Author Topic: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel  (Read 5853 times)

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2020, 08:50:27 pm »
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2015/11/01/microsoft-android-patent-income/
WOW, Six Billion Dollars !!!

That 2011 Android/Linux settlements really paid off. It was a good play, if MS would sue a big one that can fight in court and invalidate all those patents, there will be no "Six Billion Dollars " in revenue today  :D

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Martin Iturbide
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Rita Richason

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2020, 09:43:18 pm »

but it is important to don't go blindly trusting them.
ExFAT
they will sue you to get a settlement and money, that will possible be cheaper to you (and yrou company) than going to court

This is my personal opinion, but people that runs companies are free to take the risks they want to.

Regards


Yes, those are patent royalties. And those are perceptions. Microsoft (and Foxconn) made some IP and copyrighted it. If the standard is open, it benefits everyone, same as the new XML formats did. You're assuming the nature of the new license before even seeing it.

I was hoping you had some substantive information (like some actual code or information cited.  The refences you gave regard the lawsuit itself and not the actual use/misuse of the intellectual property). The lawsuit/royalties have nothing to do with exFAT or Paragon.

Companies protect their patents. That's why they register them: to prevent going out of business. But that has nothing to do with that article. exFAT standards will be open. They cannot be a source of lawsuit if they are opened. If anything it will cost thousands of people their jobs. I say this is good news whoever announces it.
You have a prejudice against a particular company and that prejudice informs all of your speech and reasoning. 
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 10:15:44 pm by Rita Richason »

Roderick Klein

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2020, 10:12:56 pm »
I can't help wondering if this is the 'extend' phase of Microsoft's takeover strategy that always ends with 'extinguish'.  After all Ms has been very well known for its 'Embrace', 'Extend', 'Extinguish' strategy although the US DoJ called it 'embrace, extend, exterminate'.

https://www.howtogeek.com/183766/why-microsoft-makes-5-to-15-from-every-android-device-sold/

Microsoft followed the IBM model, kind off. They make money by putting the I.P. in open source software and charge for it. it seems.
I do not know if that is the case with exfat as well. Open source, they need to make money some how. They are not including exfat just the benefit of mankind...

Roderick


Martin Iturbide

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2020, 10:55:03 pm »
Rich.

I made a long answer to reply you all the times the Microsoft played dirty in the past.... but I closed the windows by accident and got erased. So maybe it is fate that does not want me to hold a grudge on Microsoft.

I used to dislike Microsoft in the past, but I had my revenge  ;D Today I just mistrust Microsoft like any other company at the same level. Any company like Microsoft will sue you when they know they can earn  money from it.

Maybe I can suggest Arca Noae to join the Open Invention Network, and later include exFAT on the FAT32 driver. If Microsoft sues Arca Noae it will look very bad on the press, but Arca Noae will have to publish the suing intention (letter) to the public for us to known about it. The risk will be that Microsoft destroys Arca Noae and we will no longer have ArcaOS, and in a few months everyone will forgot about that Microsoft nasty move. Is the risk worthy?

On other side I think that Valery is more safe as an individual that coded exFAT inside FAT32 driver.  So, if someone wants exFAT get it from Netlabs. And if something needs to be improved on Valerys exFAT, let's try to raise money to motivate him to improve it.

Regards
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 10:59:31 pm by Martin Iturbide »
Martin Iturbide
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Joop

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2020, 11:22:50 pm »
There might be something else going on. When Bayer introduced "asperine" they couldn't know that it would became so popular. Some other companies made the medicine and called it the same way. Outcome they see each other in court. But the outcome for Bayer was something they had not expected. They lost there rights on the brand name "asperine" because everyone did know what it was and used it. In other words it became too popular. In short, their success became their grave in some way. After that, the brand name soon was replaced by other brand names and everyone forgot what "asperine" was. They got better alternatives.
Now, what has this to do with exFat? The problem for Microsoft is the same. It becomes too popular and its the only system found on mobile memory cards, sticks, hard drives, camera' s, mobile devices and so on. And this popularity can become a risk for Microsoft. The problem is that they still can ask money for Windows, just because there is Linux, OS/2, DOS and some others. So, Windows is popular, but there are alternatives. This is not the case with exFat. And this is about the same case as with "asperine". So, before damage will occur, they could give some away. If they don't do that and go on the way they did, then they could end up in court with possible much more loss then only exFat. Remind, Microsoft is nothing about software but all about rights, that's how they build Microsoft.

Rita Richason

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2020, 11:27:18 pm »
Rich.
 Any company like Microsoft will sue you when they know they can earn  money from it.

Indeed. You are right.

I will be really happy to see exFAT come to OS/2 if possible

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2020, 11:28:35 pm »
Microsoft followed the IBM model, kind off. ...

But I think that Microsoft on the late 90's was worst. IBM was presumptuous and if you didn't want to do anything with IBM they will tell you to get screw and leave you alone. Microsoft made the same thing, but instead of leaving you alone they will help to screw you.

