Author Topic: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion  (Read 2693 times)

ivan

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ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« on: July 30, 2019, 10:49:55 am »
Hi Doug,

The AMD Ryzen processors have a USB 3 built in then there is the northbridge that has USB 2 and USB 3 and USB 3.1, numbers depending on the northbridge version.  The AM4 motherboards may also have an ASMedia USB 3 and USB 3.1 as well.  There are a couple oother chip manufacturers that supply USB 3 chipsets for add in cards eg. Renesas - I have the source code for their Linux drivers.

If you would like me to test the USB 3 driver just e-mail it and I can easily try it on 5 different AM4 motherboards.

Doug Bissett

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2019, 05:29:02 pm »
Quote
The AMD Ryzen processors have a USB 3 built in then there is the northbridge that has USB 2 and USB 3 and USB 3.1, numbers depending on the northbridge version.  The AM4 motherboards may also have an ASMedia USB 3 and USB 3.1 as well.  There are a couple oother chip manufacturers that supply USB 3 chipsets for add in cards eg. Renesas - I have the source code for their Linux drivers.

So, you won't know what you have, until you have the machine. Linux drivers are probably totally irrelevant.

Quote
If you would like me to test the USB 3 driver just e-mail it and I can easily try it on 5 different AM4 motherboards.

Sorry, I can't make that call. Be assured, that AN does have a Ryzen processor for testing. That is how they got the boot loader, and Memdisk, to work. They can test USB 3 with that machine. If it is the same as your machine (no guarantees), they should be able to make it work. Rather than showing an advertising picture, it would be more helpful if you would show the results of running C:\sys\install\DETECT\pci.exe.

Even better would be that you should learn not to buy the "latest and greatest" hardware, until it is supported. Something off of the clearance shelf is usually better supported, and cheaper (of course, Ryzen is now on the clearance shelf, and AN probably have more catching up to do).

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2019, 06:23:28 pm »

Quote
If you would like me to test the USB 3 driver just e-mail it and I can easily try it on 5 different AM4 motherboards.

Sorry, I can't make that call. Be assured, that AN does have a Ryzen processor for testing. That is how they got the boot loader, and Memdisk, to work. They can test USB 3 with that machine. If it is the same as your machine (no guarantees), they should be able to make it work. Rather than showing an advertising picture, it would be more helpful if you would show the results of running C:\sys\install\DETECT\pci.exe.

That kind of answer - where the writer uses his mothertongue! - is one of those I like most: like a kind of "God" telling people what they SHOULD do.

Even better would be that you should learn not to buy the "latest and greatest" hardware, until it is supported. Something off of the clearance shelf is usually better supported, and cheaper (of course, Ryzen is now on the clearance shelf, and AN probably have more catching up to do).

To answer this kind of "helpfull advices" the same way it should be like this: (say it with your own words):

"Even better would be you should learn not to answer in unspecified manner. It is usually better to tell wich kind of "Ryzen processor" is meant here, the first, the second or the third generation that is used by ArcaNoae? Otherwise people might get confused what Hardware you are talking about and you might rise exepectations, that never will be fullfilled."

It is not only boring to read condescending teachings like this.

And if I understand your answers regarding testing the "Existing USB 3 driver": it only works with an Adapter on a T43 (almost 12 Year old hardware that is better supported by Warp 4.52) that is even not desinged to have USB 3.0 at all. ALL other testing failed.

Without using or trying to use ArcaOS on modern hardware a lot of helpfull and benefiting information for the system at all would have never seen the light of day.

So please, there are people who try to test it on modern hardware and not want to stay with old hardware. And there is nothing wrong with it.

Doug Bissett

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2019, 08:58:00 pm »
Quote
And if I understand your answers regarding testing the "Existing USB 3 driver": it only works with an Adapter on a T43 (almost 12 Year old hardware that is better supported by Warp 4.52) that is even not desinged to have USB 3.0 at all. ALL other testing failed.

It did not "fail", it has a problem that hasn't been resolved yet. This is still pre-Alpha grade software, after all.

BTW, ArcaOS IS Warp 4.52, with essential updates to keep it working on modern hardware (well, almost modern).

I was trying to point out that the exact same hardware has different results on two different machines. The fact that one seems to work, and the other not, points out the difficulty in getting these things to work on all machines, never mind trying to get different adapters to work on all machines. It is not an easy task, and it takes a LOT of time. The fact that it works, at all, is a huge step forward, and it is better than it was a couple of months ago. Progress is being made, which I find encouraging. Now, if the programmers can get people off their backs for a while, they may be able to get the job finished.

