Author Topic: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn  (Read 2187 times)

André Heldoorn

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Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« on: May 07, 2019, 04:03:29 pm »
I noticed today that "libcn0.dll" is available on the regular (non experimental) netlabs rpm repository. That means that regular users can now get that DLL.
Thank you. Albeit I dare to state that "regular" implies all brands of OS/2, and mainly installs without bleedin' RPM, so it's a bit of a stretch to imply that ArcaOS and perhaps eCS 2.x are representing what "regular" is.

I haven't seen a more regular *CN* RPM ZIP file so far, FWIW. ArcaOS will be regular for users of an English OS indeed, but that's a minority. Surely you aren't claiming that users of e.g. a Spanish version of OS/2 aren't "regular users"... :)

Jochen Schäfer

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2019, 04:21:40 pm »
I noticed today that "libcn0.dll" is available on the regular (non experimental) netlabs rpm repository. That means that regular users can now get that DLL.
Thank you. Albeit I dare to state that "regular" implies all brands of OS/2, and mainly installs without bleedin' RPM, so it's a bit of a stretch to imply that ArcaOS and perhaps eCS 2.x are representing what "regular" is.

I haven't seen a more regular *CN* RPM ZIP file so far, FWIW. ArcaOS will be regular for users of an English OS indeed, but that's a minority. Surely you aren't claiming that users of e.g. a Spanish version of OS/2 aren't "regular users"... :)
He never implied regular OS/2. He was speaking of the regular RPM repository.

Doug Bissett

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2019, 04:28:31 pm »
Quote
Thank you. Albeit I dare to state that "regular" implies all brands of OS/2, and mainly installs without bleedin' RPM, so it's a bit of a stretch to imply that ArcaOS and perhaps eCS 2.x are representing what "regular" is.

Sorry, but modern OS/2 includes RPM/YUM support. To say otherwise is equivalent to saying that Warp 4 was not "regular" OS/2, because it added network support, that Warp 3 did not have. "Regular" OS/2 is what is available TODAY. Even eCS is obsolete. You can add some things, like RPM/YUM support, to older versions of OS/2, but they are still obsolete.

Quote
ArcaOS will be regular for users of an English OS indeed, but that's a minority.

Language support is coming for ArcaOS. Translations are happening, but it takes a LOT of hard work (and time) to find all of the parts, change them, verify that the changes were correct, and test the changes. Then they need to adjust the rest of the OS to handle different languages properly. Many changes are already incorporated, but language support is not ready, yet.

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2019, 11:13:56 pm »

Sorry, but modern OS/2 includes RPM/YUM support. To say otherwise is equivalent to saying that Warp 4 was not "regular" OS/2, because it added network support, that Warp 3 did not have. "Regular" OS/2 is what is available TODAY. Even eCS is obsolete. You can add some things, like RPM/YUM support, to older versions of OS/2, but they are still obsolete.

Sorry, this seems to be wrong as well, at least I remember a version that was called OS/2 Warp connect, based on Warp 3 with allmost all the network parts that have been recycled in Warp 4.

Language support is coming for ArcaOS. Translations are happening, but it takes a LOT of hard work (and time) to find all of the parts, change them, verify that the changes were correct, and test the changes. Then they need to adjust the rest of the OS to handle different languages properly. Many changes are already incorporated, but language support is not ready, yet.

If you believe it or not, repeating things and the same arguments like you are doing for years know (just like your comments on USB 3, WLAN and so on) does not change anything or make things happen. I am reading this for ages now, every time the same answers if someone is going to critizise your "holy" ArcaOS. It might be worth to consider, that some users did trust in the promises that "there will be sometime this and that feature" and paid a reasonable amount of money - but these things are still not there, as there is allways "something else more important". So it is up to everyone himself to judge about ARcaOS in a way he/she does, it does not depend on the opinion of someone else.

And if you believe it or not, it is still possible to add allmost all enhancements from ArcaOS to a Warp 4.52, without using YUM/RPM, I did this last time in December last year when I decided to stop for a while with ArcaOS, nativ on a Thinkpad 25.

I just reactivated, renovated, repaired my Pentium III 600 Mhz PC from 1999, and OS/2 Warp 4.52 is running fluent on it. It just works as it ought to. For now I am collecting hardware to reassemble my first PC from 1995 with original parts - and the riginal preinstalled software. That makes so much fun!

Cheers and all the best! ;)

EDIT: if interested in, you can follow my Retro PCs at the OS2.DE Forum, here: https://www.os2.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1652
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 11:28:09 pm by Sigurd Fastenrath »

Alex Taylor

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2019, 01:53:21 am »
Quote
Language support is coming for ArcaOS. Translations are happening, but it takes a LOT of hard work (and time) to find all of the parts, change them, verify that the changes were correct, and test the changes. Then they need to adjust the rest of the OS to handle different languages properly. Many changes are already incorporated, but language support is not ready, yet.

