Author Topic: Windows 10 and ArcaOS 5.x Dual Boot  (Read 16530 times)

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Windows 10 and ArcaOS 5.x Dual Boot
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2020, 05:13:29 pm »
Hi Martin,

If you don't have the hidden vfat uefi boot partition at the start of the disk I don't  think you will get win 10 to boot.

Does this also apply to the non UEFI Thinkpad L420 where I'm doing these tests?

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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ivan

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Re: Windows 10 and ArcaOS 5.x Dual Boot
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2020, 05:36:45 pm »
Having had a look at what is in that partition, it appears to be where the uefi key is stored - no key, no boot!  I assume if you have CSM set as active in the bios you can install without the uefi key and just use the first partition on the disk without there being a specific boot partition.

I have noticed that when I start the notebook there is a considerable pause before Zorin takes over the boot process which is very fast.  I assume the pause is the uefi bios looking for win 10 to boot and when it can't find it Zorin takes over.

We must remember that M$ have been pushing for win 10 to be the only OS on a computer for several years now, uefi bios being their main attack front, fortunately several motherboard manufactures are willing to keep the CSM option alive or we would be in big trouble.  Maybe if I could find a version of vBox host that actually runs on ArcaOS on a Ryzen based computer I could try win 10 and see what happens.

In reply to your question Martin, I suspect it does and am quite surprised that it installs and boots without a uefi bios on the machine.  I have heard of several people in the IT industry grumbling about older equipment no longer being able to boot win 10 so they have had to either get new units or have converted to Linux.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Windows 10 and ArcaOS 5.x Dual Boot
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2020, 06:56:44 pm »
Hi

Just in case here are the HDD partition logs from testlog.

Code: [Select]
----- Output of: lvm.exe /query ------------------------------------------------

Disk                 Size (MB) Free Space:  Total Largest
[ D1 ]                  715395                  0       0
   Disk Partition       Size (MB) Type     Status       Logical Volume
   Windows                 655385 Primary  In use       Windows             
   Disk2                    40006 Primary  In use       Disk2               
   ArcaOS                   20003 Logical  In use       ArcaOS             
[ D2 ]                      96                 96      96
   Disk Partition       Size (MB) Type     Status       Logical Volume
   [ FS1 ]                     96 Logical  Available                       
[ D3 ]                      96                 96      96
   Disk Partition       Size (MB) Type     Status       Logical Volume
   [ FS2 ]                     96 Logical  Available                       
[ D4 ]                      96                 96      96
   Disk Partition       Size (MB) Type     Status       Logical Volume
   [ FS3 ]                     96 Logical  Available                       
[ D5 ]                      96                 96      96
   Disk Partition       Size (MB) Type     Status       Logical Volume
   [ FS4 ]                     96 Logical  Available                       
[ D6 ]                      96                 96      96
   Disk Partition       Size (MB) Type     Status       Logical Volume
   [ FS5 ]                     96 Logical  Available                       
[ D7 ]                      96                 96      96
   Disk Partition       Size (MB) Type     Status       Logical Volume
   [ FS6 ]                     96 Logical  Available                       
[ D8 ]                      96                 96      96
   Disk Partition       Size (MB) Type     Status       Logical Volume
   [ FS7 ]                     96 Logical  Available                       
[ D9 ]                      96                 96      96
   Disk Partition       Size (MB) Type     Status       Logical Volume
   [ FS8 ]                     96 Logical  Available                       
----- Output of: X:\sys\INSTALL\dfsanos2.exe -B- -a -l- query#part -w ----------

DFSee  invocation : X:\SYS\INSTALL\DFSANOS2.EXE -B- -a -l- query#part -w
Working directory : X:\

DFSee OS/2   16.0 : executing: query
Number of disks   : 9

 BIOS-Geo D 1 Cyl :   16383 H: 16 S:63  Bps:512   Size:0x575466F0 =   698.6 GiB
 L-Geo Disk 1 Cyl :    45241 H:255 S:127 Bps:512   Size:0x57541B39 =   698.6 GiB
 MBR crc 6d51c774 : 0x50974e3b = Airboot BM, 09-11-2017 version 1.14 Lang:E, I13X

 L-Geo Disk 2 Cyl :      512 H: 12 S:32  Bps:512   Size:0x00030000 =    96.0 MiB
IGNORE disk 2 PD2 : MBR read failed, Reserved (USB) DUMMY, locked or BAD-sectors

 L-Geo Disk 3 Cyl :      512 H: 12 S:32  Bps:512   Size:0x00030000 =    96.0 MiB
IGNORE disk 3 PD3 : MBR read failed, Reserved (USB) DUMMY, locked or BAD-sectors

