Author Topic: ecs 2.2  (Read 79564 times)

Martin Iturbide

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2013, 02:52:06 am »
Please check the first 30 minutes of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVXt_dELZNo

See how this projects started, and now they have VMs with an Windows open source clone. It is not impossible.
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Doug Bissett

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2013, 04:34:26 am »
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'm focused on an Open Source OS/2 because we need to grow the community and keep the continuity of the platform. I think that one of the stoppers to make an OS/2 clone is that OS/2 is still working fine today, so nobody wants to touch the things that keep working.

Open source is not that important. I agree that any new work should be open source, but I don't see a problem with using closed source parts, as long as they work. You are partly right, that nobody wants to touch the parts that are working, but another part of that is that there are a number of areas that nobody knows anything about. It would be very difficult to build a TV set, if you don't know anything but carpentry. You would end up with a great cabinet, but could you watch TV shows on it?  Today, it is difficult to get anybody to work on something that might require some knowledge of assembler, simply because nobody does that any more. I also don't see much hope that anybody who is taking a course in computer programming will ever hear that there is a language called assembler, never mind learn how to use it.

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That why we need a long term strategy, we need to make OS/2 accessible to everyone and ensure its life beyond IBM

I think the main problem with that is, that OS/2 has already survived for the "long term". Many good programmers have moved on, simply because they have lost interest. Many users have also moved on, simply because OS/2 (as eCS) simply cannot do what needs to be done. If you start to pull the programmers that are left, off of the life support projects, it will be all over, before the first beta of whatever they decide to work on, becomes available for testing. So, I guess there is a choice to be made. Continue, more or less, as we have been doing, and hope for the best, or start to port the WPS to another platform (some sort of Linux base, I would assume). As you acknowledge, it would be a long term project, but OS/2 is already gasping for breath because there are not enough people working on it, and those who are working on it don't have the time to do anything else. If the WPS is not ported to another platform, there will be nothing left to run it on, by the time it exists. A lot of time, and effort, has already been expended, to make the desktop look better. From what I have seen, so far, it was a wasted effort, with little value. Meanwhile, we can't even connect to the internet, using modern WiFi devices. There will be very few people attracted to eCS without WiFi support. Bluetooth, and WLAN (among other things), are not far behind.

Don't get me wrong, I like your idea, but one must look at reality, and say "good thought", but it isn't going to happen, unless more than one person wins the BIG jackpot, and donates it all to the cause. The only other possibilities would be that IBM would wake up, and take it back, or that Microsoft would wade in and do the job (yeah, okay...). Believing in any of those possibilities would be considered to be delusional, and could get you locked away, in a padded room, for your own protection. Then, there is the migration to portable devices. We can't even get drivers for a lot of the new I/O. In another few years, <speculation> the boxes that we call "desktops", will house the new super computers, and people will be wearing watches that do ten times what today's desktops, cell phones, etc. can do </speculation>. I suspect that the WPS will be just as obsolete as video tape has become. What is left will still work, but nobody will actually want to use it any more. Meanwhile, with careful allocation of resources, we can keep what we have going, for a while. OS/2 has already had a remarkable run, but all good things come to an end, eventually, and the usual cause of their demise, is something better. From what I have seen, I think that Linux has finally matured enough to be usable. In a few more years, it will probably take over, and surpass OS/2 (it has already gone past windows, IMO). It is also the ultimate example of open source, which seems to be something that you want to see.

Meanwhile, I think that Mensys has been doing a reasonable job of continuing the life of the product, even if they don't seem to have much of an idea about quality control, or project management. They have been making the tough decisions (right or wrong), and they seem to be making enough money to cover the costs, even if it isn't enough to do the "big push forward". Most users are along for the ride, and continue to use eCS because it does what they need to have done. When eCS fails to do what is necessary, or when something better comes along, they will be off the train.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2013, 01:56:14 pm »
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Open source is not that important. I agree that any new work should be open source, but I don't see a problem with using closed source parts, as long as they work.

