back on-topic: the development of games can be used to learning something step-by-step, but I'm not sure how classic 32-bit Windows games will efficiently contribute to climbing a steep 16-bit Win-OS/2 and 64-bit OS/2 learning curve.

[RickCHodgin]

There may be a few strategic errors too, like trying to support more hardware than required. It was hard to keep up with *.*, and it will become even harder to try to keep up with *.*. We may reach the end before 64 bits would kill us.

FWIW, I personally believe in the OS/2 design and philosophy.  I am looking forward to completing ES/2 and giving us all a true path forward for OS/2's design and legacy.

[Andi B.]

The problem is so many OS/2 apps aren't open source and most of those that are, are ports to begin with.

We can rewrite them all.  It just takes teamwork.

I wish you success. But before I believe in your work I need to see something that really works. You do not need to rewrite f.i. PMView for that. You only need to recompile Apache Open Office and Seamonkey on your kernel to proselytize me. Or current Firefox 64 instead SM if you like.

We, the current remaining OS/2 community can not even do that. But you talk about as it would be an easy job for you or a small group of believers. Of course in theory it's true

We can rewrite them all.

But in practice it's no more than a lot of hot air. It's clear you do not have the slightest idea what work it would take to do what you're talking about. Even if a few hundred developers would devote all their spare time on your projects I don't believe you can reach the 'simple' target - AOO and SM on your kernel - within the next 10 years. Please proof me wrong.

I have written a Tetris-like game for Windows.

In case you missed it, this is os2world.com not windoze.spam.

[RickCHodgin]

snip

Have you ever seen this TV show?  And specifically this segment?

Sports Night -- Sam Donovan -- Cliff Gardner speech

We could all learn something from Sam on how to encourage people to do their best work (and not so much on the rededicating the rest of your life aspect, though you do have to admire his passion).

-----
My goals are different than traditional open source software endeavors.  I have a purpose and a plan and a focus in doing what I'm doing.  It's not for trivial pursuits I'm trying to move forward.  It's to give mankind something new.  It is a huge undertaking, and I have to go through stages to get to the place where I can do it.  I am doing that presently, and this game authoring is part of those stages.

I have demonstrated my coding ability in several things I have done from scratch in short periods of time.  This game is one of them.  I started on it the weekend before Christmas 2018, and its design was completed in early January, and I'm currently tweaking the last few features of it.  In that time I've created a base gaming engine which will allow me to write games #2, #3, #4, etc., much faster.  I have created a sound system capable of mixing together n-audio channels in real-time using limited processing power.  I have created new and re-used existing graphics algorithms from my Visual FreePro project.  And as far as new from-scratch OS-related code goes, I began writing screen drivers and disk drivers for ES/1.

Nearly every person on this board has been standoffish or hostile toward me because I have evangelized in the past.  I am truly hated by many people on this board for that reason.  I can't change that aspect of their feelings toward me, but I am not some hateful person.  I have the most sincere and best intentions for ES/1 and ES/2, as well as the other projects I'm involved with.  I am sincere in moving them forward, but they do require sequencing to get there.  I have been working on this project since July, 2012, with some time off in early 2015 thru early 2018 because I got sick (I think I worked myself into exhaustion to be honest).  I've since re-grouped and have re-focused my life, drawing my entire family's resources toward these project ends.

You say you want to see some progress?  I'm not just seeking to recompile FF or SM on OS/2.  You can use those apps on another OS for whatever purposes you want.  I'm seeking to create an entire new community, a new system of processing, a new way of interacting with one another that is not part of this existing infrastructure we've seen evolve into this heavy-handed platform of bandwidth waste and CPU hogging utilization on hardware that has known exploits that I have no doubt were engineered to be in there on purpose with technologies like vPro even from the early days.

We can do far better than that, and I am striving to do better than that.

I come here asking for help on my projects, but everybody is stuck on the "Let's make OS/2 look like every other OS out there" bandwagon.  Well I'm sorry, but OS/2 is not like every other OS out there.  Its capabilities are far greater.  We had things in OS/2 2.x that we still don't have in Windows 10!  And there are many more features needed.

When I get to the point in 2020 that I'm ready to start working on my ES/1 and ES/2 kernels, and the overall suite of apps that will make them work ... you will then see my foot to the floor, and see what one man with a vision and high passion for that vision can accomplish.  Until then, you'll have to trust that behind the scenes I'm moving like a duck's feet below water.  You only see the slow-moving surface "Rick" ... but underneath, hidden from view, there's a significant movement.

