Author Topic: Updated Uniaud32 build  (Read 161382 times)

ivan

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #990 on: October 25, 2022, 05:42:50 pm »
Hi Mark,

Further my statement that HDMI works without problems on all 8 of the computers I have tried it on maybe I should have stated that the video chip is part of the main processor (all Ryzen 3 variants with built in video).  I don't know if that changes anything but I haven't had a video card in a computer since AMD brought out their Vega graphics on the processor.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #991 on: October 25, 2022, 10:01:05 pm »
Hi Mark,

Further my statement that HDMI works without problems on all 8 of the computers I have tried it on maybe I should have stated that the video chip is part of the main processor (all Ryzen 3 variants with built in video).  I don't know if that changes anything but I haven't had a video card in a computer since AMD brought out their Vega graphics on the processor.

Hi Ivan, sorry but I got lost on the conversation and I want to understand it right.

Is the Audio output of the HDMI working on the 8 computers you tried? Since this is the UniAud32 thread I think we are discussion the audio output on HDMI with this driver, right?
If you are experiencing Audio output on the HDMI with ArcaOS and UniAud, what do you use in your settings?

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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Mark Szkolnicki

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #992 on: October 26, 2022, 02:09:23 am »
Heh Martin!

Hi Ivan, sorry but I got lost on the conversation and I want to understand it right.

Is the Audio output of the HDMI working on the 8 computers you tried? Since this is the UniAud32 thread I think we are discussion the audio output on HDMI with this driver, right?
If you are experiencing Audio output on the HDMI with ArcaOS and UniAud, what do you use in your settings?

Regards

The question that Ivan was answering about video may have some bearing on whether HDMI audio is possible, so may not really be off topic.

I asked the question as to whether we can use HDMI at all under ArcaOS.

As it is used mostly for video first in all systems, having HDMI video working for at least one person shows that transmitting using an HDMI cable is at least possible under ArcaOS. As Paul mentioned a few posts back, the ability to transmit the audio component may be missing at the moment under ArcaOS for whatever reason.

I know HDMI video is very high resolution, but does that also apply to the audio fidelity as well? Or is the audio the same as through the normal cables and speakers, and just piggybacks in the HDMI cable for convenience? I don't believe Ivan was saying he could access audio via HDMI, but I will be interested in his answer.

I'm also curious as to how that is implemented USB wise, as USB for years has functioned universally to transmit a variety of signals and functions. As it seems transmitting both video and audio is done by the same cable in HDMI, I was wondering whether it is a matter of programming, and if so, where should the code reside. I will be interested in seeing what Lars is up to in the USB Audio thread (which I have nothing to participate with - no USB Audio based equipment here at the moment)

Best!

M
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Mark Szkolnicki

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #993 on: October 26, 2022, 02:13:27 am »
Hi Ivan!

Hi Mark,

Further my statement that HDMI works without problems on all 8 of the computers I have tried it on maybe I should have stated that the video chip is part of the main processor (all Ryzen 3 variants with built in video).  I don't know if that changes anything but I haven't had a video card in a computer since AMD brought out their Vega graphics on the processor.

That's interesting

Most of the ASUS motherboards I've bought have on-board video, but not on-board the processor - as most are Radeon variants I probably don't need a video card either, but I still use them.

Like the audio functions, I probably could deep six most of my other cards - too old fashion in my thinking I guess.

M
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 04:02:46 am by Mark Szkolnicki »
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Eugene Tucker

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #994 on: October 26, 2022, 02:45:37 am »
Mark, Some have claimed the onboard video has better performance than the video cards. Especially with the display port used.

