OS/2, eCS & ArcaOS - Technical > Setup & Installation
Is eComStation DEAD?
Doug Bissett:
I think you are missing something: IBM owns OS/2 (I will ignore the Microsoft parts). If you include any part of the existing OS/2, in a new distribution, you need a license to do that (Serenity Sytems, or Mensys, has that license today, and I expect that IBM would not allow them to sell it, or even give it away).
Okay, you propose to replace all parts that are still copyright by IBM. The only problem with that, is that you are looking at roughly 100 man years of development to get it all done, and tested. Even if it takes half that time, and you can find 10 developers who are willing to do it, for free, that is 5 years (working around the clock) before anything, except the odd update to the current eCS, for those who already have a license, can be released. 5 years, with no new users (remember that you can only include the stuff that is not part of OS/2), and a loss of those who just can't wait that long, will mean that the user base will be insufficient to support such an effort. Then, there is the question about how long the current PC will exist. I expect that personal devices (tablets, phones, and wrist computers) will replace what we know today, in the near future (5 years). We would also lose a great number of commercial customers, who can't afford to be caught using unlicensed (or even questionable) software. Some of them also require it to pass reliability tests, and other things, so they would be scrambling to find an alternative. They are probably pushing the envelope already, and they likely would not come back.
It is suggested that "Abandon ware" will cover it. I am no lawyer, but I expect that there is a waiting period (starting when Mensys abandons it, and IBM refuses to issue a new license), before it can be considered to be abandoned.
Time is the main enemy, followed closely by the lack of manpower to do the job.
--- Quote ---I don't know why people think that if it is not a company behind OS/2-eCS we are doom.
--- End quote ---
You have obviously never dealt with IBM. They never really embraced the open source concept, and they are not likely to pay lawyers to clear the way for what you propose. In fact, I am not so sure that they ever got over "the IBM PC is just a toy" concept. If it doesn't make a dollar, they just won't do it. That probably also means that they won't chase an individual, as long as they don't get too carried away, but including copies of an IBM copyright product, with some other package, without paying royalties, forces them to take legal action. If they don't, that would open the doors for anybody to use any of their copyright material, for whatever purpose they like. IBM just can't afford to let that happen.
So, the other option, is to let the user obtain an appropriate version of OS/2, on the open market, then package eCS (I will call it that) as an add on, that does not include the base OS (and that will be completely useless, on it's own). One of the problems could be the availability of fix packs etc. Of course, as the base OS gets replaced, more of it can be included in the new package. After all (or most) parts of the existing OS/2 get replaced, the package will be complete, and the user will no longer need a copy of OS/2 to supply parts that have not been replaced. See my previous time, and manpower, estimates - which are likely on the low side. Meanwhile, time marches on, eCS has gained very little ground, and has probably lost a lot of users, simply because they can't wait for results.
I suggest that we wait, for a while, to see what Mensys or XEU, actually does. It is likely that no decisions have been made, yet, and we should get some sort of statement from them, when a decision is made.
I see three possible scenarios:
1) They will just shut down eComStation, and remove it from internet access.
2) They will shut down eComStation, and make the project available to the public (that may depend on what the contract with IBM says).
3) They will continue as it has been.
If 1), we will need to start over from the beginning.
If 2), somebody will need to pick it up, and run with it. No small feat, and there would be a learning curve to deal with.
If 3), we still have the same problems that we have today.
So, it won't hurt to try replacing parts of OS/2. Some have already been done, but finding someone who would even consider doing the job has proven to be difficult, and a lot of them would want to keep their work closed source. I don't see that starting with the WPS would be a good idea. It is too big, although XWorkplace is a probably a good start. Parts like the TCP stack would make more sense, but that is pretty specialized. CMD.EXE has a replacement in 4OS2, but there are incompatibilities that need to be addressed (perhaps that would be a good place to start though). There are a lot of drivers that could be tackled, but we desperately need new drivers for new devices, and that is proving to be more work than expected, so old device drivers that still work, get ignored. It seems that OS2LDR and OS2KRNL, are under way, and have been for some years, with some success, even with the questions about the legality of the OS4 project.
