Author Topic: ecs 2.2  (Read 78431 times)

mickhead

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2013, 05:55:43 pm »
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Well, it is just as easy, if you simply add a screen (can be a modern TV set, which most people have anyway, but could be any number of other things, that haven't been announced yet), a proper keyboard, and a mouse.

That's a point to consider. But still I try envision a corporate workflow where a graphic designer has a tablet and a desk full of peripherals as means to accomplish work. It's hard for me to see what the advantages are against a desktop computer. But who knows, stranger things have happened.

Doug Bissett

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2013, 06:22:17 pm »
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In my opinion it was the wrong decision not to concentrate on selected hardware.

That is a two way street. If you choose a hardware configuration, by the time you have it settled, and working, the hardware is no longer available, and nobody wants to buy it anyway, because there is newer stuff available. The only way to make that work, is to do it like Apple does. Go to the manufacturers, and get the very first devices off the production line, test them, and make them work, then buy 200,000 of them at the tail end of the production run (probably a special run, just for Apple). I doubt that Mensys (or anybody else), would be able to sell enough product to do that. Then, you have the problem where selected devices are not available in all countries, so you need to go through the procedure for alternate devices, after you figure out what is available. Of course, notebook computers really don't have replaceable parts, in a lot of cases.

In fact, I think that most OS/2 (eCS) users already choose carefully. Unfortunately, the manufacturers keep changing what is available, and sometimes things don't work out as expected.

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I tried to build an bootable USB stick using Linux, that automatically starts Linux and then OS/2 in a virtual machine.

When I first tried Linux Mint, I found out that it will install to a USB stick, so I did so. It works okay, but even USB 3.0 is pretty slow. I did not attempt to use VBox with that setup, but the (same) stick would boot on all of my "modern" machines, and managed to configure all of the devices. I only have one machine with a USB 3.0 adapter, and it worked okay. The rest, with USB 2.0, were painfully slow. After that, I put Linux Mint 15 cinnamon 64 onto my Lenovo ThinkPad L530, which was causing problems for native eCS. All of the devices work, and the speed is quite good. I then put VBox into that, and I have WinXP, eCS 2.1 and eCS 2.2 installed in it. The really surprising thing is that eCS boots about 50% faster in VBox, than it does in the real machine (that by itself causes boot problems). ECS performance is comparable to the real machine, and it seems to work okay, but I haven't used it much. I have not tried to make eCS start automatically at boot, but it should be possible.  The difficult part, so far, has been to figure out Linux, and all of the new rules (not to mention having to enter the mandatory password about every 5th time I try to do something).

This exercise did point out what I said earlier. There is no point in trying to run something like Firefox, or VLC, in VBox, under Linux. Both work better in the native Linux environment (which is running anyway). I have been playing with that configuration, but I am still not convinced that Linux is ready for prime time. Some other distro might be better, but it would take a couple of months, doing nothing else, to check them all out. FWIW, Linux Mint is the first Linux, that I have tried, that sort of works, for me.

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I really believe there are *a lot* of WPS classes that could be replaced/developed by basic to medium-skilled programmers but, as it happens to myself, they just have no time to figure out how to start.

That is one of the problems. Programing the WPS is a little different, and there is a learning curve. I would expect that once you figure out the basics, that it is not that difficult, after all, I seem to recall that Ulrich Möller is (was?) a lawyer, not a programer (perhaps tat is the secret). I think that the ultimate example of WPS programing is XWorkPlace (eWorkPlace is a subset of that). XWorkPlace is, of course, (mostly) just an extension of the WPS classes, not a complete replacement (although you CAN just replace an individual class). Perhaps that would be a place to start.

In fact, now that I think of it, XWorkPlace is really a good beginning to Martin's idea. What is a little different is that he seems to want to replace the root classes with something new, rather than just use the object oriented interface to fix, change, or replace the root classes. XWorkPlace could definitely use a bit of tweaking. The most annoying thing is that it shows a file size of 1 byte, for all files that are bigger than 2 GB. I suspect that that is caused by using the REXX DLLs, because REXX has the same problem.

Doug Bissett

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2013, 07:01:35 pm »
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That's a point to consider. But still I try envision a corporate workflow where a graphic designer has a tablet and a desk full of peripherals as means to accomplish work. It's hard for me to see what the advantages are against a desktop computer. But who knows, stranger things have happened.

There isn't a lot of difference between using a tablet, with a bunch of peripherals, and using a desktop, with the same peripherals. The brain box is just a little smaller, physically. It is done a lot now, using a laptop as the brain box. When the price of a desktop exceeds the price of a tablet (or even a cell phone), and they will do the same thing, why would anyone want to use a desktop? That will reduce demand for the desktop even further, the price will go up, and demand will fall again. It won't take long before desktops price themselves out of the market. Somebody may continue to make one, for those who can afford it, and have some need (that I can't even imagine), but they won't be something that the average user will be willing to buy.