Dave Yeo

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #995 on: October 26, 2022, 03:49:01 am »
For HDMI video to work with our drivers likely depends on the hardware/firmware and seems to usually work though Paul reported only one of his 2 HDMI ports worked for him.
Display Port is similar to HDMI and only needs a passive connector to convert.
As the audio is carried on the same wires as the video. On Display Port it is inserted into the video blanking part of the signal. Video blanking on a CRT was when the electron beam shut off and went from the bottom of the screen to the top to draw the next frame, so a brief pause in video every frame. Games and such (our Firefox is supposed to but doesn't) also use that period for doing calculations etc.
USB C has an alternative mode which amongst other things, can act like a Display Port cable, this is how monitors are hooked up via USB 3+, so not really USB, but rather Display Port (or HDMI) transmitted over the USB C cable. Sound would work the same as normal Display Port and likely HDMI, multiplexed into the video signal, so the video hardware/sofware needs to be involved. This is different from USB audio that Lars works on by my understanding.
HDMI audio seems quite diverse according to wiki, it is all optional but to quote wiki, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI
Quote
For digital audio, if an HDMI device has audio, it is required to implement the baseline format: stereo (uncompressed) PCM. Other formats are optional, with HDMI allowing up to 8 channels of uncompressed audio at sample sizes of 16 bits, 20 bits, or 24 bits, with sample rates of 32 kHz, 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz, or 192 kHz.[5]: §7  HDMI also carries any IEC 61937-compliant compressed audio stream, such as Dolby Digital and DTS, and up to 8 channels of one-bit DSD audio (used on Super Audio CDs) at rates up to four times that of Super Audio CD.[5]: §7  With version 1.3, HDMI allows lossless compressed audio streams Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.[5]: §7  As with the Y′CBCR video, audio capability is optional. Audio return channel (ARC) is a feature introduced in the HDMI 1.4 standard.[41] "Return" refers to the case where the audio comes from the TV and can be sent "upstream" to the AV receiver using the HDMI cable connected to the AV receiver.[41] An example given on the HDMI website is that a TV that directly receives a terrestrial/satellite broadcast, or has a video source built in, sends the audio "upstream" to the AV receiver.[41]

Arca Noae does have updated video drivers (Intel at first) on their roadmap, when they find time I guess. At that point they may well add audio support to HDMI and Display Port.
BTW, my 1900x1200 monitor looks much better then VGA (mostly sharper, especially full screen text like during boot) using the Display Port and a DVI converter to hook into the DVI monitor plug. It is slightly broken compared to VGA, X doesn't see the VGA bios and while the screensaver can turn off my monitor, it won't turn back on except by rebooting.

Andi B.

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #996 on: October 26, 2022, 05:17:42 pm »
Quote
Display Port is similar to HDMI and only needs a passive connector to convert.
You mixed up DVI with DP (Display Port). DP is quite different compared to DVI and HDMI. HDMI uses the same electrical signals as DVI has used before. So a simple passive converter can be used to interchange them. For video signals that is. DVI does not support audio officially.

For DP to HDMI the the graphic chip/motherboard has to detect a external adapter and switch different (HDMI) output signals to the DP connector. Not all motherboard can do this. Don't count on this special function. It's not mandatory.

Mark Szkolnicki

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #997 on: October 26, 2022, 06:52:33 pm »
Heh Andy!

Quote
Display Port is similar to HDMI and only needs a passive connector to convert.
You mixed up DVI with DP (Display Port). DP is quite different compared to DVI and HDMI. HDMI uses the same electrical signals as DVI has used before. So a simple passive converter can be used to interchange them. For video signals that is. DVI does not support audio officially.

For DP to HDMI the the graphic chip/motherboard has to detect a external adapter and switch different (HDMI) output signals to the DP connector. Not all motherboard can do this. Don't count on this special function. It's not mandatory.

As Martin would say, perhaps we're getting a little off topic as the discussion was really about audio and HDMI, given what Paul is trying to accomplish in adding HDMI audio support in UniAud32.

I was curious as to what you think may need to be accomplished to access audio through HDMI - I know Arca Noae has a version of SNAP that needs updating on the bucket list and of course Panorama - do you think either of these drivers could be updated to interleave audio support through HDMI, as it seems is being done in Linux. Or would there need to be a separate solution, using a different approach? Or is it not really possible in ArcaOS, through video drivers or otherwise?

The discussion seems to have turned to the fine points of video design (which I find interesting being a hardware geek), but its because one cable is being used to carry all the signals, similar I assume to USB design. IOW HDMI video and associated audio, if we want both delivered, seem to be inextricably linked.

I'm not a programmer, but I have been a senior project manager, so I'm taking that approach to this discussion - it seems from what Ivan said that he can access HDMI video signals so by corollary I'm assuming that it should be possible to add audio support as well through HDMI. I think the discussion is really about how, assuming it is possible.

Best!

M
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Andi B.

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #998 on: October 27, 2022, 09:45:21 am »
Quote
I was curious as to what you think may need to be accomplished to access audio through HDMI - I know Arca Noae has a version of SNAP that needs updating on the bucket list and of course Panorama - do you think either of these drivers could be updated to interleave audio support through HDMI,
I don't know how the Linux guys do it but given the system design thinking about the basics. The system design is as following
- audio card/chip is digitally connected via PCI(e) to the CPU and the output analog audio goes straight to the attached connectors (yes there's also a digital stream to S/PDIF but that's a completely different thing than digital PCI(e)
- video card/chip is connected via PCI(e) to the CPU and the outputs of these chips go straight to there associated connectors

Video chip is controlled by the video driver, audio chip by the audio driver (which have to work together with the multimedia subsystem). Now you ask for a cooperative video driver and a cooperative audio driver. Audio drivers should send audio data to the video chip at the same the the video driver operates it. Both data streams have to be synchronized and proper mixed together in the video chip (to be more precise feed into the video output DVI/HDMI LVDS driver which today most probably is integrated into the video chip).

