Author Topic: Powerline combo with POE?  (Read 1458 times)

Mathias

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Powerline combo with POE?
« on: August 14, 2020, 09:47:50 pm »
Going away from Wifi (also due to Warpnes) I've tried out Powerline dapters in our familiy for couching in the evening.
We came to the conclusion: That stuff rocks, even with android tablets!

The connection is WAY better and lag free, especially when our son is playing tablet online games. ; )

Problem is though, the USB LAN adapter s*cks out more tablet battery power than the Wifi connection. (No problem for Notebooks though.)
That leads to one problem... you can use Powerline until the tablet battery runs out. Then wifi needs to be re-enabled and an USB charger needs to be connected, so the tablet does not die due to power shortagae.

So I came to the question, is there something such like PowerLine with Power over Ethernet (POE)? - And YES there is. - Cool! *__*
But.. are there also USB LAN "cards" supported by Android that can make use of POE LAN?
If so, you'd be able to even CHARGE the tablet while using the network without mobile data or wifi, but with Powerline + POE. How cool would that be?!

Did anybody have experiences with that already?

Dave Yeo

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2020, 12:54:30 am »
Could you use a USB hub?

ivan

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2020, 08:28:02 pm »
Hi Mathias,

A few observations.  I assume you have been using the WiFi from your internet router and not a professional grade EAP.  If that is correct it does explain your problems with multiple wireless connections.

As far as I know there is no POE USB lan adapters and even if there were they would not be of use to you (POE is usually 32 volts and yout tablets need 5 volts for charging).

It appears that you need something like the "Micro USB HUB Adaptor with Power" except with the correct plug for the tablets.  You can then plug in the tablet charger as well as the USB lan adapter and carry on as you have been (just be careful of all the cables  ;) )
« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 03:58:46 pm by Martin Iturbide »

Mathias

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2020, 02:20:59 pm »
That USB hub is awesome. xD - Never seen anything like that.
Looks like some kind of power injection to USB. - I knew there are power injectors for twisted pair, but for USB also? Nice! :D

Hmm.. worth a try for 10 EUR.. - If that works, this could be a solution.
Thank you guys for giving this a thought!

ivan, nope it's just a third party TPLink Access Point. My ISP's router does not offer Wifi in its' current mode.
Would you say that a better wifi router could overpower the other wifi networks around?
I mean.. I can scroll through a looong list on wifi networks near by. :o
Appears like eeeeverybody here tries to wifi his way through all the others.
Debugging with a wifi detector app, I can see the networks are everywhere.. on all frequencies.
And sometimes some neighbours even have better range than I do (standing nebrary to my access point! at 100% maxed send power allowed in DE)

I mean, sure I could start or join the antenna war. (Who's got the biggest one?? :p) - But I'd rather go a different way. Should also be more healthy than wifi rays all day at work AND at home at all times.
There still are rays from all the neighbours, but rather than participating, I'd try the good old cable way. hehe

Andi B.

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2020, 03:02:32 pm »
Quote
But I'd rather go a different way. Should also be more healthy than wifi rays all day at work AND at home at all times.
There still are rays from all the neighbours, but rather than participating, I'd try the good old cable way. hehe

As long as people use mobile phones you really shouldn't care about radiation from WIFI or DECT devices. They all transmit lower power by magnitudes compared to mobile phones. OTOH with WIFI you know the radiated power as it is limited by regulations. With Powerline there is also a lot of radiation but you don't know the levels cause it depends on the antenna. Which in this case is your private power line cable installation running through your rooms.

The only 'good old cable way' would be Ethernet on defined cables like CAT5 or similar.

Mathias

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2020, 10:04:39 pm »
Hmm.. as far as I know, some Powerline Adapters also are access points.
When you de-activate this function, the only way transmitting data is via the power line. Power lines in DE are well shielded. (we have tested)

Also I am not sitting directly near the power outlet, so I guess the low frequency rays produced by the psu/cpu of the notebook or tablet have way greater radiation than a not-so-well-shielded copper LAN cable leading from the power outlet to my LAN2USB adapter. : )

So, since this is lower frequency, and Wifi is high frequency 2,4G, 5G this should be way worse for the human body's cells.