I disagreed with that. The close source components that are working now are called "Abandomware". There are no possibility to expand or improve them. IBM has dumped us and they don't want to give us the source code to keep improving it under our own risk.  IBM has the source and the rights of it. if eCS stops selling and IBM decide to turn off the contract with Mensys we are done. ...again :)

If the author (IBM) is not working on the software, they solely own the code, it is close source and does not gives a way to create derivative work, it is perceived as a dead project and people will not buy it and developers will not invest on it. On Windows and Linux you don't perceive it that way, because Windows has a good marketshare and Linux is open source (so it does not depends on a single development group)

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Continue, more or less, as we have been doing, and hope for the best, or start to port the WPS to another platform (some sort of Linux base, I would assume). As you acknowledge, it would be a long term project...
...I really don't mind if WPS gets ported to other platform. But today we don't have anything. If we start making an open source clone of WPS Classes today at least there will be a chance to port it later to other platforms if needed/wanted.

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Don't get me wrong, I like your idea, but one must look at reality...
I think that going after open source WPS classes is a good way to start and it is based on the reality. Please notice that it is not impossible, check ReactOS, check Haiku OS. We only need to show some progress and it will snowball, there will be more people willing to join.

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...and could get you locked away, in a padded room, for your own protection.
Came on Doug. I had been posting OS/2 news for 12 years and haven't received a cent. I do this for fun, if the discussion gets to nasty or if it starts to make problem with my family I will pause or stop this at once. Please notice that I understand that my family is first, I'm not that crazy ... yet :)

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OS/2 has already had a remarkable run, but all good things come to an end, eventually, and the usual cause of their demise, is something better. From what I have seen, I think that Linux has finally matured enough to be usable. In a few more years, it will probably take over, and surpass OS/2 (it has already gone past windows, IMO). It is also the ultimate example of open source, which seems to be something that you want to see.
Linux/Windows are today a better alternative to OS/2, that's is why it is hard to convince new people to join. Windows has all the drivers and a big installed base. Linux is free, open source and can be turned into everything.

But we are the OS/2 community, The people that putted their arms down and said it is over and said someday this is going to end already left this community.
We are the only ones left, we are the only survivors and we want to keep going with this platform.

Why don't we do anything about it?
There is the plan to keep patching it until it will be no longer possible. My suggestion is to start working to replace WPS classes over eComStation/Warp 4.5 and in the future move on to SOM and PM.

With PM/SOM/WPS open sourced we will have almost the OS/2 spirit opened and that will bring attention to our community. And it will show that we have  chance of surviving.

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Meanwhile, I think that Mensys has been doing a reasonable job of continuing the life of the product,
I don't disagreed with this. But their business model is very volatile. I agreed that they keep selling license and re-invest on the product as long as it is a good business. But my personal opinion is that they need to think in the future and start replacing OS/2 with open source components more aggressively. Once day the selling license business will fall and IBM will close they agreement if it is not profitable (that's the way they work).  I thank Mensys for all their investment in open source software (Qt4, OpenJDK, AHCI, Mozilla, etc).... but I just try to see more into the future.


There is phrase I'm quoting.

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"Can it be done? I don’t know. But if you don’t set a goal, you won’t start moving towards it."


About WPS Clonning:
- Let's make every little effort to sum on WPS clonning. (Wiki documentation in 5 minutes at day, checking XWorkplace code, reading about WPS to understand it better).
- Lets start checking what already we have on XWorkplace and other open source projects.
- Lets start making a 100% replacement on this class and keep adding more.

EDM/2 has very good articles to help us start with this and I'm not just reading, I'm posting back to it when I have 5 minutes of time, lets sum up.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2013, 06:37:14 pm »
1) eCS is situated in other conditions. Different financial situation, different agreements, different market.
So, we have other way.


2) It's difficult compare eCS with Haiku or Linux.

* Linux is supported by large corporations: IBM, ..

* IMHO, eComStation way of development was more effective than Haiku's method of development. We got ACPI early.
We have the market of shareware products.


