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What is the agenda for OS/2 today?
Martin Iturbide:
Hi
Like a told before, I think that Mensys is doing a good job, but they have a long term strategy, which gets hard to attract new members to this community.
We require things like bluetooth, better ACPI, more Wifi device driver, but that is not long term strategy. But adding this things to eComStation/OS/2 will not make people to turn back to us and join us. We still have the disadvantage (compared to Linux) that OS/2 is not free of charge, everybody that wants access to it needs to pay. If eComStation were free for individual use, that will be another history, but it is not.
I still think that we need a project focused on the long term, that it goal will be to get our independence from IBM's source code on an open source model. Please notice that I'm not against that players profit from it on the future with services or custom builds, just like RedHat did with Linux, but with the spirit of sharing the source code and nobody trying to hijack us by creating a "close source" software dependency. This is what we learned when IBM dumped us, this is why open source is important for us, no more dependencies of a single person or company that can die or go out of business.
Every step we made on the open source direction is good, like Paul Smedley, Elbert Pol, David Azarewicz (the open source projects), Mensys, Yudi Dario, Dmik, Silvan... etc. But I think we need a "long term project" that can give outside our community a "STATEMENT" that says that we are fighting for the continuity and independence of this platform and we also need developers.
Funds is interesting, but I still haven't found anybody that can help me with the WPS development plan. If someone will jump and said: "I had check your WPS UML and it will take XX months to make it and will cost you XX to work with me", it will be starting point for me.
But please do not take is as it is "WPS" or nothing. There are also other components that need to be replaced for example:
1) SOM - http://sourceforge.net/projects/somfree/
2) Presentation Manager - http://frepm.sourceforge.net/
I'm all in for any project that was to replace/emulate any close source component of OS/2 with an open source replacement.
Thanks for your feedback. I'm taking some notes of your comments too so it is very interesting to keep the discussion in this constructive matter.
Regards
Martin
Regards
Doug Bissett:
--- Quote ---Like a told before, I think that Mensys is doing a good job, but they have a long term strategy, which gets hard to attract new members to this community.
--- End quote ---
Mensys has the same long term strategy that you have. The main difference is that they realize that you need to make what you have work, within the parameters of what you have to work with. Mensys does need to be more organized. It is apparent that they have little, or no, quality control for the overall project, and they are in react mode, most of the time. I can understand why that is the case, but it doesn't help the perception of what eCS is all about.
--- Quote ---But please do not take is as it is "WPS" or nothing. There are also other components that need to be replaced for example:
1) SOM - http://sourceforge.net/projects/somfree/
2) Presentation Manager - http://frepm.sourceforge.net/
--- End quote ---
You sure can pick the hard parts. We have a bicycle, and you want to haul a 30 ton load. Lets start with something that a bicycle can haul, and work up from there. If nothing else, it should give some people a bit of training in how to do such things, before they try to tackle the big jobs. You can't expect your average apprentice welder to build a suspension bridge, without the proper training. It is easy enough to say "lets build a new suspension bridge", but if you have only one apprentice welder who is willing to help, and no funding, I would suggest that you have a major problem. Any attempt to actually do the project will not turn out well, and would probably convince most people that it is "impossible".
We know that eCS desperately needs a few things, just to be viable, in the short term. Pick one of them, and see how it goes. My first choice would be for somebody to pick up the Multimac project, for wired devices. Once eCS 2.2 gets out the door, wireless devices are supposed to be worked on. Once that is developed, somebody needs to work on more support for them too. It is also evident, that we need more modern development tools. Paul S. has been working on that, but he is only one guy, doing it part time. Without that, it is highly unlikely that much new work, of any kind, can happen.
--- Quote ---We still have the disadvantage (compared to Linux) that OS/2 is not free of charge
--- End quote ---
Now that is one of the main problems. Unfortunately, eCS cannot be "free of charge", simply because it is a commercial product (IBM's product. Mensys is simply a non profit organization, when it comes to eCS). You must also remember, that Linux is supported by a number of large corporations (including IBM), for both financing, and development, and it has outside funding as well. ECS has commercial, and private, users supporting it. Users are a little different, because few of them contribute anything but a bit of money. Even trying to get people to support something like the Firefox project, or JAVA, has been like pulling teeth. Some people willingly help out. Most simply sit back, and wait for somebody else to do it, then complain when something goes wrong. Much of what is being done today, should have been done 10 years ago, but most people simply sat back, waiting for IBM (or others) to step back into the game. Now, it may be too late to catch up. It may even be too late to keep up, unless everybody starts to help out.