I guess we need a priority list, that can be picked by those who are willing, and able, to do the job. Some of that has been tried on OS2world, with minor success. Mensys has picked up some of the very important things (ACPI, AHCI, Multimac, Firefox), but there is much more that needs to be done, and soon. Paul Smedley has been looking at Multimac, but there are a few problems to sort out, and he certainly doesn't have the time that is necessary. At the current rate, I figure that 100 man years of work, will take close to 300 years to get it all finished.
Again: Time is the main enemy, followed closely by the lack of manpower to do the job.
Martin Iturbide:
--- Quote from: Doug Bissett on February 02, 2014, 11:54:50 pm ---I think you are missing something: IBM owns OS/2 (I will ignore the Microsoft parts). If you include any part of the existing OS/2, in a new distribution, you need a license to do that (Serenity Sytems, or Mensys, has that license today, and I expect that IBM would not allow them to sell it, or even give it away).
--- End quote ---
An OEM agreement with IBM is not impossible. Serenity did it on the past, and IBM will love to get money without costs just like they did with eComStation. But you it will be required to make an interesting offer to IBM and find the right contacts. Also, any other OEM company will have to make a commitment in sales and pay to IBM.
--- Quote from: Doug Bissett on February 02, 2014, 11:54:50 pm --- If you include any part of the existing OS/2, in a new distribution, you need a license to do that ...
--- End quote ---
Not necessary. You can create an OS/2 distro without including OS/2 files with a trick.
Crazy idea - Option 2: It can be possible to create a installer that will download IBM files Warp 4.53 fixpack 3 and other and will create an ISO installer for the user. You will not be distributing IBM's files. But that is a crazy idea I don't want to do, it just an idea.
--- Quote from: Doug Bissett on February 02, 2014, 11:54:50 pm ---You have obviously never dealt with IBM.
--- End quote ---
Doug, this are the comments that I want to try to avoid on the forum. Making assumptions on the other. I remember that once I was called "Linux Hater" because I did not liked Linux file system structure implemented on OS/2 RPM, while I like Linux. I worked for IBM for 9 years, I know IBM.
IBM is out of the consumer market and OS/2 is no longer a preferred choice for servers. IBM will only work with a business case and this community or making OS/2 Open Source does not have a business case. I don't know why when I say "Let's make an open source clone of OS/2" everything thinks that "IBM should allow that", or "IBM will not allow that". IBM does not care about this community because we are not a market for them. IBM is out of the discussion, we are not going to hear from them. (but maybe we should send a letter to Ginni ;D )
Watching it as 100 man years maybe right. But looking it into smaller pieces to show progress will create traction and show movement outside this community. And also make more people join to help.
Maybe it is wrong to start with WPS, but just imagine if we send a news outside that says: "50% of WPS is open source now !", or "40% of Presentation Manager had been cloned"... that will bring more notability to the community and will bring more people to help.
I remember that ReactOs was only promoted by Russians on the early years. Now I saw that it has many American contributors, talking on events, showing the software, asking for help, to join, etc.... why we can't do that? they are not genius? they do not have unlimited time or resources? but they have pulled a decent Win32 clone to start with.
I had seen very good atempts to clone OS/2 in the past, but they keep trying to make everything at the same time, PM, SOM, KERNEL, WPS, MMOS2. So the idea will be to only focus on one components, finding developers for it, and raising money to help. The components may run stand alone or over eCS, I really don't care, as long as it is open source to allow derivative works.
Presentation Manager?
SOM?
4OS2 can also be good to replace cmd. It will be a good exercise to see what happens if we replace cmd complete with 4OS2, what is missing? what will stop working?
Martin Iturbide:
Crazy idea - Option 2: Or make an installer that uses Warp 4.52 CD/ISO as a requirements like UpdCD, that will create a new ISO image.