3) We (all users) support your activity in collection of source code, negotiations regarding abandonware.
But I repeat again, IMHO, eCS will stay semi-commercial (in the next 3 years).


Martin Iturbide

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2013, 07:11:32 pm »
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But I repeat again, IMHO, eCS will stay semi-commercial (in the next 3 years).

What is going to happen after 3 years? I don't find it nice to say "lets see what happens".  Let's make the plan today for a long term strategy. Let's start working on making an open source WPS class replacement today.
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Doug Bissett

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2013, 10:16:56 pm »
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What is going to happen after 3 years? I don't find it nice to say "lets see what happens".  Let's make the plan today for a long term strategy. Let's start working on making an open source WPS class replacement today.

If you take enough developers out of the development pool to do that, eCS won't run on any new hardware in 3 years. It is already having trouble running on a lot of new hardware, and the developers are going flat out, trying to fix that problem. ECS will continue to run on older hardware, which should be okay for those who continue to use it, until they need a new machine, or some function that doesn't work.

I expect that eCS, in it's current form, will last long enough to see the demise of the desktop computer. To adapt it to things like the iPad, or cell phones, would be an even bigger project than what you envision. Even Microsoft is struggling with that one. If there is no hardware that will run OS/2, there is no OS to run the WPS, new or old. What runs today, will continue to run, but OS/2 has hit critical mass. There are not enough users to support new development, other than to develop a few drivers, and we are not likely to attract new users, if eCS won't run on new hardware. The WPS itself, is not going to save OS/2. What is becoming very evident, is that the only way forward is to concentrate on making eCS work in virtual machines. Virtual machines already add a lot of overhead to running OS/2 (or any other OS), but it will also become evident that there is no point in running something like Firefox (or any other program that has been ported from the host OS environment) in a virtual machine, when it runs at least as well (and probably better) in the host OS (windows, or Linux). That leaves a few "special" programs, written specifically for OS/2, that need to run in the OS/2 environment, and there are not a lot of them that depend on the WPS. Almost all recent development has concentrated on porting programs from other environments (usually Linux), with varying results. By doing that, there is becoming less reason to actually use OS/2, and none of them use the WPS. It is a self defeating strategy, but following your plan will kill it faster, simply because there will be nobody left to work on the basics.

As I have said before, all good things eventually come to an end. OS/2 has had a good run, and it can be useful for some time yet, but it will come to an end. Unfortunately, the end is in sight. Not because eCS doesn't look modern (or other silly considerations), but because the whole desktop, and laptop, platform is coming to an end. It would not be possible for anyone less than IBM, or Microsoft, to make all of the necessary changes to adapt to that reality, in time for it to happen. Linux will survive, simply because it is already the OS for the new devices, and Microsoft is moving that way, as fast as they can. PC sales, world wide, have dropped drastically in the last few years. Once they become more expensive to produce, than the hand held devices, they will quickly disappear. 3 years? Maybe 5, but not much more than that. ECS will live on in older hardware, and in virtual machines, but there will be no new software developed (the "killer app" if you like) that would be likely to cause enough excitement to save the whole thing. Those companies that are still supporting eCS are not going to develop new software for eCS. Once enough new stuff is developed for other platforms, eCS will become redundant, and it will simply be abandoned, as DOS has been abandoned. There is nothing wrong with DOS, it simply can't do the job any more. Pretty soon, OS/2 will be in that same position, whether the WPS has been rebuilt, or not.

So, the only real option, is to keep it going as long as possible, but that means concentrating the talent where it can do some good, in the short term. Taking resources from that path will simply make it die faster. If you can get some interest from the Linux community, to develop a new WPS for Linux (IBM might be interested, but I suspect that they would have done it by now, if they were), go for it, but don't count on doing it for OS/2. I think you will find that the Linux community is already divided over how to do such things, and they won't be very interested in adding another path. They too are struggling with the new reality of hand held devices.

Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2013, 11:00:16 pm »
To Martin:

XWorkPlace (eWorkPlace) was developed on eCS money. It's open-source because all efforts of the developer were compensated.