Martin Iturbide:
--- Quote ---Mensys has the same long term strategy that you have.
--- End quote ---
I don't share that. I don't think that Mensys wants a full OS/2 open source that can last in time. They want eComStation to last in time, but only patching it for new hardware. Remember that his business model is based in corporate customers that can not get away from OS/2 and need to run it on modern hardware.
If Mensys wanted to walk fully the open source path, they will open source ACPI. The ACPI code they are using is open source from Intel, but it is under a license that allows that derivative works can or can not be open source. (please notice that using Intel's ACPI code does not take away all the effort that it was porting it to eCS-OS2, I'm not saying that it was easy).
--- Quote ---My first choice would be for somebody to pick up the Multimac project, for wired devices.
--- End quote ---
Multimac it is interesting and it is needed, but it is not a project to replace a closed source component of OS/2. It is not a project that will help us get recognition that this community is trying to clone OS/2 until we get a complete open source replacement.
I insist (personal opinion) to start on WPS with simple, trying to make a 100% replacement of the basic child WPS class.
- Let's clone WPS Classes that runs on ecs-warp 4.53
- There can also be new features if wanted.
- Lets use the old sc.exe (we don't any other choice) and try to use open source compilers with it.
Doug Bissett:
--- Quote ---I don't think that Mensys wants a full OS/2 open source that can last in time.
--- End quote ---
Of course they do. They just know that eCS must live within the limits of what it is. You, on the other hand, don't seem to understand what it is you are proposing.
Where do you think you are going to get a team of at least 5 very competent programers to do the job, for free? You can't take them from the current pool, or eCS will be long gone before your team even maps out what it is you ask of them. Better to expand the XWorkPlace project, if you can find volunteers. After all, whatever gets done there will be applicable to anything further that eventually gets done by your WPS project, should it survive long enough to be useful.
--- Quote ---If Mensys wanted to walk fully the open source path, they will open source ACPI.
--- End quote ---
You must realize, that Mensys has paid for that development, and they do need to make some return on the project. As you note, the original source is available. Go ahead and make your own. They have made most of what they have paid for available to the whole OS/2 community. Some of the community, on the other hand seems to think that they should get it all, for free. I, for one, don't agree. I have supported eCS from the time I heard about it. Others still seem to think they don't need to contribute to get the benefits of other people's work. Sorry, but it seems that Mensys needs a carrot to dangle in front of the rabbit. I think they have been more than generous in sharing what they develop.
--- Quote ---I insist (personal opinion) to start on WPS with simple, trying to make a 100% replacement of the basic child WPS class.
--- End quote ---
Well, my personal opinion is, that doing that would be about the fastest way to finish off eCS, but go for it, as long as you don't take away from what is already being done. If you do, eCS will wither, and die, long before any progress is made. 10 years ago, you might have had a chance. Today, I doubt it, unless you have a small fortune to sink into the project.
Martin Iturbide:
Sorry Doug. Again the conversation is going to the side if Mensys is doing a good job or not. I don't see Mensys doing a job to open source OS/2, I don't see it on Roderick conversations and I don't see it the eComStation web site. I don't see "Open Sourcing eComStation" on Mensys long term strategy, not even hiding between lines. Plus Mensys is another player just like IBM, when it stops being a good business they are going to leave. That is the normal thing to do for a company, but we are community of users, that's why we need to look to remain with the platform in time.
Why do you do something about Multimac? Why do you start finding developers and try to set and raise a money goal for that project, maybe something similar to what Silvan is doing. If it is going to be an open source project we are going to support it.
I need to do the same thing about WPS Classes and I never said that is going to be absolutely free. It seems that nobody read the http://openwarp.blogspot.com/ before criticizing. I want to set a goal for the WPS development but I haven't find a developers that wants to help on this yet.
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