Check out: http://www.linuxmint.com/store_mintbox.php. This appears to be a full blown computer. It runs Linux Mint, by default, but the specs look like it should be able to run eCS (although using the DataPort, or HDMI, for the display may prove to be a problem - I have not been able to get eCS to use the dataport on my Lenovo ThinkPad L530, or my Lenovo ThinkPad T510). Worst case, would be to run eCS, in a VBox, under Linux Mint (which seems to work okay in my Lenovo ThinkPad L530).

Andi B.

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2013, 10:43:25 am »
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....The brain box is just a little smaller, physically...
This is the reason (smaller) why your next sentence -
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...When the price of a desktop exceeds the price of a tablet (or even a cell phone), and they will do the same thing, why would anyone want to use a desktop?....
will never come true in foreseeable future. At least when comparing nearly same performance. As physically smaller at same computing power is more expensive. Compare your notbook power with a same priced desktop system. This relation did not and will not change future.

And no computing power will never ever be high enough to satisfy user demands. Except for eCS users maybe. But not for any serious programming, art, cad.... work.

Alex Taylor

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2013, 12:04:17 pm »
Tablets and smartphones (and other, possibly yet-to-be-commercialized devices) will almost certainly replace desktop computers within the demographic that uses a computer as an appliance: that is, for word processing, web browsing, email/social media, simple home accounting and (up to a point) games.

However, real computers/workstations will remain essential for other groups. People who need to do programming and development, for example.  Any setting where serious computing power and serious amounts of local storage are necessary.

Computers used to be loosely organized into three different levels: servers for back-room processing, workstations for serious work requiring serious hardware, and end-user devices. Since the mid 1980s the end-user segment has evolved from dumb terminals into powerful machines in their own right, and as a result it's gradually converged with the workstation segment to the point where the two haven't really been distinguishable for about the past 15 years or so.

What we will probably see is tablets and smartphones take over the end-user segment, and desktop computers will retreat back exclusively into the workstation segment.

Ben

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2013, 01:14:49 pm »
Well,
Let´s try something constructive, based on my personal perspective.

I am a developer, with good OS/2 PM and OO programming background, but I have never been able to build a single working WPS Class. The real question here is: why?

*snip!*...

Sorry if I am asking too much, but we are at a draw. Most core-OS/2 developers are already commited to important life-support OS/2 development - and I believe this is the best they can do to help OS/2 platform; if the community can benefit from WPS development, this should be done by those who are not actively programming for OS/2, but are able to do so. This "let´s do some WPS programming tutorial" would be, IMHO, a great step into this direction.

My kindest regards,

Daniel Caetano

Daniel, I think of your post as being a step in the right direction, but the problem is in unifying the others out there like you who have something to contribute and are willing, yet do not possess all that is required to act independently.

Scattered amongst the OS/2 community, are people with skills, (some partial), that they take from their professional lives, or have developed, (albeit incompletely), on their own; the OS/2 community tends to have more intelligent, skilled and able users on the average, as compared with other OS communities.

But, taking these jigsaw pieces and putting them together into something practical, is the obstacle as I see it at present. There are other, more qualified, people but, as was said, they are already maximized and cannot be spared from their present commitments.

Martin is attempting to solve this problem and provide the necessaries to attract those scattered people and at least get the ball rolling! Once the right number of people have pulled together and become familiar with each other and strengthen the knowledge base that Martin has started, I cannot see why more would not come of it.

But, people have short attention spans and are easily distracted from the topic... as this thread demonstrates in a real-life, living-example, as the messages pass through a barrage of segues like Retilin-riddled Music Video watchers, their fodder being filled with flash and shattered sequences, but containing little of substance or depth.

Or, (if you'd rather), like a drunken archer with poor eyesight who can no longer hit the target.

It is not a wonder then, that nothing gets accomplished in this forum... despite the best intentions of a coherent few.

Yet, if those coherent few did not take the effort and were not coherent, there would be no puddle for the video watchers to splash in.

Maybe a few others like yourself who would rather not see the demise of OS/2 and can wade through the segues of this thread, will take this opportunity to present themselves then Martin's efforts and your offer, will not have been for naught.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 01:17:27 pm by Ben »

Martin Iturbide

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2013, 02:05:04 pm »
Hi Daniel

I understand your worries about WPS. I had been collecting all information I can find out it on EDM/2. Please also notice that I had found a formal procedure for IBM to give me permission to repost material on this Wiki. 

