Author Topic: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions  (Read 84294 times)

Lars

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #150 on: January 03, 2024, 12:15:37 pm »
Hello, by turning on Hyper-Threading on my T14s (1st gen) I had experienced with ArcaOS 5.1 (UEFI).
1) I see 8 processors now the CPU meter widget.
2) Sudden computer/desktop freeze, mouse keep working, clock stops and no Ctrl+Alt+Del works.  I can not tell exactly when it happens, sometimes is like 4 minutes before reboot and sometime 10 minutes. I had three freeze for what I had used the T14s today. Usually when I run Firefox for a while.
3) Sometimes boot fails and freezes on the ArcaOS 5.1 logo.

In my case I prefer to turn off Hyper-Threading for the moment.

Regards

It's not only hyperthreading that is causing the problem. I have the same problem as you do but on my AMD system I had enabled "only one core per unit" which basically amounts to turning "hyperthreading" off.
What I discovered recently is that especially the WPS is prone to lockups of all sorts.

You can easily test for yourself: open TOP and look at how many threads the second instance of PMSHELL is running. Then, open a folder with many files and hit F5 ("Refresh") rapidly multiple times. Then switch over to TOP and have a look at how many threads have piled up for the second instance of PMSHELL.EXE.

That means, that somehow hitting "Refresh" always schedules a new thread for doing the refresh asynchronously in the background. I initially suspected it had something to do with XWorkplace so I disabled a couple of folder functions like "Turbo Folder" and "automatic refresh of folders" but it did not make a bit of a difference.
The refresh mechanism is obviously flawed by design as it will allow another triggering of refresh while a refresh is currently ongoing plus it schedules a new thread while it could continue to use the one that is already in existence. All these threads then seemingly block each other and on my system it can take up to a couple of minutes until they finally unravel (or the WPS hanging for good). All this refresh activity will not become a problem unless you decide to copy/delete or move files while all that refresh is going on. If you attempt to do that, the WPS will hang for the aforementioned number of minutes.

Finally "SMP" on OS/2 is not really "SMP" (any more). It used to be "SMP" with OS/2 2.1 SMP but then it was decided to route all interrupt activity to only CPU0 so that device drivers written for single core sytems would still continue to work (which by the way is also not always true if, for example, you are using context hooks). That clearly is a bottleneck because for example, you cannot use Intels capabilities to route an interrupt to the core that has least recently been used (load balancing in HW). I would not call that "SMP". "SMP" means that all processor cores are alike and that all cores perform the same activities (why do you think Intel has foreseen to route an interrupt to any of the existing cores ?).

What this all leads to is that the WPS is actually performing better if you have less CPU cores and not more.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2024, 12:17:56 pm by Lars »

Pete

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #151 on: January 03, 2024, 04:05:21 pm »
Hi Lars

Either F5 does not "Refresh" or doing so does not cause any problems with the Ryzen5 5600G with SMT enabled - TOP does not show any extra pmshell entries at all, just the usual 2 (WPS and Warpcenter). Possibly 300+ objects in a directory is not enough to cause the problem ...


Regards

Pete

roberto

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #152 on: January 03, 2024, 06:14:06 pm »
-Dariusz
I think you misinterpreted my message, the values you indicate are ones that I was with on my test machine using them for a while but they're not the right ones. The right ones are the others. In fact, I've already changed all my computers at work, including the server.

-Roderick
Finally, I have to admit that in OS/2 you can't use HT on. Causes memory problems, especially when The system is stressed, although it gives the sensation on specific occasions of working better. Apart from the possible security issue.
Saludos

Lars

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #153 on: January 03, 2024, 09:20:29 pm »
Hi Lars

Either F5 does not "Refresh" or doing so does not cause any problems with the Ryzen5 5600G with SMT enabled - TOP does not show any extra pmshell entries at all, just the usual 2 (WPS and Warpcenter). Possibly 300+ objects in a directory is not enough to cause the problem ...


Regards

Pete

I am not talking about additional pmshell instances. I am talking about the number of threads of the second pmshell instance.  In TOP, hit T and then use the arrow keys to select the second pmshell instance (the one with the larger PID), then hit Enter to get the list of threads of that process. Each F5 keypress will add a new thread.