And I am content to leave OS/2 World until I'm ready to begin working on this project.  I do not appreciate the ongoing hatred I receive, the sidelong insults given in the form of support (as Martin is so fond of doing in nearly every post).

I am not writing ES/2 for any of you specifically.  I am writing it because I have been blessed with a certain skillset and I have a desire to use that skillset for honorable purposes, and not for money purposes, or not for control or domination purposes.  I want to create something amazing and give it to people, source code and all, in the Public Domain, so people can use them for whatever purposes they see fit.  I literally want to change the world, and your comments, and other people's comments, and even any encouragement I receive one way or the other, none of it will make any difference because my goals are from within, not from without.

If you want to wait until there is a bootable kernel before being convinced ... fine.  That is your prerogative.

[Ian B Manners]

  I am truly hated by many people on this board for that reason.  I can't change that aspect of their feelings toward me, but I am not some hateful person.  I have the most sincere and best intentions for ES/1 and ES/2, as well as the other projects I'm involved with.  I am sincere in moving them forward, but they do require sequencing to get there.  I have been working on this project since July, 2012, with some time off in early 2015 thru early 2018 because I got sick (I think I worked myself into exhaustion to be honest).  I've since re-grouped and have re-focused my life, drawing my entire family's resources toward these project ends.

I don't hate, I will admit to getting annoyed, takes to much effort.

We are all human, with faults, bias's etc, that's life. Is it not wonderful that we are all different? How boring would it be if we where all the same. I also realise that we humans are normally incredibly bad in setting realistic goal time lines, and it is good to see someone like Rick set realistic time frames for goals.

The process of learning how somethings works also requires starting somewhere that others have likely done a long time ago but we all need to put the stake in the ground and say this is where I am starting. Sometimes we need to move that post, especially when life intervenes, and sometimes in the process of learning we have to reinvent the wheel when we are in unfamiliar territory so we can get our bearings. Our communities resources are limited, it pains me to see some people make it difficult for others to make a start somewhere in our community. Yes, some of us think Rick's talents could be better harnessed if directed to current projects that lack resources but lets be honest, this is up to Rick to make the choice as to where he wants to direct his talents, they are his after all

If someone is not causing a problem, let them do their thing, you never know where it will lead.
I would rather someone applied some effort into anything OS/2 related than to see them walk away because we pushed them

Most importantly, keep smiling
As much as we all love OS/2, it's an operating system, there are more important things in all of our lives that we sometimes lose sight of.

[RickCHodgin]

...Our communities resources are limited, it pains me to see some people make it difficult for others to make a start somewhere in our community. Yes, some of us think Rick's talents could be better harnessed if directed to current projects that lack resources but lets be honest, this is up to Rick to make the choice as to where he wants to direct his talents, they are his after all

All of the code I write for ES/1 and ES/2 are also in the Public Domain.  People can scour what I write and extract algorithms, functions, ideas, concepts, and use them wherever they see fit.  It's part of the goal of my tasks.

In ES/1 last November, for example, using IBM PC DOS I wrote a system to enter VESA graphics modes in the CPU's 16-bit real-mode, and write text in graphics mode using 16-bit, 24-bit, or 32-bit color.  I enter un-real mode to do it, and use FS: and GS: to access the video card's frame buffer for memory.  I extracted fonts from an SVGA card to get actual fonts we would've seen in DOS's text modes on the display.  It supports 8x8,8x14, and 8x16 font sizes, and these can easily be doubled to 16x wide instead of 8x wide, etc, or scaled up to be 16x32, etc.

The same code also supports a flashing cursor and mouse pointers and whatever video modes are exposed by VESA.  I was using 1280 x 1024, and tested it out with other modes as well.

There are lots of algorithms I've created in my Visual FreePro, Jr. project that can be used.  I've created an object model for use within VJr.  This is all C-code, and not C++ code (though I do use a C++ compiler to compile it due to some syntax relaxations, but no classes, no parts of C++ standard library, etc.).

This same code concept (around line 1189) can be applied to the PM, for example, and even to a file system which directly supports embedded objects.

There is so much potential.  If I had money I would devote my life full-time to completing this project right now.

[Pete]

Hi All

I have to agree with the points Ian makes.

I do admit to getting a little annoyed when Rick gets into his religion thing - Sorry, Rick, this is an OS/2 forum - but when he concentrates on OS/2 related topics I find him interesting.

If I had the technical skills I would be interested in finding out more about his projects with a view to possibly getting involved. However, being a very occasional vaguely competent programmer using a pascal dialect/variant and with little spare time I doubt I could be of any help at the moment - must be over 20 years since I last wrote a very simple c program...