 L-Geo Disk 4 Cyl :      512 H: 12 S:32  Bps:512   Size:0x00030000 =    96.0 MiB
IGNORE disk 4 PD4 : MBR read failed, Reserved (USB) DUMMY, locked or BAD-sectors

 L-Geo Disk 5 Cyl :      512 H: 12 S:32  Bps:512   Size:0x00030000 =    96.0 MiB
IGNORE disk 5 PD5 : MBR read failed, Reserved (USB) DUMMY, locked or BAD-sectors

 L-Geo Disk 6 Cyl :      512 H: 12 S:32  Bps:512   Size:0x00030000 =    96.0 MiB
IGNORE disk 6 PD6 : MBR read failed, Reserved (USB) DUMMY, locked or BAD-sectors

 L-Geo Disk 7 Cyl :      512 H: 12 S:32  Bps:512   Size:0x00030000 =    96.0 MiB
IGNORE disk 7 PD7 : MBR read failed, Reserved (USB) DUMMY, locked or BAD-sectors

 L-Geo Disk 8 Cyl :      512 H: 12 S:32  Bps:512   Size:0x00030000 =    96.0 MiB
IGNORE disk 8 PD8 : MBR read failed, Reserved (USB) DUMMY, locked or BAD-sectors

 L-Geo Disk 9 Cyl :      512 H: 12 S:32  Bps:512   Size:0x00030000 =    96.0 MiB
IGNORE disk 9 PD9 : MBR read failed, Reserved (USB) DUMMY, locked or BAD-sectors

At least 2 non-trivial minor warnings were not shown. Use 'part -w:t -t-' for details.

 Id D A Dr Type Form Label info  LVM vol,part  Begin-cyl   End-cyl  Size MiB
 -- - - -- ---- ---- ----------- ------------- --------- --------- -----------
 01 1 > C: P 07 NTFS             Windows,Windo         0     41445    655385.1
 02 1   -d P 0c FAT3 SHARED      Disk2,Disk2       41446     43975     40006.9
 03 1   X: L 07 JFS  ARCAOS      ArcaOS,ArcaOS     43976     45240     20003.4
 04 1      Free                                    45241     45241         9.5
 -- - - -- ---- ---- ----------- ------------- --------- --------- -----------
      > = Active, * = Bootable, r = Removable, R = Removable+Active/Bootable (possibly)

DFSee OS/2   16.0 : executing: part -w
 Pid01=C: warning : Bootsector GEO Heads/Sectors fields do NOT match geometry!
                    It may be harmless, but when it seems to cause problems,
                    you can probably fix it by opening the partition and use
                    the FIXPBR command or the corresponding menu item being:
                    Mode=xxx -> Boot area fixes -> Fix HiddenSectors/Geo value
 EBR03=X: warning : A windows-compatible extended-partition type 0x0f is used,
                    Old operating systems might not see all logical partitions.
 Pid03=X: warning : Logical partition is marked as startable! (active)
ÚÄÄÄÂÄÄÂÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³ID ³ux³Dr³Type, description³Format  ³Related ³VolumeLabel³OS2-LVM/³  Size MiB ³
ÃÄÄ</dev/sda     MBR disk  1>ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ<[ D1 ]>ÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ´
³01>³ 1³C:³Prim 07 Inst-FSys³NTFS    ³Win NT  ³           ³Windows,³   655385.1³
³02 ³ 2³-d³Prim 0c FAT32-Ext³FAT32   ³MSWIN4.1³SHARED     ³Disk2, D³    40006.9³
³03 ³ 5³X:³Log  07 Inst-FSys³JFS     ³IBM 4.50³ARCAOS     ³ArcaOS, ³    20003.4³
³04 ³  ³  ³Partial Cylinder ³-- -- --³-- -- --³- - - - - -³        ³        9.5³
ÀÄÄÄÁÄÄÁÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ
   > = Active/Startable * = Bootable r = Removable R = Removable+Active/Bootable (possibly)
----- Drive List ---------------------------------------------------------------
Drive A:
Drive B:
Drive C: FS='UNKNOWN' Label='' Size=31.99 MiB Free=1.77 MiB Used=30.21 MiB
Drive D: FS='FAT32' Label='SHARED' Size=39.05 GiB Free=39.05 GiB Used=192.00 KiB
Drive S:
Drive T:
Drive X: FS='JFS' Label='ARCAOS' Size=19.50 GiB Free=18.36 GiB Used=1.13 GiB

I'm still trying to find out how to fix Windows 10 boot on this dual boot machine.

