Author Topic: Is eComStation DEAD?  (Read 95657 times)

David Kiley

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2014, 08:31:25 am »
So I understand the will to see stuff have open source as so much nice OS/2 software died because it was closed source. But open source is not a warranty to keep OS/2 alive.

I totally hear what your saying that big open source projects are usually commercially funded, but I also agree with Martin that if os/2 computing experience has a future it is with open source.
These closed companies can only keep us on a life support path.

Personally I think we need to think outside the box.
Like, the core linux kernel is already mature, with 90% hardware support and support for existing technologies (64 bit etc).
Why not make a new linux distribution, using the already existing technology - and then focuse on specific things that could make it more like os/2?
For example if we the community created a linux distro with a WPS like desktop experience, it would effectly become a new os/2 at least from the user gui experience.

So then instead of having to create a completely new os, now you can just focus all the effort on the desktop experience, since os/2 has a very unique WPS interface that has never been replicated.

And who knows, as we get more users, then you could futher add features, like an os/2 "classic" emulator that can run native os/2 & dos apps - similar to what apple did with os/x.

So yeah.. I think we could aim for a new os called Lin/2 :).

With that kind of strategy we wouldn't be constantly reinventing the wheel, trying to get virtualbox, flash, firefox etc running on the old closed source software.
But could instead focus all that limited effort into creating something new that we the community own.

muffetta

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2014, 09:58:11 am »
Well, in fact it was not a bad idea, instead of wasting time and resources to bring an endless supply of software, which is never 100% working and we always have something wrong, 10 years ago we simply could choose a good alternative hybrid kernel, with a basic structure based on Linux, BSD, or perhaps better yet, the software already exists, no hot water to rediscovery, and we would be limited to just clone the workplaceshell with all its features, SOM included, the sources of which are now available for both software (yes, even the wps, see hobbes!). A team of programmers really motivated, with that code as start-up, probably since 2001 had already made a lot of steps forward (Cinnamon on Linux has a few years of life), including also a layer of compatibility for older OS/2 applications (a kind of OS2Wine)! We will have solved our problem long time ago, we were ready for 64-bit and the new hardware and then we calmly could wait for an OS/2 open source clone without begging to ibm or others. Not to mention that these steps in the meantime, could accelerating the development OSFree. Surely it would have been much less effort than trying to float a boat that was already doomed. Sorry for the outburst, but seeing how things are gone​​, perhaps it would have been much better!

Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #62 on: August 02, 2014, 12:55:08 pm »
Today OS/2 is valuable because it can run on real hardware. There is flow of money, there are developers because it is running on real hardware, there is demand on this alternative OS.

If settle OS/2 to Virtual machine or create WPS for Linux then it will become unnecessary. All developers will go away and .. only the developer of WPS front-end will stay alive.

dbanet

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2014, 01:29:36 pm »
the workplaceshell with all its features, SOM included, the sources of which are now available for both software (yes, even the wps, see hobbes!)

The source code of WPS is not available, and has never leaked.

muffetta

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #64 on: August 02, 2014, 02:18:22 pm »
I was talking about Windows 1.0 sources, Boris:
http://hobbes.nmsu.edu/download/pub/os2/dev/wps/wpsfwin-build-source.zip
Surely as start-up could be usefull, I doubt that really motivated programmers don't know what to do with this code, it was for MS Windows, yes, but it certainly derived from the original OS/2 code, so a clone would have been possible years ago, let's say that perhaps lacked uniformity of views on the matter, however I was talking about an alternative transition until OSFree would not have seen the light, but now they are just words in the wind, too late.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2014, 03:22:10 pm »
Hi Barbara.

Maybe I'm wrong, but WPS for Windows was only a mask to make Windows 3.1 looks like WPS. I think that there are not SOM Classes or WPS classes on it. Please correct me if you think I'm wrong. For example, on the little that I know, I understand that WPS classes source code has .idl files, on this case I don't see any of those on the source code of it.

In general, my main reason to support open source is that it reduced the risk. Which risk? to be left "High and Dry". Open source does not mean it is going to be developed and improved by air, but it reduced the risk of depending in one single individual or company. Will it be better to be close source abandonware or open source abandonware? At least with open source we have a chance that anybody else can improve it in a legal way and distribute it. Open source it is just the tool and methodology, we still need the collaborative spirit to work together in a single goal.

Now, on WPS, what I learn about it, it that it is so cool, because being close source it can be expanded. And since it is composed by single classes, it can be very structured to make a "one by one class replacement" for it, until we get a complete open source WPS clone. But sadly the idea does not have much traction between the developers I talked about it, since WPS is on top of other close source software (SOM and Presentation Manager), so we never end the discussion if it is better to start "top to down -> WPS - SOM - PM" or down to top "PM - SOM - WPS". But there is also no resources to start from any of this points.

But there are some half-baked projects that can help:
- PM Clone - FreePM , OSFree
- SOM clone - Somfree
- WPS clone - ??? - Some open source wps classes, XWorkplace, etc.