Quote
That kind of answer - where the writer uses his mothertongue! - is one of those I like most: like a kind of "God" telling people what they SHOULD do.

Stop reading here, if you aren't interested in learning something.

Perhaps somebody will learn to use their heads, and not ask silly questions, with insufficient data to support what they are asking. Sorry, but I am losing interest in trying to figure out what somebody is talking about (and I don't have the time to bother), when they don't supply supporting information. That is one of the main reasons why the Arca Noae principals don't bother to read these posts (another is that they are too busy trying to get the whole thing working better). The few of us who do read these posts, and respond, are not really part of the inside group, all we do is test things for them. If you are not interested in our (outsider) observations, say so, and we will shut up (well, I will anyway). Those guys are working their collective asses off, trying to make a product that actually works. Some things are easier than others, and they get done quicker. USB 3 is one of the more difficult tasks, and it is taking far longer than anybody thought. It is also taking time away from getting WiFi support (and a few other things) done. USB 3 trumps WiFi, because there is a reasonable alternative to WiFi, but USB 3 is causing much concern, as Ivan demonstrates, and there really isn't a viable alternative in a lot of cases.

Eugene Tucker

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2019, 09:59:21 pm »
Thank you for the update Doug. Maany should realize that we are in the too few trying to do too much boat with this issue.

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2019, 10:45:20 pm »
It did not "fail", it has a problem that hasn't been resolved yet. This is still pre-Alpha grade software, after all.

I am wondering, in May 2016 David A. said USB 3 is at about 90% done, in December 2018 Lewis R. said he HOPE to have a Beta Testing in February 2019 and since a while you are writing it "Exists" -> and now we are at "Pre Alpha Stage". Is this some kind of backward engineering? What's the opinion of the ArcaNoae people about this?


BTW, ArcaOS IS Warp 4.52, with essential updates to keep it working on modern hardware (well, almost modern).

Really? You must be kidding! After using OS/2 for almost 25 Years I still thought ArcaOS is a total new Development that started from scratch (or even before)! Was'nt eComstation a development starting from scratch as well? Where have I been the last 20 years...?


Perhaps somebody will learn to use their heads, and not ask silly questions, with insufficient data to support what they are asking.

We have a good saying for this in German:

Es gibt keine dummen Fragen, nur dumme Antworten.

For your convinience I will translate it: There are no silly questions, there are only silly answers.


That is one of the main reasons why the Arca Noae principals don't bother to read these posts (another is that they are too busy trying to get the whole thing working better). The few of us who do read these posts, and respond, are not really part of the inside group, all we do is test things for them. If you are not interested in our (outsider) observations, say so, and we will shut up (well, I will anyway).

Interesting, do you or do you not speak in behalf of ArcaNoae? Is that what ArcaNoae told you for not taking part in Forums?
That might be one of the problems: there is the "inside Group", the "outside but tester Group" and then there is that's what's left: the "real outside Group". I wonder that the community at all is big enough to fill all these positions! And please: Do not ask a questions once your are not part of one of the two first groups.


Those guys are working their collective asses off, trying to make a product that actually works. Some things are easier than others, and they get done quicker.

And here again: the Refrain repeated for years now, a common knowledge. Sometimes if it goes this way and having this progress over years with an essential problem it might be a good idea to consider to try another way, perhaps collaborate with other developers. Yes, there are no other USB developers around. By the way: I am wondering about the work a guy named Lars Erdmann is doing with USB. Or Wim Brul - I remeber that thanks to his work I got working USB Pen and Touch support with OS/2, not on hardware from 1996, it was a more modern one....

But in the end - who cares? Die Karawane zieht weiter.... :)



ivan

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2019, 11:27:32 pm »
Pci information as requested.  The pci-ryzen-aos.txt is from using the ArcaOS 5.0.4 DVD and the pci-ryzen.txt is from using pci.exe in my tools directory with a fairly new  pcidevs.txt

Martin Iturbide

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2019, 12:20:05 am »
Hi Guys

I also have some frustration on wanting to test and run ArcaOS on newer hardware. USB3 and wifi support are critical and there are still no solution out there. But remember to be civil about it, instead of unloading the frustration on people I would prefer a more constructive criticism to Arca Noae.

My opinions are based on:
- ArcaOS is only two years old.
- Skill on OS/2 driver development are very limited.
- Releasing an OS is arduous/tedious job.
- I was invited to the ArcaNoae test mailing list and I have a better insight of how tedious is to launch a new release.
- Before releasing ArcaOS, Lewis told me (I'm not quoting exactly) that his primary goal at that moment was to produce an OS/2 that runs on newer hardware and that there will be an option for people to obtain/buy OS/2.