I certainly wish him all the best with his projects and look forward to seeing the results at some time in the future.

In the meantime Rick do Please keep posting progress reports.


Regards

Pete

[Andi B.]

I tried to refrain from answering you again but as you constantly preach your point of view and ignoring what others say I have to make a final post on this from my side.

For me it seems you don't want to take advices from others and you absolutely don't want to discuss arguments coming from others. Instead you constantly complain that others are not polite enough to you. ('hatred', 'sidelong insults', .... ). For me it's obvious you understand a lot of what was written here in a different way than I do. That's okay. People are different. Communication is a complicated thing especially if it happens only in written form and when non native speakers are involved like me.

For me all what you write here is a lot of marketing speech which is hardly related to OS/2. Neither your religious things nor your private things belongs to this forum (only my personal POV of course). Even most of your technical talking is hardly related to OS/2 ('tetris for windows', even your ES/x are clearly different to OS/2 as of your own words, and even your goal is NOT to run OS/2 software but to rewrite all of them at best). That's the reason I will ignore all your future posts.

As you constantly emphasize your skills and your project leading capabilities to try to motivate others to follow your ES/x development I think you neglect that there are other experienced people here with similar skills and know how. I for myself work in computer industry for more than 30 years. I've programmed basic graphic VGA drivers and applications like your tetris more than 30 years ago. I've worked for so much different projects, small and big, software, hardware, complex systems, ... that I've seen so many successful projects but also failing ones. I've seen so much people who talk about projects and ultimate features although they don't had the insight to really understand what they are promising. A lot of time people are simply to childish to have an overview of what it really takes to make happen what they are promising. Some 'programmers' built there first C hello world program and think from now they are the hero software leaders who will lead the world in the near future. That does not mean you fall in this category. But your resistance to discuss the consequences of your talking ('we can rewrite them all') is not the best requisite for handling such a big projects well IMHO.

Anyway I wish you success with your projects. Maybe sometimes when you have something OS/2 related or even Linux related I'll even test it. But I for myself being not very interested in Windoze or DOSish stuff anymore.

Live long an prosper.

[RickCHodgin]

Anyway I wish you success with your projects. Maybe sometimes when you have something OS/2 related or even Linux related I'll even test it.

Linux:  A 6x6 chess game called Chess36.  Compiles under GCC 4.6 (when I wrote it in 2012).  Runs under X.

Linux:  An x86 protected mode disassembler.  Ported from my Exodus OS x86 module into C and GCC, it takes as input a binary snippet and translates it into assembly opcodes.  It was designed to work with the instruction pointer's address, and decode whatever's there in 32-bit pmode assembly.

OS/2:  The XDF extractor utility, which takes 1.84 MB .XDF or .DSK files and extracts out their contents to the target folder.  Works in Windows or OS/2.  Also on eCSoft/2, and Hobbes.

But I for myself being not very interested in Windoze or DOSish stuff anymore.

I only use Windows because it has the best developer environment in existence.  Show me a toolset more capable than Visual Studio 2017 (or even approaching it somewhat) and I'll switch today.  I actually use Visual Studio 2008 for nearly all personal development.

Live long an prosper.

Peace and long life.

UPDATE:  Your post and Star Trek reference made me think of a reference that is applicable here.  "In every revolution there is one man with a vision." :-)

[RickCHodgin]

For me all what you write here is a lot of marketing speech which is hardly related to OS/2. Neither your religious things nor your private things belongs to this forum (only my personal POV of course). Even most of your technical talking is hardly related to OS/2 ('tetris for windows', even your ES/x are clearly different to OS/2 as of your own words, and even your goal is NOT to run OS/2 software but to rewrite all of them at best). That's the reason I will ignore all your future posts.

I've been thinking about my goals for ES/2 and while I do not agree that my posts here are "marketing speech," I do agree that it is not directly related to OS/2.  My goal with ES/2 is to create something OS/2 users can migrate to and have a new open source OS that has the look, feel, and general design of OS/2, but is not OS/2.  It will be an amalgam of OS/2 design and what I personally view is needed to be a good user-based OS (not server-based).

As such, I'm content to leave the forum here and continue development on my own.  I have a website, a wiki, a forum, etc., and will continue to develop and use those assets and tools for my project's needs.

Peace and long life, Andi B.  Good luck with your work on keeping OS/2 4.x and its direct descendants alive.

UPDATE:  If any of you would like to follow along with ES/2 development, please feel free to contact me via email.