This is not quite accurate.  The necessary hooks for language support are already largely implemented in ArcaOS.  The number 1 bottleneck is finding people to actually do the translations.  (That said, Spanish and German are well on their way to readiness.) 

However, non-English versions of ArcaOS are, as they always have been, planned for version 5.1, not 5.0.  This has not changed since the earliest announcement of ArcaOS as a product.

If you believe it or not, repeating things and the same arguments like you are doing for years know (just like your comments on USB 3, WLAN and so on) does not change anything or make things happen. I am reading this for ages now, every time the same answers if someone is going to critizise your "holy" ArcaOS. It might be worth to consider, that some users did trust in the promises that "there will be sometime this and that feature" and paid a reasonable amount of money - but these things are still not there, as there is allways "something else more important". So it is up to everyone himself to judge about ARcaOS in a way he/she does, it does not depend on the opinion of someone else.

I really have no idea what you mean by this.  TTBOMK, there is no feature that was promised for ArcaOS 5.0 has not been delivered.  (You mention USB3 and WLAN, which are part of the driver subscription roadmap, not ArcaOS; while they may have been mentioned as aspirational items for 5.1 – which is not out yet – they have never been advertised as ArcaOS 5.0 features.)


(Note: I am not speaking officially on behalf of Arca Noae; nor, for that matter, is anyone else who has posted in this thread so far.)

Doug Bissett

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2019, 02:14:45 am »
Quote
Sorry, this seems to be wrong as well, at least I remember a version that was called OS/2 Warp connect, based on Warp 3 with allmost all the network parts that have been recycled in Warp 4.

And that was subsequently replaced by SAMBA (which still has some serious problems, but works better than Lan Manager, in modern networks).

Quote
If you believe it or not, repeating things and the same arguments like you are doing for years know (just like your comments on USB 3, WLAN and so on) does not change anything or make things happen.

You have no faith. I do have a test version of the USB 3 driver. it loads, but still doesn't connect USB devices. Small steps forward, but it is just a more difficult project than anyone expected.

Saying that it isn't happening is not helpful. If Arca Noae had another 200 competent programmers, a lot of that stuff could have been done long ago. As it is, the very few who are doing the job are overworked, and they can't spend every hour of the day working on those projects. It all takes time, and every one has more than one job to do.

Quote
And if you believe it or not, it is still possible to add allmost all enhancements from ArcaOS to a Warp 4.52, without using YUM/RPM

If you actually believe that, you have no idea what you are saying. There are many things that are in ArcaOS, that cannot be made available for older versions of OS/2. The contract with IBM forbids it. Arca Noae has permission, from IBM, to distribute patched versions of the IBM software (the kernel, for example), but only for those who use ArcaOS. Nobody else has permission to do that, or to use the Arca Noae patched software. Others may do it, illegally, without drawing any interest from IBM, but Arca Noae must stick to the rules of the contract.

RPM/YUM contains far more than just DLLs (and is outside of the IBM contract). Have you installed all of that too? RPM/YUM can be installed on older versions of OS/2 (I suggest using the free Arca Noae Package Manager, to make it much easier), and takes a big step toward getting OS/2 updated to run modern software. Doing that manually is a waste of time, and effort, because you are unlikely to get all of it installed correctly. Use the proper tools for the job, and you get a better end result, with a lot less work. Having said that, I will admit that I do not like RPM/YUM, but it is the tool that is provided, and it works until a user tries to outsmart it, or until somebody provides  a bad package (which hasn't happened to me, recently).

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2019, 08:34:04 am »
First of all - sorry to Jochen, for using his thread in this way! Dosbox is really great and I really do appreciate your work!!!

Just for once again, and just to proof that Doug is wrong I will answer to his reply:

You have no faith. I do have a test version of the USB 3 driver. it loads, but still doesn't connect USB devices. Small steps forward, but it is just a more difficult project than anyone expected. Saying that it isn't happening is not helpful. If Arca Noae had another 200 competent programmers, a lot of that stuff could have been done long ago. As it is, the very few who are doing the job are overworked, and they can't spend every hour of the day working on those projects. It all takes time, and every one has more than one job to do.

As I wrote before and as it is usual: repeating the same things again and again....

And for the "wishes, Projections and so on": take a look at Lewis Presentation at Warpstock Europe 2017, where there are mentioned:

- USB 3.0 in the works (2016 David said it is about 95% done)
- Mulitmac Wifi is in the works (?)
- Language Pac conversion from english for installed en_US 5.0 systems (not 5.1!)
- not to mention: UNIAUD

This stands there side by side with things like "Migration" and so on.