Regards
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 06:58:50 pm by Martin Iturbide »
Martin Iturbide
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ivan

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Re: Windows 10 and ArcaOS 5.x Dual Boot
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2020, 05:12:42 pm »
Hi Martin,

I'm all out of ideas if you need to use a partition on the same hard disk.  If you were using a desktop machine then there is one way that can be used but it requires two hard disks.  It also needs an SATA hot swop caddy but should work since you have to start the machine to start a new OS - as for sharing between OSs just use a large USB stick.

I suspect the above would also work with a dual hard disk notebook or one where you can put a floppy unit in place of the HD.  Who in their right mind voluntarily uses win 10?

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Re: Windows 10 and ArcaOS 5.x Dual Boot
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2020, 09:17:19 pm »
Hi

I had managed to get a dual boot system between Windows 10 and ArcaOS 5.x with AirBoot as boot manager. I followed this tutorial which is working very good. (Credit to Richard Dunkle). I also know the premise that you can not acomplish a dual boot on a "GUID Partition Table" HDD, so Windows 10 must on installed on MBR partition table.

But I want to try to understand and document more about the troubleshooting. My issue is that once you have dual boot some changes you made with LVM will break Windows 10 boot and some changes you do on Windows 10 may break ArcaOS Boot. And I had been a hard time trying to recover the dual boot state on the machine. Sometimes I need to resintall Win10 or ArcaOS.

I don't know if someone has more experience with it, and know what to do recover Windows 10 boot manager (or whatever it has), like boot from the USB Flash drive and running xyz commands (Diskpart? bcdedit? bootrec?). Also from the other side, what does Windows 10 does to ArcaOS that breaks it boots and if there is way to fix it (without reinstall).

Any tips are welcome.

Regards

An advice! I have yet installed ArcaOS and Windows 10 dual boot in more than one machine. Basically backing-up W10 partition with Seagate DiscWizard (light version of Acronis True Image, free for Seagate HDs owners and faster than DFSee), Partitioning HD for dual boot with ArcaOS lvm.exe from installation DVD and restoring W10 partition preserving MBR and track 0. Will be necessary adjustments in W10 partition with fixpbr and lvm DFSee comands and probably having to correct the boot.ini of W10. But after all, all works!

Now the advice! I have the bad idea to upgrade W10 to 2004 version.No problem I think. But I forget - I delete the restoring partition of W10. What happens - W10 2004 installation recreate the restore partition! I have to do all the process of dual boot again :(

Doug Bissett

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Re: Windows 10 and ArcaOS 5.x Dual Boot
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2020, 12:11:12 am »
I can't make much sense out of what you have been doing. I can say that there is NO PROBLEM with dual boot between win 10 and ArcaOS, IF you get both set up properly.

Some quick, and dirty instructions, that should work if you adjust sizes etc. to match your hardware:
Okay, start over, and do it this way:

1) (This may not apply, in all cases) To eliminate some confusion, disconnect the SSD drive (unplug power and signal cables from the drive). We will worry about that after you get the rest working.

2) Use the disk utility, in the ArcaOS installer, to wipe the HDD. Boot the installer, and go to System Management-> Disk-> Disk utility. It will probably show errors (but may say "No problems found"). Ignore that, and click Disk-> Wipe disk information-> All disk information. After that finishes it will tell you to reboot. Now, you effectively have a new disk, with nothing on it.

3) Reboot, and go to System Management again. Run the Disk Utility again. This time, it will find that there is no partitioning (or something like that) on the drive, and it will offer to fix it. Fix it, and it will tell you to reboot again.

4) Reboot, and go to System Management. Go to Disk-> Manage Volumes (Graphical), and make ALL of the partitions. This is a 2TB disk, so I suggest:

250 GB (no less than 150 GB) for win. Select drive letter "none". Label it "Windows". Use a primary partition, and bootable.

20 GB for FAT32. Select drive letter D:. Label it "FAT32". Use a logical partition, and bootable. Don't make this too big, or it may cause problems.

4 GB for the OS/2 dump partition (not required, but why not?) I use drive letter N:. Label it "SADUMP". Use a logical partition, and bootable.

4 GB for your ArcaOS boot drive. Pick a drive letter (I usually use C:). add a descriptive label. Use a logical partition, and bootable.

500 GB for your ArcaOS data volume (or larger if you like). Pick a drive letter, and add a descriptive label. Use a logical partition, and bootable (Advanced is not useful, unless you have a small disk, and want to expand a volume to a second disk).

Since you probably want an alternate OS/2 boot system:
4 GB for alternate boot system. Pick a drive letter (I usually use Y:). Add a descriptive label, and select to put it at the end of free space. Use a logical partition, and bootable.

Fill the rest with another partition, to save the space. Use drive letter "none". Use a logical partition, and bootable (this will be removed later, and can be used for other things, as long as it is all done by LVM).

Save, then add Air Boot.