We have created several WPS classes (NeoWPS extenders) . But nobody is interested buy out this modules and make them open-source.
We can't open source as is because we have spend many efforts and resources and didn't returned the investments.
Who will pay for open-source WPS classes? There is no sponsor or service providers (as I said in previous messages).
The developer which will create new class or extender will publish it as shareware. There is no other way to compensate the efforts.


To Doug:
The market of communicators and tablets is a separate market. Huge but different market. Desktop computers and notebooks will not disappear.


« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 11:02:50 pm by Eugene Gorbunoff »

mickhead

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2013, 11:13:06 pm »
I sometimes hear people say that "desktops and laptops will one day go away". I can't take this notion seriously. It's an overstatement in the sense that the market for these users may shrink compared to users who solely wish to consume, but there will always be people who use desktops and laptops. Ever try to update a website using a tablet? Do desktop publishing on 7 inch screen? Create graphics? It doesn't work that well.

Whether the remaining desktop and laptop users are enough to support eComStation in the long run, I don't know.

Doug Bissett

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2013, 01:51:58 am »
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Ever try to update a website using a tablet? Do desktop publishing on 7 inch screen? Create graphics? It doesn't work that well.

Well, it is just as easy, if you simply add a screen (can be a modern TV set, which most people have anyway, but could be any number of other things, that haven't been announced yet), a proper keyboard, and a mouse. Beside that, what makes you think that people will be using the current generation of screens? Look at what Google has done to a pair of glasses. Throw in voice recognition, and a bit of artificial intelligence, and you no longer have the current restrictions. It all needs software support though.

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The market of communicators and tablets is a separate market. Huge but different market. Desktop computers and notebooks will not disappear.

I think you are wrong. Why would anyone want a desktop system, when they can have something that is just as powerful, more common, better supported, and probably a lot cheaper? As I said above, add a screen, keyboard, and mouse, and you have what we call a desktop today. You also have a portable device, when you want it. Today, they are separate markets. Very soon, it will be one market. It wasn't all that long ago that the digital camera market was separated from the cell phone market. There are still high end cameras (supported mostly by those who want/need special lenses), but cell phones now take pictures that are just as good as the cheaper cameras take. The result is that cheaper cameras are not selling very well (if they still exist). Technology moves on, eCS cannot move fast enough to keep up. Business is out to make money. Making, and selling, 1000 desktops, or laptops, will not make any money for any company that tries it, they need large volumes, or they need to charge a LOT more for each unit. The market will be gone. When the market is gone, the product also goes away, and that is already happening. Whether it is a good thing, or not, remains to be seen, but it will happen.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2013, 02:34:42 am »
XWorkPlace (eWorkPlace) was developed on eCS money. It's open-source because all efforts of the developer were compensated.

Eugene, Please don't try to rewrite history.  Please read: http://www.os2ezine.com/v4n4/open.htm

Ulrich Möllers is the one to thank about XWorkplace turning open source. eCS money was used to fix some bugs on it, but Ulrich is the one you have to thank we have that software on eComStation.  If XWorkplace, OpenOffice, Firefox, WarpIn wouldn't be open source you will not have it on eCS today.

Please respect the authors of open source software.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 02:40:00 am by Martin Iturbide »
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Martin Iturbide

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2013, 02:38:20 am »
Doug, there is no problem if you don't share to open up WPS classes, you have a valid opinion but I don't share it.

I think if we make OS/2 free and available to the public (by creating an open source clone) it will be easier to attract more users to get more hardware working on it.  While we suffers for the little developers resources we have, we don't see on the other side how to attract other ones.

Sorry, but I will keep trying.

Thanks for the feedback Doug. 
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Ben

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2013, 02:50:49 am »
What amazes me now and what has always amazed me, is how much effort people will put into tearing a construction down or in seeing that it never starts.

Yet, these same people will put zero effort into helping that construction... be it... whatever.

If someone, (or every one), does not believe in the creation of something, just leave it alone and it will die a death of neglect.

What amazes me is not that people do this, but that people do this as a whole. And they will do it even if their efforts amounts to self abuse!.. as it often does.