Thing is also.. this is all not a problem as long as one does not stay within rays all day long. But I do... atleast 8 hours at work, I cannot do anything about that, so atleast at home it would be nice not to have huge wifi antennas (higher frequency rays) as well.

Unfortunately our neighbours do not care and/or know much about this (typical for elderly people (main thing it works.. good chance they still have the default password set for admin access :p)) and so their router and wifi antennas are at full power all day long.
This cannot be healthy. Not only they have their routers unconfigured (wifi networks are partly overlapping), but also do not turn off the wifi antenna over night, which is a thread for human cells. They can rest best (at night) when ray emissions are low enough.
I have a collegue at work who's got both.. ray measurement instruments for low and high frequencies.. and his high frequency measurement equipment showed a 1.000 times higher ray emissions on top of my bed than it should be (according to health tables). Unfortunately I cannot do much about this. :/
My only comfort is, that this value is still within german regulations for wifi... which are like all regulations.. made by lobby organisations for the industry that produced these devices... which renders them useless from the start.

Anyway. This should not be our point.
Let's remain at the topic :>

Andi B.

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2020, 11:22:14 am »
Although I don't want to discuss this further in this thread I can't resist to point at some technical wrong assumptions you stated here. Power lines are usually not shielded in private homes. This is true in DE too. Data transfer over power lines is done by modulation of some high frequency carrier signal. It's not in any case the well known 50Hz power line frequency and the (well defined and limited by standards) part of harmonics and distortions produced by switching power supplies or similar equipment which makes any significant radiation. It's the powerline carrier signal which isn't bound to the power cables and which is radiated uncontrolled from the whole power line installation. As power line installations are not build up symmetrically by design (in contrast to f.i. (U)TP LAN cables) they radiate this high frequency carrier in a totally uncontrolled way. As it all depends on the specific power line installation there are no standard limits which can be defined for any given installation (in contrary to all wireless devices which uses well defined antennas).

If anyone has any fear on radiation from electronic devices he should keep in mind that by far most radiation is produced by mobile phones (more then 10 times than wifi and so on). Moreover mobile phones are hold near the body where no other wireless transmitter is placed that near. Anyone knows how to handle a spectrum analyzer or anyone who have a clue about EMV (radiation and susceptibility) knows the facts and can show you the truth. Please don't spread or share any conspiracy theory about radiation. Deal with the facts.
Quote
This cannot be healthy
If you don't believe the numerous studies about that, no problem. But don't neglect the physics. Measure the values of radiation of different types of equipment (use spectrum analyzers and calibrated antennas for that, not any voodoo black box without display of frequency and level) and then concentrate on the strongest transmitters at your place. F.i. I know the mobile phone from your neighbor produces HF peaks more than ten times greater than his wifi AP. What nobody knows is how strong the electromagnetically field of your powerline adapters is in your house. Maybe it's much stronger than all wifi devices nearby, or similar, or below. It all depends on your specific power line installation.

Don't believe in some "Esoteriker mit Aluhut" with some home brew black box. Measure the physic facts. Of course you need an technical understanding about data transmission technologies, electromagnetically radiation and antennas. Based on your postings I'm pretty sure you don't have this unfortunately. Additionally you would have to know the medicinal expertise to judge which frequency and which burst in which intensity does have which influence to our biological system known as human being.

Sorry for being OT. But the internet is full of conspiracy theories and lies. We have to be careful what we consume and whom we believe. Best source of information is scientific research and understanding natural science and physics. Don't believe in Fakebook postings or youtoube videos without checking the facts. Of course don't believe the lies some people are spreading over Twitter again and again. And don't think powerline does not radiate high frequency radiation ;-)

Mathias

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2020, 12:43:45 pm »
Thanks Andi for letting me know!
Always interesting to hear different people about this topic. (Maybe we should rename the topic :>)

It's always a problem, people treat such stuff as it would be their religion and spread rumours on a believable way.
Of course this only works with people that..
1) have no clue and
2) do not have the time to verify these exact topics.