The criticism to Arca Noae:
- USB 3 is taking too long and it is critical.
- Wifi drivers are also taking a long time and is a desirable thing for the community.
- AN should invest to have more people with device driver development skills and kernel knowledge to accomplish the "primary goal".

But even if is talking longer than expected, AN is close to accomplish that primary goal that once Lewis told me. Once USB3, ArcaOS 5.1 in different languages, UEFI and maybe Wifi get released, AN should update theirs goal and they should start thinking on the future of the platform beyond of "just run on newer machines". A strategy for the future should not be only to react to create drivers when new PC hardware appear, but to think about how the platform software architecture can be improved, try to find a niche where to grow the install base and even thinking of an ecosystem for the OS.

I still think that AN had made a great job in just two years, with the exception that new driver development seems to be very limited and slow if they want to accomplish their "primary goal" to support OS/2 on newer hardware. In my opinion AN should invest to have more full time driver developers for the platform, but that is up to his internal financial numbers.

For the last year, as part of the community, my goal had been to try to consolidate the OS/2 knowledge and make it available for the public. I had been able, with the help of the community, to scan, organize, request permission and release material that are now available on github, os2world wiki and EDM/2. Any more driver development material is more than welcome on EDM/2.

If drivers is the issue I would suggest to try to get organized, find the rest of OS/2 driver developers and ask them how much they will charge for a XYZ driver on OS/2, and try to raise money for that. I will support any bounty or ideas to create new drivers to can be open source (even better, copyleft) so it can be updated in the future and works as learning material for other people learning about OS/2 driver development.

Regards
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 12:24:23 am by Martin Iturbide »
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ivan

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2019, 01:24:40 am »
All good points Martin but my main frustration is the total lack of communication about what is going on.  It is only now that we learn that Arca Noae actually has an AMD Ryzen AM4 based test unit but the question remains is that a first or second generation Ryzen and does it have an integrated graphics processor.

Over here we have a couple of national suppliers doing discounts on Ryzen based machines and I have a lot of my old clients asking if it is safe to update to them.  I have to tell them No at the moment because of lack of information about USB 3 drivers - extremely frustrating.

Another thing I would like to offer some of my time and equipment for testing but there is no information on how to do that - it is almost as if Arca Noae does not want anyone outside the inner circle to know what is going on or even help.  Maybe that is the way they do things in the US but it does not make much sense to those of us outside the US.

Dave Yeo

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2019, 04:18:50 am »
Another thing I would like to offer some of my time and equipment for testing but there is no information on how to do that - it is almost as if Arca Noae does not want anyone outside the inner circle to know what is going on or even help.  Maybe that is the way they do things in the US but it does not make much sense to those of us outside the US.

Have you tried writing Louis?

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2019, 05:45:25 am »
Just to make it clear: I know the Situation at ArcaNoae and accepted the way they are doing things even though I would choose other ways. I am happy that there is progress at all and appreciate what they have done. Once I wrote them a Mail I allways got a reply. If so and if it is relevant to a discussion I isually share it there, as well as my experiences with it.

I offered my time for testing as well, with the Hardware I do have, quite new one usually, like Ivan. It did not happen and I accepted it, even if I do not understand it, like Ivan, but ArcaNoae has to decide what they want to do.

But what I really do not like is when someone, for years now, tries to cut down each and every discussion or criticism on this with allways the same, and obvious useless, arguments. ArcaOS is not a holy cow (Heilige Kuh), it is a living OS. And one part if this lige is Discussion, Testing, sharing knowledge. Otherwise it will become closed source and will die, not for the mostly industrial customers but for the "community".

Drawing a picture that ArcaNoae is a company somewhere behind a cloud and everything they are doing is the right decision, even if others, usually the "normal user" not only will not or never understand why but also has no ability to do so - is the wrong way.

I think ArcaNoae itself does not think this way. I would suggest, i.e., to spread at least monthly some news like bww and netlabswith the "biweekly newsletter" do. That would eat a maximum of one our work per month but would lead to a better and up to date information what is really going on. That is again just a suggestion, not "a must", as I do have no intention to pursuade someone.

By the way I plan to release a video about installing ArcaOS on the ArcaOs Video channel I created on Youtube. It will take sone more weeks, four I guess, and will be shown to ArcaNoae before I release it. Hints, suggestions and critic are welcome!
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 05:48:55 am by Sigurd Fastenrath »

Doug Bissett

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2019, 06:35:59 am »
Quote
I think ArcaNoae itself does not think this way. I would suggest, i.e., to spread at least monthly some news like bww and netlabswith the "biweekly newsletter" do. That would eat a maximum of one our work per month but would lead to a better and up to date information what is really going on. That is again just a suggestion, not "a must", as I do have no intention to pursuade someone.