The illusion that school-book history gives us is that people band together to create something large in times of need. The reality is that people pull together to tear apart.



But why does this happen?

It happens because the people that put so much effort into tearing something down are serving their own personal agendas that they keep hidden. Most often these agendas are to serve petty needs, (nothing grandiose going on  here), and not even to serve a competitive construction; the preference of one path over another.

I personally would have OS/2 continue on for a long time... past my death even. I could care less about all of the reasons why no one sees this happening; it matters not one whit!

However, if I -in whatever small way- wanted to put some effort into one side or the other, it would without a doubt! be on the constructive side.



What does all that mean?

If means if you want to see OS/2 continue, then why not put your efforts into solving problems rather than displaying them as personal triumphs of intellect when they are merely the inflation of obstacles which serve no productive cause... time for those people to have a look inside and to ask themselves why they do it! They know why. But they will never touch it!


Martin has provided an excellent opportunity to brainstorm, (in the modern sense of the term), on possible solutions to the impending demise of our favourite OS.

Such an opportunity would seem to me to be... desperately... needed and more than a little welcomed... by us as a whole


If anyone does not want OS/2 to survive then start your trek now! and stop trying to halt Martin's present instigation and past/present voluntary work... which has been -in case anyone has  not noticed over the past years- in trying to lay the ground work to help keep OS/2 alive!



From me personally Martin, I say THANKS!                    (FYI: Purple is the colour of royalty.)

I may not have written much on your work over the years, but do not think that I haven't noticed.


Unfortunately I do not, (at least at this point), have much to contribute, but I have made it clear where I stand and where I will put my efforts, by the typing of this message.

Keep at it!

Do not let the nay-sayers drag you down! If enough good people want it, it WILL happen!

Paul Smedley

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2013, 07:59:03 am »
XWorkPlace (eWorkPlace) was developed on eCS money. It's open-source because all efforts of the developer were compensated.

what a load of rubbish. Ulrich Moeller did the bulk of development, and made it open source. Paul Ratcliffe has supported it since Ulrich departed. To the best of my knowledge, neither of these guys were paid a cent from eCS money.

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2013, 08:53:58 am »
To Martin:

XWorkPlace (eWorkPlace) was developed on eCS money. It's open-source because all efforts of the developer were compensated.

We have created several WPS classes (NeoWPS extenders) . But nobody is interested buy out this modules and make them open-source.
We can't open source as is because we have spend many efforts and resources and didn't returned the investments.
Who will pay for open-source WPS classes? There is no sponsor or service providers (as I said in previous messages).
The developer which will create new class or extender will publish it as shareware. There is no other way to compensate the efforts.


To Doug:
The market of communicators and tablets is a separate market. Huge but different market. Desktop computers and notebooks will not disappear.

It is really a shame. As mentioned earlier Ulrich Möller did it almost all - for free. So no wonder - How can business (ecs.ru) be taken serious if telling this crazy fairy tales?

And there is no wonder that no one would want to pay for the Neo WPS Extenders - simply as these things make eComStation instable. And yes, I can proof that as I have eComStation 2.2 on the one and and OS/2 Merlin 4.52 without all ecosoftware in it but the most new drivers on the other hand. Unfortunately the Splitview and other "enhancements" of eCS 2.2 just messed the WPS up for me. On the other hand there have been such good improvements like ACPI, AHCI and so on, but...

In my personal opinion all are right here (well not all but..  ::) :P ):

- OS/2 - eCS in the actual presentation will come to an end
- workstation and Laptops will be reduced, but I doubt those will vanish
- OS/2 - eCS will possibly survive in an virtual enviroment - but I doubt there is much demand for this other than
  a.) playing aorund with OS
  b.) remembering the good old days
  c.) some have critical applications that MUST run OS/2
-> I guess those with c.) almost changed to an virtual enviroment

Martins idea is really great, Doug is in my opinion realistic (a bit hard I guess) and Ben is taking it to serious, I fear  ;) - as this is just an discussion and as Martin stressed before - something I can fully support and have said often before - there is really something more important than Operating System on earth ::)

In my opinion it was the wrong decision not to concentrate on selected hardware. On the other hand - if you choose the wrong hardware - remebering IBMs Power PC and OS/2 for Power PC - it would not have helped that much. But may have settled a small market share. And trust in future developement.