Save and Exit. You should be back at System Management.

Reboot (ArcaOS-> Shut down, then Ctrl-Alt-Del). It should go to Air Boot. It should show every drive that was installed as bootable. You can clean that up later.

At this point, you can try installing windows (probably best to disconnect the internet while you do this, and use win 10). It should install to the the first primary partition, without complaining, but don't forget to FORMAT the target partition, before starting the install (there will be an option, where you select the target partition). You may (probably will) need to re-install Air Boot after getting windows installed.

WARNING: win 10 (and probably other versions) will turn on a setting that cause windows to sleep, rather than shut down completely. This causes two problems: One is that it will leave disks dirty (probably only noticeable with FAT32 drives), and if you modify anything in OS/2, windows will "correct" the "problem" when it starts up again. Second, some BIOS implementations are told that they should use the "Fast startup" feature, which will override Air Boot, and simply start windows. To fix those problems:

In windows, there is also a power option to use sleep mode, when you shut down. In win 10 (8 is probably similar), go to Settings-> System-> Power & sleep-> Additional power settings-> Choose what the power buttons do (left side)-> Click on "Change settings that are currently unavailable", and turn OFF "Turn on fast startup".

TIP: When installing windows, it will offer to connect you to the internet. Tell it you don't have internet, and continue with limited setup. That will stop windows from trying to connect you to most of their garbage. You can connect to the internet later. Also, decline to help them, when it asks multiple times.

If that works, install ArcaOS to the volume at the end of the drive (Y:). The installer will format it (it should default to JFS) after you select all of the install options. That should just work, and Air Boot should recognize it.

Now, you should be able to use Air Boot to select which OS to boot.

If all of that works, format the rest of the ArcaOS drives (including FAT32, and format the SADUMP partition as FAT32, IF you have ArcaOS 5.0.5. or later), and proceed with installing your main ArcaOS system.

Quote
Now the advice! I have the bad idea to upgrade W10 to 2004 version.

Not true, but DO NOT try to update a machine, until windows offers the update. Apparently, some older machines will not be offered the 2004 update (and later versions, I would assume). Restoring a 2004 version, to a machine that isn't capable of running it, is sure to cause problems with windows. You will probably have activation issues too.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Windows 10 and ArcaOS 5.x Dual Boot
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2020, 10:23:33 pm »
Thanks for the tips Doug. I will check how to include those on the wiki.

My issue is not that an dual boot with ArcaOS and Windows 10 is not possible. My issue is that my dual boot attempts results in fragile dual boot where Windows can screen ArcaOS and ArcaOS can screw Windows boot.

I noticed that sometimes in the Windows 10 installation, when it sees the JFS partition, it just reformat it as NTFS, wiping out ArcaOS. But right now I'm trying to find how ArcaOS (or maybe Air-boot) is disabling Windows 10 boot, and if there is a way to recover the W10 boot without reinstalling.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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Doug Bissett

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Re: Windows 10 and ArcaOS 5.x Dual Boot
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2020, 12:40:02 am »
Quote
My issue is not that an dual boot with ArcaOS and Windows 10 is not possible. My issue is that my dual boot attempts results in fragile dual boot where Windows can screen ArcaOS and ArcaOS can screw Windows boot.

If it is doing that, you have not properly set up one, or the other, or both.

Quote
I noticed that sometimes in the Windows 10 installation, when it sees the JFS partition, it just reformat it as NTFS, wiping out ArcaOS. But right now I'm trying to find how ArcaOS (or maybe Air-boot) is disabling Windows 10 boot, and if there is a way to recover the W10 boot without reinstalling.

Window doe NOT just reformat JFS partitions. It WILL sort of format EMPTY partitions, as FAT32, without telling you. Windows now assumes that an empty partition is FAT32.

ArcaOS, or Air Boot will NOT disable booting from windows. It may appear that it does, IF windows has the small boot partition, and you attempt to boot from the windows C: drive, because the boot stuff is in the small partition, not on the C: drive. You can change that, by using:
Code: [Select]
>NOTE: this only works when windows C: drive is a PRIMARY partition, It needs the hidden partition to boot indows from a LOGICAL partition.

In WINDOWS, boot to CMD, use Admin privilege.

Open a Command line, by selecting Start-> All programs->  Accessories-> RMB click on the Command Prompt item (might be Power  shell)-> Click on Run as administrator. The command line should open.

Type the command:
 bcdboot c:\windows /s c:
which will put the windows boot code onto the C: drive. You can then remove the, now unused, hidden boot partition.

Removing (or not using) the hidden boot partition will prevent you from installing windows "security" software, but few home users would even consider that.

If you wish to keep the hidden partition, use Air Boot to boot from it, to boot to windows.