Lewis did start to do a regular news release, but, as I understand it, it became a choice of spending an hour trying to explain what was going on (which can change from day to day), or getting some sleep. Now that he isn't spending 16 hours a day trying to get 5.0.4 out the door, (in addition to doing his real job, and looking after his home and family), we may see another update.

Quote
By the way I plan to release a video about installing ArcaOS on the ArcaOs Video channel I created on Youtube.

Looking forward to seeing that. The only "problem" that I can see, is that there are a lot of different scenarios, and it may be difficult to pick a path that will show the user the steps that they would want to use. Simply showing how to get a computer to boot from a USB stick could take an hour, and each user would find only a few minutes of it to be interesting.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2019, 11:52:30 pm »
Hi.

I split the topic. It seems we left the "USBDRV 10.225 - full support for USB audio" discussion.

I offered my time for testing as well, with the Hardware I do have, quite new one usually, like Ivan. It did not happen and I accepted it, even if I do not understand it, like Ivan, but ArcaNoae has to decide what they want to do.
I'm guessing that you both (Sigurd and Ivan), being ArcaOS customers, requested Lewis to be part of the testing group (mailing list) and got rejected? If that will be my call I would accept you since you have background testing hardware with OS/2, but I can't help with that.

But what I really do not like is when someone, for years now, tries to cut down each and every discussion or criticism on this with allways the same....
I agree with you, and I dislike that. I remember the Mensys days when nothing was happening, but we have the "Mensys fan" blocking every criticism about eComStation and telling us that something is going to come.  But I think is good to cut the discussion when it turn into "one person against the other", instead of constructive criticism about what is going on. 

Drawing a picture that ArcaNoae is a company somewhere behind a cloud and everything they are doing is the right decision, even if others, usually the "normal user" not only will not or never understand why but also has no ability to do so - is the wrong way.
Again, I remember someone saying "Mensys is the only one betting on OS/2, and you should not open your mouth", which was unpleasant. We don't have Arca Noae trolls here (not yet), just people with more insight about what is going on the test mailing list. I talked to Lewis some time ago about some ideas, but his priority was to release first an "OS/2 version capable of running in modern hardware", but he didn't dismiss any of my ideas at the moment. So I think it is more about resources ($$$$) and how to focus the people they have.

My criticism remains the same: If running on modern hardware is the priority, then drivers are required, and it seems they have a shortage of people that can provide OS/2 drivers in timely a way. 

On the other hand, we don't need Arca Noae to do our own hardware tests. Just like we have been doing it, let's keep testing hardware and post our findings on the forums, we discuss it with different people to find options, and after a while if no solution is found the person with the hardware issue opens a ticket to Arca Noae.

Regards
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 12:01:06 am by Martin Iturbide »
Martin Iturbide
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ivan

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2019, 12:38:47 am »
Quote
My criticism remains the same: If running on modern hardware is the priority, then drivers are required, and it seems they have a shortage of people that can provide OS/2 drivers in timely a way.

On the other hand, we don't need Arca Noae to do our own hardware tests. Just like we have been doing it, let's keep testing hardware and post our findings on the forums, we discuss it with different people to find options, and after a while if no solution is found the person with the hardware issue opens a ticket to Arca Noae.

Martin, while I mostly agree with you there are many of us that have the equipment to do the testing but can't do so because there is nothing to test.

When I ran a business we did initial testing in house and as soon as we had it working reasonably well we sent it out to those that could test it on actual working equipment which meant all of our clients.  The feedback we got was then applied to the next version and again was sent out.  Eventually we ended up with a product that our sales people could take and sell to new clients.

From what I have seen that is not the way products are developed in the US where they seem to be obsessed with IP and 'you must not let other know what you are doing'.

That being said, I suspect if a poll was taken of the equipment used by the people on this site there would be a very broad range of different equipment  that would go a long way to making a useful beta test group.  Yes it would require a little organisation by the principles to enable them to make use of the results, and yes a result of 'it doesn't work on xyz' is a useful result when it makes the developer look at the difference between xyz and what does work, we learned a lot from such results.
 

Andreas Schnellbacher

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Re: ArcaOS Hardware Support Discussion
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2019, 02:31:02 am »
All good points Martin but my main frustration is the total lack of communication about what is going on.
Yes, I thought the same. My situation has changed, because I'm now a member of the Test Group. There's rather too much info on the list and downloads. It's the opposite of the situation before. (I'm one of the translators for the German language and was unintenionally not added before.) I can say that the wish to participate increases enormously with access to the development details.