... like I am! I have no clue and no time to verify. Also I find it difficult to get myself some trusty studies on that topic.
I do, however, have heard from collegues and THIS collegue especially. Some say mobile phone and wifi rays are completely safe, as they need to meet regulations, some others say: OMG go away with that, BECAUSE... [place some trusty sounding stuff here, that.. if you think about it, still sounds trusty].
As a noob, I have problems whom to trust.
The only option would be to go out and read oneself in.

Problem is, this is quite a vast field of new stuff to read into, especially with radiation and how rays are emmitted.
I've heard it even matters in which way the rays are measured.

First problem to face: Whom do you believe? Official sources, that only(?) tell you about officially validated values of highest radiation allowed for Wifi, DECT and mobile phones, or do you want to look behind these values and see what other countries have. Weirdly these can differ from country to country. - But why would they? Are polish people way easier to radiate (which is nonsense xD), or why did they have WAY lower maximum values for allowed radiation? Some months ago, Poland merged their regulations to fit european standards now... which allow higher radiation (like in Germany).

First noob question from me: How is that possible? Either a radiation at a specific level IS not healthy anymore OR it is still within healthy boundaries.
And second noob question: Who tells what is still healthy? Governments can't do this, as they have no clue about nerd things.. so they ask lobby organisations or even producers of such hardware what they THINK is still healthy.
But of course they want to sell their stuff, so they define their stuff to still emmit in healthy regions?

I still remember the japanese government to RAISE the allowed radiation limits AFTER the blowout in Fukushima, just to tell people "you are still safe! See? These are the safe values.. and look what we have measured! Don't panic. It's all still fine."
Even mainstream media reported that the measured values would atleast be classified as RISKY, applying the old maximum values... but of course are classified as SAFE with the new maximum.

Anyway. I've looked around for studies about health topics for Wifi and mobile phone rays, and the result was: Some studies come to the conclusion that mobile phones are a health RISK, especially 5G, and some others say its totally safe.
But whom to believe now? It's all a complete mess, as those who pay for these studies, do have their own interests.

All I know is that insurances won't insure against wifi rays/mobile phone rays. The official statement is: "We do not know if this is healthy or not."... which already is like Oh god.. why would they say this? They should have enough money to pay nerds that understand such stuff, or laboratories to test such things on their own.. if they cannot find any trusty study.

However... if insurance companies deny to insure something, it's generally a good idea to step back a little, as they are wealthy companies and should know the risks or be able to get the knowledge, as they usually insure ANYTHING but wifi/phone rays and nuclear power plants. : ] - There is even a insurance that covers aging on hollywood stars' body parts (yes, head that Madonna has her *ss insured for instance, on german mainstream TV)


--> Anyway. At the moment I have two contrary statements, and so it looks like I need to get my own measurement equipment (for low and high frequencies) to do my own checks on a frequent basis. - And of course I need to find sources of believable knowledge on that topic.

My collegue at work, who told me all of this, and showed believable statistics, used to work at a company that produces power generators, power houses and shieldings for those. Back then measuring this stuff became a hobby for him.
Because low frequency radiation limits were abused on a regular basis, he quit there for health reasons. Now he's working as a software developer at our place, and is radiated with high frequency rays like wifi and mobile phones for atleast 8 hours per day. Choose what delivers cancer quicker... ; )

Andi, can you suggest equipment for measurement and also link trusty documentation to read?

ivan

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2020, 04:56:40 pm »
Hi Mathias,

This is getting into the region of the surreal and the LNT or Linear No Threshold models which essentially say that even if a person is Never exposed to something, there remains a finite risk of death.  Those models have been used by those that fear a nuclear war and cited as the reason we shouldn't have such things a nuclear power plants .  You mention Fukushima disaster in which the only people to die were those killed by their houses collapsing on them - there has been no evidence of radiation induced cancers, indeed why should there be since we are being irradiated each day from sunrise  to sunset because the sun is a whopping great nuclear furnace that blasts out more radiation than we can make.