The short term project are always drivers, and yes, we need drivers. Some people always complain to me why focus time on fixing what is is working like this components?. But I think that the long term project will be to start on PM, SOM and WPS (on any order). This components are part of the soul of OS/2 GUI and having them open sourced will create a favorable wave for our goals inside the open source community.

Regards
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 03:24:07 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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muffetta

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2014, 04:31:24 pm »
I totally agree with you, Martin, but I repeat, just a start-up, if motivated programmers wanted to understand how WPS was structured, with or without SOM, perhaps to integrate also after, I do not think that they would had problems, especially Mensys/SSI, without resorting Netlabs programmers, that miracles they have done really a lot!!
I only say that with a different point of view we do not waste time and resources.

dbanet

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2014, 05:54:02 pm »
Well, let me share my opinion about Linux/2: please, no.

David Kiley

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2014, 08:02:20 pm »
Today OS/2 is valuable because it can run on real hardware. There is flow of money, there are developers because it is running on real hardware, there is demand on this alternative OS.

If settle OS/2 to Virtual machine or create WPS for Linux then it will become unnecessary. All developers will go away and .. only the developer of WPS front-end will stay alive.

Sure, today it's "valuable" in a limited way because there are banks and other enterprise companies trying to run os/2 on legacy systems, or upgrading to more modern systems so they can run old os/2 software. That's why serenity was in the business, so they can sell hundreds of enterprise licenses.

But if you stick to that path then it will only lead to the death of the os , because eventually all of these companies are going to abandon os/2 and there will be no market.

On the other hand i've watched more than one open source project grow, such as freedos, reactos and even linux since I originally booted slackware on a floppy in the 90's..
And one thing i've noticed is that while it always starts little, tons of people are curious about alternatives and eventually join the army.

So right now we only have a few people that care about os/2..
But if we abandon this path of holding onto the old, and instead focus on creating something new - then we will soon have a lot of friends to help us since people are inspired by creation :).

My 2 cents anyway..

David Kiley

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #69 on: August 02, 2014, 08:09:18 pm »
Well, let me share my opinion about Linux/2: please, no.
Well, certainly linux is just my suggestion for the base kernel, but if you have something against linux specifically, other alternative bases could be considered.
The point is currently a huge amount of effort is being spent patching software to run on old closed source os/2..

Whereas we could instead focusing on creating NEW os/2 software on the back of an already modern os, be in a BSD or Unix, or whatever base the community feels inspired... therefore no need to spend time making drivers that have already been created, and no need to recreate software like firefox that already runs on those OSs.

Instead you could put all your effort into a new os/2 desktop experience, which lets be honest is where most of us are spending our time on os/2 :).

David Kiley

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2014, 08:24:33 pm »
I suppose we could consider hitching our wagon to the freedos people instead of a unix based kernel I suppose.
It would be closer to the true os/2 under the hood but it would require a lot more coding as far as creating a whole new gui, and all of the apps.

We would have to start from ground zero in that direction but it's better then holding on to a dead path.

Maybe there would be some way of using the x-server gui source code and getting it to run on a dos based system so we could use at least some of the linux development work?

I was recommending a linux/unix core since it would require a lot less work.

On the other hand people would be very intrigued by it and I could see getting a lot of people joining our flag with that move :).


« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 08:29:49 pm by David Kiley »

Dave Yeo

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2014, 08:41:52 pm »
I'd think that reactos would be a better kernel to start out with. Being a clone of NT and NT having started life as OS/2 NT v3, running OS/2 v1.x binaries natively up until W2K and at one point MS running 32 bit Presentation Manager natively on NT in the lab, it is closest to OS/2.
At that I understand at the beginning of Reactos development they reached out to OS/2 developers to join in. Of course back then the OS/2 developer community resembled a herd of cats and many did not like the GPL so it was never followed up with.

dbanet

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2014, 08:44:06 pm »
I've written quite a lot of text, but then deleted it (here you may thank me you don't need to read me), becuase realized that arguing here makes completely no sense.

I support Martin's point of view.

muffetta

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2014, 08:45:38 pm »
Exactly what i was trying to say, David, especially at the point where we arrived, it was worth waiting 14 years? also paying for a software subscription? for what?  if I install the last port made by Qt4 and I'm missing something I do not have maybe type rpm install update reinstall etc.. etc?
Was necessary Mensys/SSI?, sure not!
What changes if under a WPS completely rewritten and identical to the original, if not improved, there was BSD/UNIX or something similar using instead an hybrid kernel only for our OS? Is not this always a solution linux-style?
The user experience would not been changed of course, and in addition we would not have had so many problems, certainly curiosity would attracted many users and programmers, and when the new OSFree would be ready, all this time and this software certainly would have been useful.

David Kiley

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Re: Is eComStation DEAD?
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2014, 09:43:17 pm »
becuase realized that arguing here makes completely no sense.

I support Martin's point of view.
Honestly your arguing is useful since it got us considering alternative kernels such as reactos which actually makes a lot of sense.
So if you have some thoughts feel free to share :)