OS/2, eCS & ArcaOS - Technical > Programming
Closed source parts of eComStation
Fr4nk:
Thanks Doug this is exactly what I think.
To demand is always easy - to fulfill is not. We should eat humble pie and, be realistic and focus on the things we really need in this moment.
For things like several virtual machines on one computer there are much better platforms than os2, with better hardware support, better supported virtualization software and better memory management. And as this topic is a moving target eCS will never compete with these systems. We are a handful of people. Most of the new ported applications are completely untested. The eCS core features are reliability, WPS, Rexx, special and unique programs, small requirements. Thats it what I would try to support and to expose.
You can say 4GB limit is a bug, you can also says it is great that eCS needs only 2 GB. Its a feature. It is a damn good thing that eCS don't wastes your RAM. It really good that we don't have this helix with more hardware requirements with each version and reciprocal upgrades in hard and software (news OS needs new hardware, new hardware needs new os, endless loop while we doing still the same with our computers without any significant changes) we hate on Windows so much.
Btw im writing this on a computer with 512 MB RAM
dbanet:
--- Quote ---The ball is in your court...
--- End quote ---
I won't argue anymore, but I'm gonna fix some mistakes.
--- Quote ---Well, I think you are being bit optimistic. We don't even have enough developers to get a Wireless NIC working (although that seems to be on the short list).
--- End quote ---
Four developers work on OS/4 kernel for years. Although removing the limit may cost some, because it is a lot of work, it can be accomplished.
--- Quote ---Btw im writing this on a computer with 512 MB RAM
--- End quote ---
Me too. Although, that's how much memory in my laptop is installed right now, I'm gonna upgrade to 2 GiB (the maximum).
--- Quote ---Very recently, the QSINIT project has demonstrated that using memory above the 32 bit addressing limit is possible. That is currently restricted to using it as a RAMDISK, but it has been demonstrated that it does work. More serious work is required to be able to use that memory more productively, and it is likely that programs would need to be modified to use it. Note that this is NOT the ideal solution, but, at the moment, it is the ONLY game in town.
--- End quote ---
It was obvious that using memory above the 32 bit addressing limit is possible, because you can use more than 4 GiB of memory on Windows 32-bit using ramdrive with PAE support by placing the swapfile on it.
Then, the first thing to do was to write a PAE supporting ramdrive, the hd4disk.add driver (which is acutally a standalone project, and it can be used without the Tetris bootloader).
Then, finally, to overcome the 4 GiB limit in the memory manager.
That is a very small cost comparing to rewriting the whole system on 64-bit, or comparing to implementing PAE directly in the memmanager, which would affect the drivers.
--- Quote ---More limiting is the 500 meg memory space for each program (which includes shared memory space).
--- End quote ---
What limit?
Anyway, the memory management subsystem should be rewritten, and removing the 4 GiB barrier should be one of this task's subtargets.
dbanet:
I've tried to be as polite, as I could, and, I hope, the argument is settled.
Martin Iturbide:
There are a lot of things the eCS-OS2 is missing and it is hard to get a priority list since this priority change according the subject's needs.
One thread goes by there are people that think that eCS-OS2 is fine and we only need more drivers and keep patching it. Do not fix what it is not broken.
The other thread (me included) is try to clone as much of OS/2 as open source, even the components that are working. What it is working today will stop working tomorrow, and if we do not have the source code it is going to be harder to fix.
But, no matter on which thread are you, the questions that we should ask are:
- Can you pull it off?
- Can you code the driver or the close source replacement?
- Can you hire someone that can do the development?
- Do you need help? What do you need?
- Can we pull it off to make a community raise fund for an specific driver or component?
The statement should be "I want to help" and "I can help with this or that".
So, who wants to do it? what do you require? I want to help any open source effort on this platform.
Doug Bissett:
--- Quote ---I won't argue anymore, but I'm gonna fix some mistakes.
--- End quote ---
That was not a challenge to you, specifically (and I am not arguing). It was challenge to the whole OS/2 community, to start helping out on some of these basic projects. It doesn't matter if you fix the 4GB problem (which is a non issue at this time anyway, even in 32 bit windows - it is only the server versions that use PAE, unless Win8 has started using it). It will take years for anybody to port enough software to use it, and new development seems to be a thing of the past.
More important, are things like support for the majority of NICs that exist today, and in the future. Without communication (especially wireless), nobody will be able to continue using eCS. It just won't do the job. It can't always do the job today, without wireless communications. There are keyboard problems, there are video problems, there are printer problems. Somebody had better start fixing all of them, or eCS will be as dead as IBM, and Microsoft, wishes it was.
--- Quote ---Four developers work on OS/4 kernel for years.
--- End quote ---
Yes, and they are 4 developers who are wasting their time, if the more basic problems are not fixed soon. I don't want to discourage you, but these other, more basic, problems are going to kill the whole thing, before you get finished with what you are doing. Trying to get users back, after they go through the pain of going somewhere else, is not an easy job, as the current eCS project demonstrates. It is possible that we have already lost the critical mass to be able to maintain eCS as a viable project, and fixing the 4 GB barrier, today, would not prevent users from leaving, simply to get their WiFi adapter to work. Other things are going to become more important, in the next year, or two (USB 3.0, Bluetooth, WLAN), which haven't even been addressed, yet, although USB 3.0 is planned. You could have 64 GB of memory, that is usable, but that is not as useful as WiFi support, for the average power user, who would rarely, if ever, actually use 3 GB of memory, never mind 64 GB of memory. Personally, I find that I never use 2 GB of memory, unless I start a VBox, with a large memory assigned. That means that having a RAMDISK for the swap file, that will never be used, is not really going to help much.
What I am trying to get at, is that your 4 programmers could accomplish a lot more by working on other projects, that the average user will find useful, than to spend time messing around with breaking the 4 GB barrier, which won't do anybody any good, until a lot of other things get fixed (compilers, linkers). Those things are badly broken today, which limits porting, and new programming. anyway, and that discourages users from remaining in the OS/2 user group.
--- Quote ---So, who wants to do it? what do you require? I want to help any open source effort on this platform.
--- End quote ---
It doesn't matter if these things are open source, or not. If they don't happen, eCS becomes less, and less, usable, and that means that more, and more, users must go elsewhere so they can do what needs to be done. Why would they even consider coming back? Sure, open source is desirable, but those who do the job need to make a living. We don't have corporate support, like Linux does, and most development is being done on a volunteer basis (even Linux is not 100% open source). Mensys has stepped up, and they have paid to get some necessary things done, but they don't have unlimited funds either. Mensys has committed to open sourcing what they pay for, and AFAIK, they have done that. What they haven't done, is make binaries available to those who don't pay for eCS. To me, that is a really good compromise. They do need to have a reason for users to buy eCS, and pay for Software Subscription, which pays for the development, as well as the wages of a couple of people who are doing a great job of holding it all together. I am pretty sure, that eCS is a non profit project, for Mensys, and they spend as much as possible on development, without running the company into bankruptcy. Is it enough? Probably not, and that is where the users need to step up, and do more to help out, if they want to keep eCS going.
The main problem is that there is not enough money, or people, to do any more than what is being done today. That is not enough to even keep up with the important stuff, never mind make advances that are not necessary, even though they may become necessary, eventually. Like it, or not, Mensys is the focal point, and if they find that they cannot cover their costs, eCS will be gone. That would leave OS/2, in all of it's forms, with no option but to pass into history.
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