What I tried to do and was working on for some month in 2011 - with some kind of result, that did not satisfied me though - was that idea:

I tried to build an bootable USB stick using Linux, that automatically starts Linux and then OS/2 in a virtual machine. So that it can use Linux drivers for all the hardware and pass it through via Virtualbox to OS/2, with hiding Linux as good as possible.

What do you think: would it be possible to try to make it that way?

Building an automatically process that is starting Linux (not only with an USB stick, with all media, a laptop, an desktop...) hiding a Linux shell, automatically starting a virtual enviroment (like Virtualbox, Vmware Palayer or whatever) and starting the WPS in it?

EXAMPLE GIVEN: some time ago I installed eCS 2.1 in a virtual machine with my Samsung Serie 7 Slate PC; but here running inside Windows 7. The result was that I was able to use the Hardware with eCS 2 that will never be supported there:
- the On screen drivers for finger and touch (but later Wim was so kind to write the drivers for eCS)
- the bluetooth keyboard
-> almost everything

This path would benefit:

- those who want to run eCS in a virtual machine (as eCs will be tailored for this)
- those who have to write device drivers - as these are given with the underliying Linux
... and so on

What I would like to prefer is (but I guess more complicated?): Porting the WPS with its whole look and feel to Linux, so that one can choose it as its desktop envrioment like KDE or GNOME today. But if I understand correctly what I have read about this idea before is that this task may be to hard?

One last thing: If you would like to discuss about the future of eCS with other users from face to face (as this often protects from misunderstanding) take the chance to come to Cologne in almost two weeks!  8)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 09:48:09 am by Sigurd Fastenrath »

djcaetano

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Re: ecs 2.2
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2013, 12:48:18 pm »
Well,
Let´s try something constructive, based on my personal perspective.

I am a developer, with good OS/2 PM and OO programming background, but I have never been able to build a single working WPS Class. The real question here is: why?

I believe the answer has to do with "real life". When I finally had enough background and knowledge to master WPS programming (which is not as easy as a hello world C program), the free time needed to understand the complexities of SOM emitter (and how to build something to work on WPS) was not available anymore.

I *do* have some time I would like to spent on WPS programming - extending or replacing its components. But I just can´t figure out how to build something, how to make it work. The documentation I am able to find references to compilers that are not available anymore or use toolkits so ancient that the sample codes do not work anymore. The sample code on OS/2 Toolkit is confuse and I never was able to figure out how it works, why it does things like it does... and the documentation provided by IBM in that matter is far from simple to understand. It looks like the documentation was created to those who already know the matter and, therefore, don´t need the documentation.

I really believe there are *a lot* of WPS classes that could be replaced/developed by basic to medium-skilled programmers but, as it happens to myself, they just have no time to figure out how to start.

If someone which is already used to build WPS classes (or has the time to fiddle out with old documentation and figure out how to update it) could spare some time building a WIKI page on OS/2 World explaining step-by-step how to create a basic "hello world WPS class" using the most current software and toolkits (including tools download links whenever possible), I believe this could help not only me, but one or two other community programmers.
The wiki page could also present links to resources on old WPS programming already present on several places (I tried about four or five WPS programming tutorials, and never was able to get something working), but the focus should be kept on presenting the WPS Class creation/installation for the uninitiated.

Sorry if I am asking too much, but we are at a draw. Most core-OS/2 developers are already commited to important life-support OS/2 development - and I believe this is the best they can do to help OS/2 platform; if the community can benefit from WPS development, this should be done by those who are not actively programming for OS/2, but are able to do so. This "let´s do some WPS programming tutorial" would be, IMHO, a great step into this direction.

My kindest regards,

Daniel Caetano