Dariusz Piatkowski

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #154 on: January 04, 2024, 12:29:25 am »
Hi roberto,

-Dariusz
I think you misinterpreted my message, the values you indicate are ones that I was with on my test machine using them for a while but they're not the right ones. The right ones are the others. In fact, I've already changed all my computers at work, including the server...

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what the FINAL values are?

Your thread posting I responded to is what I quoted in my response, but here it is as it appears right now:

Quote
and changing only these two values changed everything completely.
; IdleCount: Number of CheckIntervals needed to determine system idle, default=5
IdleCount = 0.3125

; CheckInterval: Delay time between checking cpu load and temperature (seconds), default=1
CheckInterval = 1.3125

If anyone wants to try it.

I am experimenting with other values, and with 0.3125 and 125 , I have 8 processors with less than 25% evenly distributed all, 6 taps open, a youtube video in the background, with Dooble 632. Interesting.
Sorry, modyfy 0.03125 and 125

So what actually are you finding to be the MORE stable set of values than the above listed:
IdleCount = 0.3125
CheckInterval = 1.3125
?

Because the recommendation I made to shut OFF PowerMan were based on your conclusion that different values are improving things for you.

Either way, did you shut it OFF and if yes, what were the results (if any)?

Roderick Klein

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #155 on: January 04, 2024, 12:32:01 am »
Hi roberto,

-Dariusz
I think you misinterpreted my message, the values you indicate are ones that I was with on my test machine using them for a while but they're not the right ones. The right ones are the others. In fact, I've already changed all my computers at work, including the server...

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what the FINAL values are?

Your thread posting I responded to is what I quoted in my response, but here it is as it appears right now:

Quote
and changing only these two values changed everything completely.
; IdleCount: Number of CheckIntervals needed to determine system idle, default=5
IdleCount = 0.3125

; CheckInterval: Delay time between checking cpu load and temperature (seconds), default=1
CheckInterval = 1.3125

If anyone wants to try it.

I am experimenting with other values, and with 0.3125 and 125 , I have 8 processors with less than 25% evenly distributed all, 6 taps open, a youtube video in the background, with Dooble 632. Interesting.
Sorry, modyfy 0.03125 and 125

So what actually are you finding to be the MORE stable set of values than the above listed:
IdleCount = 0.3125
CheckInterval = 1.3125
?

Because the recommendation I made to shut OFF PowerMan were based on your conclusion that different values are improving things for you.

Either way, did you shut it OFF and if yes, what were the results (if any)?

Here is BTW the bad news. The values that Robert entered in the CFG file do not matter. You can only enter integer numbers....

Roderick

Roderick Klein

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #156 on: January 04, 2024, 12:35:27 am »
-Dariusz
I think you misinterpreted my message, the values you indicate are ones that I was with on my test machine using them for a while but they're not the right ones. The right ones are the others. In fact, I've already changed all my computers at work, including the server.

-Roderick
Finally, I have to admit that in OS/2 you can't use HT on. Causes memory problems, especially when The system is stressed, although it gives the sensation on specific occasions of working better. Apart from the possible security issue.
Saludos

Also just serarch for hyperthreading on other platforms. Your millage maybe vary...

Roderick

Pete

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #157 on: January 04, 2024, 02:02:00 am »
Hi Lars

No change in the number of threads (32) displayed after pressing/releasing F5 continually for around 15 seconds, 40 key presses.


Regards

Pete

Steven Levine

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #158 on: January 04, 2024, 02:45:15 am »
I cannot replicate Lars' failure mode either.

If you want to use top to monitor threads, there is an easier way.

Use the Display menu to select Process Details so the thread count is always visible.  Use the Sort menu to sort by Name so that the process list does not change so much.  You might want to increase the refresh rate with Options ->
Refresh Rate.

Lars, when you say many, how many is many?  I tested with a folder containing 3000+ files.

Dariusz Piatkowski

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #159 on: January 04, 2024, 04:12:47 am »
Hi Roderik,

Here is BTW the bad news. The values that Robert entered in the CFG file do not matter. You can only enter integer numbers....

Not going to argue with you there as I do not know the logic PowerManager implements (I asked David A when I had opened the Ticket on the issue I was seeing, never got the answer to that question though).