Yes, everything is to AN to decide what is important to them or not (as I wrote multiple times before) and everything is a wish list and so on. But when it comes to the end, down to facts, the three things most important to me are allways falling down to the end of the list. It is not complaining, it is just the way it is.
And it does not help to repeat againg and again the well known facts with the lack of developers and so on and so on. And yes, AN has to serve industrial customers first, to make profit. But if your focus is more and more to "Just" make profit, you do not have to wonder if the "usual" user turns to something else. As easy as this.

If you actually believe that, you have no idea what you are saying.


Here again the usual answer, when you are running out of facts or arguments.

And even worse: you might consider that such replies may harm users, do show no respect, and finally even worse - discredit them.


There are many things that are in ArcaOS, that cannot be made available for older versions of OS/2. The contract with IBM forbids it. Arca Noae has permission, from IBM, to distribute patched versions of the IBM software (the kernel, for example), but only for those who use ArcaOS. Nobody else has permission to do that, or to use the Arca Noae patched software. Others may do it, illegally, without drawing any interest from IBM, but Arca Noae must stick to the rules of the contract.

Wrong again:
 
The one and only thing that one might need and is "illegal" (in fact there is no need for) is the new Kernel 14.201 (14.200). Everything else can be replaced by using the Software Subscription or free available parts. And in addition my Warp 4.52 clone is not 1 by 1 ArcaOS as there are a lot of things I do not need.

i.e.: (everything what I am writing here is proofed and working!)

- For the loader I use the full QSINIT, wich gives the opportunity to load different config.sys and different kernels
- with older version of ACPI you can still use Kernel 14.106SMP
- even the newest ACPI works with that kernel, even if it then reduces the kernel to "One"
- even one can use this version with the latest OS/4 kernel and ACPI4 file, if one wants to have SMP, there is no need for the AN ACPI then
- for USB there are Lars Drivers, and so on and so on.
- AHCI, Network, Panorama ... are all included in the software subscription
- and, by the way, did you get your hands ever on Kernel 14.113b? Or did you ever heard of it?


RPM/YUM contains far more than just DLLs (and is outside of the IBM contract). Have you installed all of that too? RPM/YUM can be installed on older versions of OS/2 (I suggest using the free Arca Noae Package Manager, to make it much easier), and takes a big step toward getting OS/2 updated to run modern software. Doing that manually is a waste of time, and effort, because you are unlikely to get all of it installed correctly. Use the proper tools for the job, and you get a better end result, with a lot less work. Having said that, I will admit that I do not like RPM/YUM, but it is the tool that is provided, and it works until a user tries to outsmart it, or until somebody provides  a bad package (which hasn't happened to me, recently).

First of all, I do have no intention to persuade someone to do it the way I do it, it is just that this way is possible.

We have a good saying here in German (in fact it might be just translated from another language though):

Alle sagten: es geht nicht! Dann kam einer, der das nicht wusste und hat es gemacht.

And the fact, that YOU never tried it or never succeeded does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that it is not possible or does not make sence!

And no: I do not use ANPM with this clone anymore, I did it sometime before, but did not like the unix structure. Even if it is a simpler way to use these dlls.

If the result is better or not does depend on each users opinion as well. Your opinion is not a kind of "ordeal", and so is mine. For me the result is still better than what I get with ArcaOS (so far) as it is i.e. in German, I do not have a "Unix like tree", and everything works as expected, with the same problems with some hardware or applications I do have had with ArcaOS as well.

By the way: It takes me usually a maximum of two days, each 6 hours, to build an up to date OS/2 while starting from scratch (OS/2 4.52, aka MCP2), inlcuding the ability to install Samba, Samba Server, Warp Server and and and and....

Again, all the best to all of you!

« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 01:58:12 pm by Sigurd Fastenrath »

Jochen Schäfer

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2019, 10:23:05 am »
Hey guys.

Calm down. There is a reason, why I include all the necessary DLLs in the DOSBOX package.
That I once build a binary with a still experimental DLL was a slip.
Martin is helpfully pointing me to the new status of LIBCN.
What is not helpful is the bickering about the one true OS/2. You don't need RPM for DOSBOX.
BTW, if you get the newest LIBC from a non-RPM source and build against it, guess what, you are still needing LIBCN.

So, please stop it guys.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 11:04:45 am by Jochen Schäfer »

André Heldoorn

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2019, 02:14:31 pm »
He was speaking of the regular RPM repository.
I'm afraid you are overlooking the far more important "regular users". People.