The biggest problem that mankind has is induced fear by the fearful.

Andy Willis

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2020, 04:58:56 am »
Going away from Wifi (also due to Warpnes) I've tried out Powerline dapters in our familiy for couching in the evening.
We came to the conclusion: That stuff rocks, even with android tablets!

The connection is WAY better and lag free, especially when our son is playing tablet online games. ; )

Problem is though, the USB LAN adapter s*cks out more tablet battery power than the Wifi connection. (No problem for Notebooks though.)
That leads to one problem... you can use Powerline until the tablet battery runs out. Then wifi needs to be re-enabled and an USB charger needs to be connected, so the tablet does not die due to power shortagae.

So I came to the question, is there something such like PowerLine with Power over Ethernet (POE)? - And YES there is. - Cool! *__*
But.. are there also USB LAN "cards" supported by Android that can make use of POE LAN?
If so, you'd be able to even CHARGE the tablet while using the network without mobile data or wifi, but with Powerline + POE. How cool would that be?!

Did anybody have experiences with that already?

These are the ones I use (one is usbc, the other microusb):
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07V35DH5F/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
In case it isn't loadable in all countries:   UCTRONICS USB-C PoE Splitter Gigabit, PoE to USB-C 5V/4A Power Supply for Raspberry Pi 4 and More, 802.3at Power Over Ethernet to USB Type-C Adapter
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N5AMCLT/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
AuviPal Gigabit PoE Splitter (2 Pack), PoE to Micro USB 5V Power and 10/100/1000Mbps Ethernet Adapter for Raspberry Pi, Fire TV Ethernet Adapter, Chromecast, Wyze Cam v2, Arlo 2 Pro, NanoPi and More

ivan

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2020, 05:40:21 pm »
Hi Andy,

Nice kit but the problem is connecting it to a tablet that only has one USB port for connecting to the outside world.  It might work with the something like the unit I mentioned earlier but all it would do is cut out the tablet charger.

Now, if there was one of those that combined the USB ethernet and charger and outputted them to a single OTG USB plug it would be more than interesting.

Andy Willis

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2020, 06:02:36 pm »
Hi Andy,

Nice kit but the problem is connecting it to a tablet that only has one USB port for connecting to the outside world.  It might work with the something like the unit I mentioned earlier but all it would do is cut out the tablet charger.

Now, if there was one of those that combined the USB ethernet and charger and outputted them to a single OTG USB plug it would be more than interesting.

The microUSB I use with the magicjack, so is fine for that.  It has been a few months since I used it, so I forgot a piece for the USB-C that I use for my phone.  In addition to the above that splits the power and ethernet, I forgot I plug that into:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HNSFDNC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
which allows power passthrough and is the actual ethernet adapter for the phone... as well as providing USB ports and HDMI (that I occasionally connect to my TV or monitor).

Mathias

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2020, 10:06:39 pm »
Hehe very cool Andy! Thank you! So this shows a POE splitter DOES work with Android as it should on paper. Very good. I'm going to try this out. : )

ivan

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2020, 09:25:47 am »
One small problem, I have yet to find a tablet with a USB C port, all my Samsung units have Micro USB ports.  It would work, I expect, with a USB C to Micro USB adapter but that just makes it more complicated.
 

Heikki Kekki

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Re: Powerline combo with POE?
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2020, 09:50:42 am »
One small problem, I have yet to find a tablet with a USB C port, all my Samsung units have Micro USB ports.  It would work, I expect, with a USB C to Micro USB adapter but that just makes it more complicated.
I have Lenovo Yoga Tab (Lenovo Tablet YT-X703L) with USB C port.