It was on their salesman training slide. (Reference - Page 30)

Ohh the memories, I love to talk for hours about these things from the past.


Regards

Update: Microsoft tech evangelist who called developers 'pawns' apologizes (Jan 10, 2007)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 11:45:54 pm by Martin Iturbide »
Martin Iturbide
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Rita Richason

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2020, 11:40:30 pm »
names and everyone forgot what "asperine" was. They got better alternatives.

I was just Xeroxing some papers when You posted.  :D  :D  I think Bayer is still quite wealthy through other means but this is a brilliant point.

Dave Yeo

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2020, 02:57:41 am »
Aspirin is still trademarked here in Canada. Actually according to this, https://www.inta.org/INTABulletin/Pages/ASPIRINBrandorAspirinTabletsAvoidingtheGenericideHeadacheintheUnitedStates.aspx it is still trademarked in most of the world. Seems the trademark was lost in WWI. The UK voided the trademark to allow companies to make aspirin and the USA used the "Trading With the Enemy" act to confiscate and auction off Bayer's property. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_aspirin#World_War_I_and_Bayer

Myself, I do not trust Microsoft and when it was first announced about including exFat in Linux, it was really unclear if the exception to the patents covers more then Linux. I haven't been following too  closely but as far as I know, this is still true in the sense that Arca Noae won't want to gamble on it. At that, they haven't even added MP3 support out of being cautious I believe.

Bill Sorenson

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2020, 05:00:58 pm »
My understanding of the way this works is that Microsoft is providing the patents to the Open Invention Network, such that Linux users using the driver in Linux would be allowed to use exFAT royalty free, and that would be legally enforceable such that Microsoft would not be able to take action against Linux users or companies developing Linux kernel code. I do not think that would apply to the same patents covering software deployed in a closed source, non-Linux operating system. Arca Noae would likely still need to get a patent license from Microsoft or a letter from Microsoft lawyers indicating that it is OK to port the open source driver in Linux to Arca OS and expect the same treatment from Microsoft under the OIN patent grant. (Which seems unlikely to me but not impossible).

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2020, 09:47:02 pm »
Hi

I had doubts about the Open Invention Network. The terms of the membership say they grants members royalty free license with respect only to the "Linux System". 

Here is the definition:
Quote
Linux Kernel” shall mean the software package(s) identified as “kernel” in the Linux Environment Component.

Linux Environment Component” shall mean any of the software packages whose released source code shall be identified on the OIN website, including bug fixes and error corrections thereto, or a Predecessor Release or Successor Release of any of such packages.

Linux System” shall mean a Linux Environment Component or any combination of such components to the extent each such component is (i) generally available under an Open Source License or in the public domain (and the source code for such component is generally available) and (ii) Distributed with, or for use with, the Linux Kernel (or is the Linux Kernel).

This last part is the one that kills me.... and (ii) Distributed with, or for use with, the Linux Kernel (or is the Linux Kernel). That last part is kind of a screw up for us.

I guess this means for example. If DFSee joins the OIN, he is protected against patents attacks for exFAT use in the Linux OS, but the OIN will be useless or play a blind if he gets sue for DFSee for OS/2, Windows or any non-Linux kernel OS.

Any thoughts?

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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Dave Yeo

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2020, 04:01:50 am »
What I don't understand is why is the Linux community going along with this? It doesn't seem GPL friendly if you can use a part of the kernel like we do with Alsa and get sued for it.

ivan

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2020, 07:34:43 am »
Dave, like you I don't understand the 'why' but I assume it has something to do with MS adding parts of Linux to windows - the typical MS 'Embrace, Extend, Extinguish' strategy.

Mathias

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2020, 10:13:05 am »
Also a possibility: Industries widely use linux in consumer products, like car entertainment systems and the like. If you happen to plug a USB stick into them, using exfat, you wouldn't be able to read the stick.
So, could be, there is an industry demand for exfat support in the linux kernel.

And of course Microsoft wants the world to use the only correct operating system... their own... to satisfy all their computing needs.
Let's continue with the above example: GuyX buys an USB stick at the next store (preformatted with exfat), put that stick in his Windows machine, loads lots of songs onto that.. and finally in the car, the entertainment system (linux) cannot read the damn stick..

Googling (or duckduckgo'in) around he finds that exfat is the culprit and the damn MS operating system "does not work with my radio".
(While instead the majaority of linux users would simply reformat to fat32, the Windows guy goes through a lot of hassles until he finally (or never) finds a solution.

So.. to make the Windows experience as smooth as possible, there is indeed a demand to support any major MS file system in the linux kernel. Makes sense for them.

Andi B.

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Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2020, 12:26:42 pm »
Quote
loads lots of songs onto that.. and finally in the car, the entertainment system (linux) cannot read the damn stick..

Googling (or duckduckgo'in) around he finds that exfat is the culprit and the damn MS operating system "does not work with my radio".

I would love to see a car manufacturer to solve this the MS way. When inserting an EXFAT stick - reformat automatically to something else :-)