In general not demoting such an innocent type of friendly, daily conversations is an efficient way to reduce the size of a whole community quickly. The happy few branding themselves as representatives of regular users. No Open Object Rexx for OS/2 is an example, or the reduced number of Italian users since IIRC an Italian eCS 1.2 and of course the underlying problem isn't his - if anything - open point of view. The reduced number of available OS languages is.

In a nutshell I'd recommend to not exclude OS/2 and relevant OS/2 hardware. A Korean Warp 4 with an informal, own FixPack, for example. With eCS 2.x DE the German speaking community still belongs to the happy few too. Good for you, brilliant, but please keep in mind that easily ignoring "regular users" is a great way to reduce the size of a community. It's quite normal to state that they aren't "regular users", as can be seen above. Actually those "regular users" will be the most up-to-date minority. Anything but regular.

AFAICT the appreciated DOSBox/2 works fine for the whole family of brands, without requiring tools of the happy few.

Jochen Schäfer

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2019, 03:13:22 pm »
Again, LIBCN works on most OS/2 versions, AFAIK. So DOSBOX will work with it.If I use LIBCN, I will include it.
So, please stop your crusade in this thread, because it's not approbiate in the case of DOSBOX.
Or, do you know breaking changes happening in LIBCN?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 03:15:32 pm by Jochen Schäfer »

Dave Yeo

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2019, 04:36:10 pm »
Again, LIBCN works on most OS/2 versions, AFAIK. So DOSBOX will work with it.If I use LIBCN, I will include it.
So, please stop your crusade in this thread, because it's not approbiate in the case of DOSBOX.
Or, do you know breaking changes happening in LIBCN?

The problem with including any version of libc, including LIBCN is that in a year, after LIBCN has been updated, a user might download your package and downgrade LIBCN and break other packages that depend on new functionality.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2019, 06:13:50 pm »
FYI: I split this topic.

PD: Today I'm drinking a "regular" size coke.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 06:23:08 pm by Martin Iturbide »
Martin Iturbide
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Martin Iturbide

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2019, 07:56:33 pm »
Hi

Maybe my mistake was to write "regular users" referring to the people that does not use the "Netlabs experimental RPM Repository", and use just the normal "netlabs RPM repository". For the record, I did not mean to say it as a pejorative or derogatory term, I usually don't use the experimental RPM repository on my OS/2-ArcaOS systems.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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Roderick Klein

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2019, 10:48:31 pm »
Again, LIBCN works on most OS/2 versions, AFAIK. So DOSBOX will work with it.If I use LIBCN, I will include it.
So, please stop your crusade in this thread, because it's not approbiate in the case of DOSBOX.
Or, do you know breaking changes happening in LIBCN?

The problem with including any version of libc, including LIBCN is that in a year, after LIBCN has been updated, a user might download your package and downgrade LIBCN and break other packages that depend on new functionality.

David his comment makes perfect sense.

If you would write a program on OS/2/ArcaOS that would not depend on the family of LIBC/GCC DLL's in the \USR\LIB. So it would use DOSCALL1.DLL or PMMERGE.DLL, would you include a version of that DLL in your ZIP with your application ?

I certainly would not hope so.  From my perspective it makes very little technicall sense.  Infact including a version of for example PMMERGE.DLL is potentially playing Russian roulette.  The fact files such as LIBCXX they do not come with the natve list of files IBM provides with the OS is not really an important point. By now the vast mayority of the software we port from Linux leans on these DLL's. It is in effect an set of new system DLL's badly needed to run pretty critical applications such as your browser and or mail client.

While I am certainly not a very big fan of YUM/RPM. As Silvan from BWW mentioned. They where loosing waay to much time on support because people could not get the proper DLL version installed. This is why they switched to an RPM only format. BWW just like most other developing software for OS/2 are short on time.

While its a free world it would be easier for deveopers to embrace the YUM/RPM system to update system DLL's.
Also people using your application could run into issue's with outdated DLL's.

Having been to local OS/2 usergroup meeting in Netherlands. Three people ran ANPM to update the DLL's.
That was a whole easier then fiddeling around with ZIP files.

Roderick


ivan

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Re: Discussion about RPM/YUM and Libcn
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2019, 10:51:09 pm »
Hi Dave,
Quote
The problem with including any version of libc, including LIBCN is that in a year, after LIBCN has been updated, a user might download your package and downgrade LIBCN and break other packages that depend on new functionality

The converse is also possible with the newer version breaking older programs - yes I know that those producing the new version can't test it against every program that uses it.  That is why I have always tried to put everything a program needs to run in the directory of the program  and run everything from there.

One possible workround would be to go the whole hog and use a program that makes a snapshot of the OS just as they do in Linux Mint, then if anything goes wrong everything can be restored to the previous working state.