I'm mostly a hardware designer and system designer but did professional software development too. I'm not the Linux expert and not the in dept expert of PC hardware I was years ago. But to me this all looks way to complex for us (OS/2 developers) to spent a lot of thinking about. I know some things about our video drivers and think David has a lot of more important things to do than thinking about the quirks of mixing some audio stream into some video chip. I'm pretty sure there is NIL BIOS support for that so I see no chance to make such thing happen with Panorama. In theory with SNAP and a special video chip driver there would be more options. But if you think about the huge problems to improve only small pieces in SNAP, it's pretty clear that even if someone could reanimate SNAP there would be tons of other more important problems to solve before.

Btw. personally I circumvent these crappy consumer interface HDMI as much as I can. I participated the invention of this interface during my active career in consumer electronics. I know the reason why it was made and for which use cases it is good for. And so for the few times I use my PC for audio reproduction I prefer my AV-Receiver connected via S/PDIF with the attached big speakers over any monitor built in lowest end speaker. So take my thoughts above as strongly biased ;-)

Mark Szkolnicki

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #999 on: October 27, 2022, 08:35:17 pm »
Heh Andy!

Btw. personally I circumvent these crappy consumer interface HDMI as much as I can. I participated the invention of this interface during my active career in consumer electronics. I know the reason why it was made and for which use cases it is good for. And so for the few times I use my PC for audio reproduction I prefer my AV-Receiver connected via S/PDIF with the attached big speakers over any monitor built in lowest end speaker. So take my thoughts above as strongly biased ;-)

A most complete and eloquent statement of the facts, Sir!

I don't see a lot of synergies that we can draw on here, considering that most of the developments we've drawn upon are based on a Linux base which is being actively developed in a different direction, and from which we are attempting to adopt and adapt a patchwork of fixes for OS/2 / eCS / ArcaOS which has been ported by a lot of very talented people ...... but they are not miracle workers.  :P

If someone comes up with a solution, I can now see it will be very interesting to observe - but I'm not holding my breath. And having a strong but informed bias is merely stating the facts that you know - having used this OS for going on over 30 years and running my own company for 28 years, its a trait I appreciate!  8)

Best and Thanks!

M
« Last Edit: October 27, 2022, 08:40:59 pm by Mark Szkolnicki »
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Paul Smedley

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #1000 on: November 06, 2022, 05:08:45 am »
Not major code changes, but I updated the uniaud32 code to 6.0.7 - https://smedley.id.au/tmp/uniaud32-linux-6.0.7-20221106.zip

OS4User

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #1001 on: November 06, 2022, 09:50:43 am »
Not major code changes, but I updated the uniaud32 code to 6.0.7 - https://smedley.id.au/tmp/uniaud32-linux-6.0.7-20221106.zip

it works ok for me

Eugene Tucker

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #1002 on: November 06, 2022, 02:18:02 pm »
Paul this is the best drop yet. Sounds very good. No new issues.

Mark Szkolnicki

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #1003 on: November 08, 2022, 04:32:24 am »
Heh Paul!

Not major code changes, but I updated the uniaud32 code to 6.0.7 - https://smedley.id.au/tmp/uniaud32-linux-6.0.7-20221106.zip

Nothing broke here with the new release, as expected, Sir.

The various quirks with the Soundblaster cards remain the same - I've given up for the moment on filing tickets, as the automated system for signing up to gaining access to TRAC is broken and I've had no follow-up from Adrian after three weeks.

Hope your having a more pleasant start to the week - have had 50 cm of snow since November 2, high winds and wind chills, and expecting lows of -28 C overnight. So much for sunny, bare ground and 14 C on Halloween, only 7 days ago ...........  ???

Best!

M

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Paul Smedley

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Re: Updated Uniaud32 build
« Reply #1004 on: November 08, 2022, 09:35:43 am »
Hi Mark!

That weather sounds hideous! We've just had our first tast of summer, with a couple of days above 30C - it's been glorious!

Sorry about the issues with Trac - I've now created a Uniaud32 project at my own bug tracker - https://mantis.smedley.id.au - please raise issues there.

Cheers,

Paul