There is a work left to review and rewrite (which is legal to create derivative work) some article from the EDM/2 wiki. I'm not an OS/2 developer but I'm starting to read about it.

I think we need to document more, provide examples, (or rewrite already created examples). Possible trying to make a tutorial of the "car" WPS example updated as today, with the old sc.exe compiler (required for SOM/WPS) and possible a newer GCC or OpenWatcom.

I'm starting reading "WPS Programming the Easy Way by Frank Matthijs" but I'm noticing that since it was on wrote on 1994 it is not using the latest "terms" about WPS programming. But I want to give it a try.

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Martin Iturbide
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Andi B.

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2013, 04:12:14 pm »
Although off topic I want to add to Daniels post -
he pointed out the problem about non-existent and if existent than much to often wrong information material. Moreover we have to struggle with outdated closed source and buggy software tools for building WPS extensions/classes.

Remember the different rc versions we have and every one has different quirks. Don't want to know what problems you run into when stressing the som compiler. ICC3.08/3.65 which we use to build xwp misses some newer c/c++ extensions we are used to use with other tool chains. Nmake sometimes does not honor all environment settings it should and even worse eats up some OS/2 resources (maybe in collaboration with RC and ICC and SOM....) that forces you to reboot every 10-20th compilation process. Even our best programmers editor VisualSlick Edit is more than 10 years outdated and you're running into nice troubles with todays big projects.

And these tools are all closed source so we can not repair them. You have to have some masochism to wast your spare time with such tools.

Given that and the fact that only a handful developers are out there who can give and are willing to give help in the few newsgroups which are still alive you hardly can attract new programmers to our platform. Especially not the young ones.

How to change the situation? I don't know. But fear it needs more than a few individuals even if they are willing to invest a lot of their time.

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2013, 05:45:57 pm »
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In my opinion it was the wrong decision not to concentrate on selected hardware.

That is a two way street. If you choose a hardware configuration, by the time you have it settled, and working, the hardware is no longer available, and nobody wants to buy it anyway, because there is newer stuff available. .

Hi Doug,

as I am preparing for the User Meeting in Cologne I would like to give you one example why I still am of the opinion that concentrating on selected Hardware would have been the best and only possible choice:

The X200t I use from Lenovo:

- first models have been availiable in 2009
- you can still buy them for reasonable prices
- you can get all (Windows) Drivers from the Lenovo Homepage ever since

In 2009 I bought my first one, it took me a lot of time and help to figure out how to get the hardware supported best by eComstation and OS/2.
Finally in 2010 I reached the goal with a lot of help from the community.

Almost EVERYTHING was and is working since:

- ACPI
- AHCI
- Sound
- Grafic with Snap
- LAN
- WLAN (with an easy to patch BIOS and repalcing Intel 4965 WLAN card)
- UMTS / HSPA (!)
- USB
- Card Reader
- the Stylus
- the Touch (but I do not have a touch model)
...

I do not know if there is another "modern Laptop" since than around that is that stable and well supported!

There is a big variety of X200T models, meanwhile I sold mine in early 2012 - but later I discovered that I probably will never find one Laptop with that abilities again.

So this summer I bought one from ebay that was marked as "used" but it has never been used before, the only  thing was that the box has been opened before.

So I bought it, patched the BIOS, replaced the WLAN and restored my Clone on it - and it was up and running from the first second on!

So - this is running already for more than four years now.

It is still the best choice (if you do not need the Tablet one can choose the X200 as well, the same should work with the T400 and T500 series...) for an eComStation Laptop I guess.

Imagine what could have been, if....

But - what shells :-)

Alex Taylor

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2013, 10:21:59 am »
Agree 100% with Daniel's post.

Last year I sat down to try and learn how to write a simple WPS class.  My objective: create a subclass of WPFolder which added a single new item to its standard context menu.  After puzzling through several confusing tutorials on EDM/2 which were clearly written for older versions of SOM, I eventually created something which I didn't entirely understand but which at least compiled and showed up as a new WPS class.  However, it did nothing.  No new menu item.  I could find no information about how to debug or diagnose it, or where to look for more information.  Disheartened, I just gave up and shelved it.  I no longer have the time or the motivation to dig into it any more.

These are the barriers that face anyone trying to get into WPS development.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2013, 05:30:58 pm »
Hi Alex.

I think we can build up a more decent WPS documentation with the things that we have on EDM/2.  Remember that the good thing of EDM/2 is that we can do derivative work of the articles posted there.

It is complete legal to improve/update that articles and try to help others to get involved in WPS. I know it takes time and it hard to people to write articles about OS/2 development this days, but that is what we have today. We don't have to start from scratch.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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