Author Topic: Martin: please do not upload outdated drivers to Hobbes  (Read 890 times)

Lars

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 45
  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
Martin: please do not upload outdated drivers to Hobbes
« on: December 18, 2019, 09:14:39 am »
Hallo Martin,

I think it would be a good idea to not upload outdated drivers to Hobbes:

1) the Hobbes incoming directory is completely clogged up with old drivers and nobody seems to have interest to move that stuff to the final destination. This leads to the problem that other apps and drivers (like DFSee or my new USB drivers and other interesting apps) also get stuck in the incoming directory and never reach their final destination

2) there is a risk that people will download outdated drivers which have long been replaced by newer ones. This leads to all kinds of questions and requests for help which are unnecessary because various problems have been solved by newer drivers.


On the other hand, if you have old source code to upload, then go ahead. Old source code is always a good place to start off to create new stuff.


Regards,
Lars

Martin Iturbide

  • OS2World NewsMaster
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 450
  • -Receive: 91
  • Posts: 2571
  • Your Friend Wil Declares...
    • View Profile
    • Martin's Personal Blog
Re: Martin: please do not upload outdated drivers to Hobbes
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2019, 01:39:04 pm »
Hi Lars

1) The clogged incoming directory, as far as a I know, it is not a problem of the number of files you upload. It seems to me that hobbes has an automatic procedure to process that directory that is no longer working as supposed. If you have evidence that blames this on me, please let me know to try to correct that.

2) There are people that require older drivers. The community does not only has people with ArcaOS trying to run on the best and newer hardware possible, there are also old computer hobbyist that like to run older OS/2 versions on old computers. So they require old drivers from time to time. I had tried to organize them as best as possible  with the driver version, date and the original file name (on the description) so the driver can be found from old documents references.

The discussion that we had on the past about hobbes is if it should only store the newest things and latest versions or if it should try to archive everything related to OS/2. We didn't get a final agreement, but I think that drivers should be preserved in all versions.

I'm concern these days that web sites are going offline, OS/2 related files are disappearing from the internet and sometimes not even the Wayback machine had them. That is why, when I got the time, I keep trying to organize those and have several places to host the same files. (hobbes has like two sites that replicate its content). I know that some people believe in the "one centralized and only" repository, but I believe that is good to have several decentralized places that copies the same information.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.

Lars

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 45
  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
Re: Martin: please do not upload outdated drivers to Hobbes
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2019, 05:56:01 pm »
Hallo Martin,

1) I don't think that you are to blame for the clogged up incoming directory. But from what I heard, the automatic procedure is no longer in place and therefore, a human being has to move that stuff to the final destination. And with that many files, I think the motivation of that human being is going to severly drop.

2) Yes, people will need drivers for older HW. But if you have 2 driver versions for the very same HW, then almost always, the newer driver version will suffice. The risk is just too high that people will try a severly outdated version and then run into all sorts of problems. This for example is true for PRINT01.SYS: it existed for a long time, was "superseded/side stepped" by PAR1284.SYS (also by IBM) but now PAR1284.SYS is outdated for PCI devices (even though it handles SPP/EPP and ECP just fine) and has been superseded by the latest version of PRINT01.SYS that can be configured to handle any PCI plug-in card with a parallel port (through the "PCIDev.tbl" configuration file). There is just a too high risk that people won't go anywhere with PAR1284.SYS.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 05:58:05 pm by Lars »

Doug Bissett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 52
  • Posts: 1292
    • View Profile
Re: Martin: please do not upload outdated drivers to Hobbes
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2019, 06:13:45 pm »
Quote
I think it would be a good idea to not upload outdated drivers to Hobbes

I agree. HOBBES should be for current software.

About 20 years ago, a lot of that stuff was purged from HOBBES, to free up space for new stuff. Now, you are cluttering it up, by putting it back.

Quote
I think that drivers should be preserved in all versions

At least you should only upload, known good versions. Uploading all versions of something is simply making it more difficult for those who need that stuff, because they then need to sort out that good from the bad. I am pretty sure that you can't make that call.

Quote
I'm concern these days that web sites are going offline, OS/2 related files are disappearing from the internet and sometimes not even the Wayback machine had them.