Doug Bissett:
--- Quote ---An OEM agreement with IBM is not impossible. Serenity did it on the past, and IBM will love to get money without costs just like they did with eComStation.
--- End quote ---
There were others who tried earlier. I think that Serenity got it simply because they knew somebody in IBM who was high enough in the company to make it happen. Whether that would, or could, happen again, is highly questionable. Beside that, Serenity may still be the ones who hold that license. That is not clear.
--- Quote ---create a installer that will download IBM files Warp 4.53 fixpack 3
--- End quote ---
Technically pretty simple, but you still need a license to distribute OS/2 to do it.
--- Quote ---Maybe it is wrong to start with WPS, but just imagine if we send a news outside that says: "50% of WPS is open source now !", or "40% of Presentation Manager had been cloned"... that will bring more notability to the community and will bring more people to help.
--- End quote ---
40 or 50% of anything is not going to accomplish much. What good is 50% of a car? You need to start small, with something that can be done, in a reasonable amount of time, and if that attracts enough attention perhaps others will start to help. As I noted, CMD.EXE is relatively small, and a lot of the heavy lifting has already been done. 4OS2.exe does work pretty well, but there are a few incompatibilities that need to be addressed, before it can be called a replacement for CMD.EXE. Start there, and see what happens. Other things that could be done:
ATTRIB.EXE, DISKCOMP.COM, DISKCOPY.COM, EAUTIL.EXE, LABEL.COM, MODE.COM, and MORE.COM. Some of them already have replacements, but they are all part of the big picture.
--- Quote ---Or make an installer that uses Warp 4.52 CD/ISO as a requirements like UpdCD, that will create a new ISO image.
--- End quote ---
That is essentially what Mensys does. The problem is, that you still need the license for OS/2. If IBM stops selling those, you need to depend on the used market, to do it legally, and, you still have the same old problem about supporting newer hardware. It is not impossible, but it would be very difficult to get that idea off the ground, before too many users leave the game. If this project had been started, the day after IBM announced that OS/2 was "dead", you might have had a chance of pulling it off. Even Serenity, and Mensys, may have started too late, and they had a few corporate dollars to support it. To make matters worse, there are a lot of OS/2 users who have refused to support eComStation, but still seem to think that they should have access to all of the goodies that have been created. Mensys has done a great service to the OS/2 community, and they have made most of what they did available, but they do need to have some reason why users would pay them to do those things, and that ends up supporting further development, along with a couple of people who actually coordinate the whole thing.
Now, assuming that Mensys/XEU does pull the plug, we need a strategy that will show results, almost immediately, just to keep the users that are still here. Then, that strategy needs to expand, as quickly as possible, until there are enough interested, capable, people, to actually start to tackle some of the bigger parts that will take longer. Whether it can be done, remains to be seen, but starting with the WPS, and announcing that you have 50% of it (if that is even possible), after two years, is not going to do what you hope for, especially if we still don't have WiFi support.
Dream big, but start small, if you want to succeed.
Sigurd Fastenrath:
It is obvious to me that nothing will change nor will I get a serious information from Mensys / Xeu.com.
Just look at the "anual" discussion last year:
http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,69.msg467.html#msg467
It was just a retorical question as the answer is at hand.
But from what the reality looks like nothing happens and as expected the may be new owners are or the ones in charge are not interested in the community, they just want to sell as much eCS as they can. And this is to fit the needs of industrial clients and not waste time with community things.
The conclusion to me is (and was already before I started this thread): eCS is dead for the community.
For those answering:
- we have to wait for the next release and see what.....
- in the next near furture there will be feature... release....
Just go to the records (e.g. above) during the last 3 years.
I would like to see an OS/2 clone come alive, but I doubt this will happen (unfortunately).
I only wonder why none of the developers - wich are in contact with Mensys or who ever - do still keep quit. May be they are forced to as one of the parts of their contracts. :-X
My intention with this was just to say "Wake up."
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