Regardless, as I mentioned at the start of my original response, there is one way to tell and that is to turn on the LOG and see what's there:

Code: [Select]
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon ========== AcpiDaemon 3.23.16 Starting ==========
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon Detected APM version 3.23
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon LID set to Do Nothing, PowerButton to Do Nothing
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon Log to screen:Off
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon NOTIFY: ========== Notify thread is starting ==========
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon PWRBT: ========== Power Button thread is starting ==========
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon PWRBT: Calling AcpiTkWaitPressButton
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon NOTIFY: Calling AcpiTkWaitNotify()
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon PIPE: ========== Pipe thread is starting =================
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon PM: ========== Power Manager thread is starting ==========
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon PM: Enable=0 Verbose=1 CheckInterval=1000 PreferredMode=0 PMset=0
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon PM: MaxTemp=85 OverTempPower=25 MaxAC=100 MaxBattery=50 MinPwr=15, DecAt=15 IncAt=25 AllAt=75 IdleCount=2
01 Jan 16:21:10 AcpiDaemon APM: ========== APM thread is starting ==========
01 Jan 16:22:10 AcpiDaemon PM: Number of controllable CPUs: 1 of 6 total CPUs

...problem solved, the above tells me exactly what PowerMan is doing with my settings.

roberto

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #160 on: January 04, 2024, 04:15:55 pm »
A small explanation, the most reliable, most compatible values, with old and new applications. For me it's 0.03125 and 125

For a year or so I've been using this setup on a test rig, 0.3125 and 1.3125 This setup is very stable, not problematic, not at all. But I've seen things that don't give me confidence. For example, I have the fc in the startup folder and it doesn't always start. It would start, but it would make me press a button OK.

An option that perhaps in the future could be interesting to consider, would be 0.03125 and 125000, but for today it is not reliable, and with old applications it fails.

About the PowerMan, =0, Under no circumstances does it show me the processors, The last line is this:
AcpiDaemon APM: ========== APM thread is starting ==========

Saludos

The real world is one thing, and the other is something else

Pete

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #161 on: January 04, 2024, 08:18:03 pm »
Hi All

Finally found the option to turn off HT - sorry, SMT in the MSI B450PRO mainboard BIOS.

I have to say there is not a lot of difference between SMT enabled and disabled... Seamonkey and OpenOffice apps seem to start a little quicker with SMT enabled... Dooble is still unstable, liable to hang the system... WPS seems to trundle along at about the same speed.

Just for a comparison: I dug an old system out of the cupboard, connected it up and powered it on. Slower bootup, WPS runs at close to the same speed as the Ryzen5, apps are a little slower to load. Old system is based on a Jetway 663AS Ultra with AMD XP2000+ cpu, 1Gb RAM and IDE disks running eCS2.1

I think Lars may be onto something when he states: "What this all leads to is that the WPS is actually performing better if you have less CPU cores and not more."


Regards

Pete






 

Lars

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #162 on: January 04, 2024, 09:07:04 pm »
I cannot replicate Lars' failure mode either.

If you want to use top to monitor threads, there is an easier way.

Use the Display menu to select Process Details so the thread count is always visible.  Use the Sort menu to sort by Name so that the process list does not change so much.  You might want to increase the refresh rate with Options ->
Refresh Rate.

Lars, when you say many, how many is many?  I tested with a folder containing 3000+ files.

It's a folder with 362 Icon files. Hammering F5 with that folder opened, I see the second instance of PMSHELL running with 61 threads. And it clearly depends on how many times I press F5.

Rich Walsh

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #163 on: January 05, 2024, 12:53:09 am »
It's a folder with 362 Icon files.

Thanks for sharing that little detail. I was able to duplicate this easily once I knew what you were talking about (though I suspect they were actually PNG icons, not "icons"). Blame the MM classes...

David Graser

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Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« Reply #164 on: January 05, 2024, 04:15:55 am »
when I was doing business in Spain I had professional translators translate all our paperwork to Spanish and considered it a cost of doing business there.

And if the cost of those professional translators were a multiple of the profits you could ever hope to make in Spain, would you have done business there? If your answer is no, then you've given AN all the justification it needs to _never_ release AOS in Dutch. It just isn't economic unless the translations are done pro bono.

The apple iphones have translation software.  One can translate from English to Dutch is one so choses.

I am no programmer, but if it s matter of replacing English text with Dutch, I might possibly could do that using my iphone for the translations.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2024, 04:42:18 am by David Graser »