Unfortunately, this is true, but that may not be all bad. There comes a time when it is time to update.

The bottom line is, that if you really think it is important to archive all of that stuff, do it at OS2WORLD. HOBBES is a teaching tool, that happens to serve the OS/2 community. Don't mess that up. Universities are having enough trouble getting sufficient funding for more important things, and storing antique software could be hard to justify, when the bean counters come calling. I am pretty sure that anybody who investigates the value of the HOBBES content, will not be impressed by obsolete software, that is simply taking up disk space.  It could, easily, be used as an excuse to close the service.

Quote
I don't think that you are to blame for the clogged up incoming directory. But from what I heard, the automatic procedure is no longer in place and therefore, a human being has to move that stuff to the final destination. And with that many files, I think the motivation of that human being is going to severly drop.

As I understand it, there never was an automatic procedure. It is a project for some student, who first needs to learn what is to be done, then they need to write a procedure to do it, then test that, then do it. That is one of the reasons why the update procedure has been somewhat inconsistent, over the years (Sometimes, caps are accepted, and sometimes not. Sometimes somebody does it, and sometimes that course isn't held in that semester). Human motivation is to pass the course. One problem is that the course, itself, may become obsolete, and that would automatically remove the service.

Martin Iturbide

  • OS2World NewsMaster
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 450
  • -Receive: 91
  • Posts: 2571
  • Your Friend Wil Declares...
    • View Profile
    • Martin's Personal Blog
Re: Martin: please do not upload outdated drivers to Hobbes
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2019, 06:47:52 pm »
Hi

I read your comments, but sadly the issue seems to be more with hobbes than with me uploading files:
- Storage space has evolved and got cheaper since hobbes started, old files keep being small, that goes with the "cluttering it up"
- I had offer myself to help on what I can to the hobbes archive, but I haven't get any reply about that subject.
- It would seem that Hobbes will eventually get discontinued, no matter if we keep uploading files or not.

So, you may complain about old files and drivers, but the real issue is we fear about the future of hobbes repository.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.

Martin Iturbide

  • OS2World NewsMaster
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 450
  • -Receive: 91
  • Posts: 2571
  • Your Friend Wil Declares...
    • View Profile
    • Martin's Personal Blog
Re: Martin: please do not upload outdated drivers to Hobbes
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2019, 06:50:53 pm »
Hi.

Also, I don't think we should "erase from the earth" deprecated or discontinued software. Otherwise we will have to dump OS/2. We need to preserve it, document that is discontinued, and suggest list software replaces it.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.

ivan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 36
  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
Re: Martin: please do not upload outdated drivers to Hobbes
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2019, 01:43:43 am »
While I wonder where people are going to find much of the hardware required by those drivers - I threw out much of the old hardware years ago and quite frankly wouldn't want to go back to it.

I can also see what you are trying to do.  Maybe a better idea would be to zip up sets of drivers and include a text file saying what they are (example; all the SCSI drivers, all the CD drivers, all the video drivers etc.  That way they are there but don't crowd out new software.

Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

Daniel Carroll

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 1
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Martin: please do not upload outdated drivers to Hobbes
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2019, 02:30:53 am »
I have donated to Hobbes often enough that New Mexico State University now has me on their Alumni mailing list. I sent another $500 this year. They may be slow some times but I think they will keep going.

Doug Clark

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 17
  • Posts: 191
    • View Profile
Re: Martin: please do not upload outdated drivers to Hobbes
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2019, 07:28:24 am »
Alumni associations seem to have supernatural abilities to track graduates down across time and space. And, I guess, donors also. Thanks Daniel for contributing to Hobbes.

I too have noticed that Hobbes seems to have a problem with a large backup of incoming files, which is troublesome.  But I have to vote with Martin on archiving old drivers.  Newer versions of a driver for the same hardware SHOULD work better, but it seems that is not always the case. I can think of a couple examples in OS/2, and a few more examples in Windows.

Lars' concern about someone accidentally getting the wrong version of a driver for a piece of hardware is valid. Perhaps a list/cross reference of hardware to driver(s) with versions would help. Although if someone just searches Hobbes without consulting the list the list would do no good.