Author Topic: Arca Noae should be directly involved in web browser development efforts  (Read 16742 times)

David Kiley

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I think Arca Noae should be prioritizing the browser over hardware support at this point and should be directly involved in the efforts to develop a functional browser either with development work or funding..
Users of OS/2 can live with slightly or even much older hardware for years but an OS is dead in the water without a functional browser.

I could see a purpose of paying to  upgrade ArcaOS if they did this but otherwise I kind of don't.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2024, 10:14:25 am by David Kiley »

Roderick Klein

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Re: Arca Noae should be directly involved in web browser development efforts
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2024, 03:49:53 pm »
I think Arca Noae should be prioritizing the browser over hardware support at this point and should be directly involved in the efforts to develop a functional browser either with development work or funding..
Users of OS/2 can live with slightly or even much older hardware for years but an OS is dead in the water without a functional browser.

I could see a purpose of paying to  upgrade ArcaOS if they did this but otherwise I kind of don't.

Like in the Mensys days the community does a portion of the OS development. If AN wants todo browser development is part two. Send an email to AN about this. I know they do not read the forums allways.

BWW and OS/2 VOICE (me) started working on the QT web browser. This project has proven to be (despite making an estimate) a very big pile of work. But that is what you get with one FTE.

The primary reason that the browser was never finished is because Dmitry is from Russia. To put it simple in a recent newspaper interview with Norwegian newspaper he compares Russia to facits state. Dmitry was in 2014 involved with starting the independed  the independed newswebsite https://media.zona. Which has been declared a foreign agent (goverment sanctions). At this moment Dmitry has left Russia also because he does not support Putin his genocidal war in Ukraine and because of his activity with independed press. Dmitry has for 2 years not found a new country to stay. Effectively he moved to Turkey and is now in one of the Baltic states. He will most likely never be able to go back to Russia as long as the country does not turn into a democratic direction.

I just explain this above for people who did not see my Warpstock presentation I did in Orlando in November last year.
I am currently working on an updated newsletter about the browser development. VOICE has not forgotten about the browser, The panful issue is that without this stiupid war we would have had a browser.

Roderick Klein
OS/2 VOICE

Sergey Posokhov

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Re: Arca Noae should be directly involved in web browser development efforts
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2024, 11:48:46 am »
Quote
as long as the country does not turn into a democratic direction
Nooooo, please, never!!!  ;)

Lars

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Re: Arca Noae should be directly involved in web browser development efforts
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2024, 01:32:36 pm »
I have never understood why Russia never managed to make more out of their abilities and possibilities.

They have capable sports guys, they have capable and talented artists (some of the world best pianists among them), they have smart people (I have a big maths book written by a Russian mathematician in the 1950's or so), they have resources/raw materials and they have money.
But the result is just plain meagre.

Davorin

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Re: Arca Noae should be directly involved in web browser development efforts
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2024, 01:43:37 pm »
The primary reason that the browser was never finished is because Dmitry is from Russia. To put it simple in a recent newspaper interview with Norwegian newspaper he compares Russia to facits state.
Bandera is a democrat and Putin is a fascist??!
" O tempora, o mores"
:'(

We definitely need a functional browser and I am ready to financially help the new team again, which will not run away before the job is done.

Regards
Davorin

Andrew Stephenson

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Re: Arca Noae should be directly involved in web browser development efforts
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2024, 02:48:18 pm »
(Photo of sign board in snow:)  Er, sub-titles?  (Please.)   ???

ivan

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Re: Arca Noae should be directly involved in web browser development efforts
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2024, 05:05:30 pm »
My answer to the problem, since I will not run a browser without NoScript addon, is to have a second monitor connected to one of my Linux computers and run firefox esr on that.

mauro

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Re: Arca Noae should be directly involved in web browser development efforts
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2024, 05:43:02 pm »

I just explain this above for people who did not see my Warpstock presentation I did in Orlando in November last year.
I am currently working on an updated newsletter about the browser development. VOICE has not forgotten about the browser, The panful issue is that without this stiupid war we would have had a browser.

Roderick Klein
OS/2 VOICE

Hi Roderick full respect for those ones who experience a hard period because of....we all know what/who.

But this post has "Arca Noae" as subject. It is a profit Company who sells a pc operating system at 139€ as personal edition including support for the first 6 months, then pay 70€ if you need support the following year, not talking about the major costs for the commercial license.  This in the situation that "the community does a portion of the OS development"???  And this portion of development includes the realization of an actual browser. In both purchase cases (139 € personal, 249 € commecial) you will get an operating system "running on modern multi-core and multi-processor systems, as well as traditional BIOS or UEFI-based hardware" that can offer you nothing more than Firefox38/Seamonkey2.41 browsers, released in 2015, two years old by the year AN took in charge the OS2 development for selling purpose.
They did a lot, true, but telling that a modern/actual/reliable browser realization (or at least ported from an existing one) is not part of their tasks, is too much.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2024, 08:43:04 pm by mauro »

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: Arca Noae should be directly involved in web browser development efforts
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2024, 06:41:41 pm »
Arca Noae has the right to pick or choose the things, they want to develoep or make their target. That's true and OK.

Regarding the browser the "American/English" users may discover the feelings for waiting for years for something as Users from other languages, whom are waiting for their local release.

I.e.:

- the german Version was announced some years ago (Yes, allways with the hint that it "may" come and depends on the Translators)

Result today: still not available, should come with 5.1.1.



- the WLAN Drivers, have been "focused" or "considered" for at least 5 years now

Result today: no WLAN drivers available, no plan for a further developement in this direction (if I understand Warpstock 2023 correct).


Yes, you can say we have UEFI, GPT support and USB 3.0, that is what industrial customers need. And one can install XWP 1.0.16 with language support.

But for me, the result is the same: if I want to use OS/2 it makes definitly more sense to use a Virtualisation, where I can use a native language version, WLAN of the host, no RAM problem with a maximum of 4 GB usable, and support for the screen resolutions, the Laptop offers.

In this situation there is no need for a new browser as one can simply use the browser of the host OS,

And in addition, as a logical consequence, there is no need for another or newer Version of OS/2 than at least 4.52. There is no need for ArcaOS.

And so: it makes (sadly) no sense for me to spend more money for a modern browser nor to pursuade someone to do so.



« Last Edit: January 07, 2024, 06:47:50 pm by Sigurd Fastenrath »

David Kiley

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Sorry for my late reply. I've been out of the loop for a while. Anyways I just wanted to say that I totally didn't mean any disrespect regarding the community efforts and understand the challenges there.

I just think, for me to be motivated to pay for ArcaOS I feel they should be funding or developing the browser too. I'm pretty much in the same place as Sigurd.. that right now with emulation being the best path there (for me) there really isn't any point to donating more money for a new version of ArcaOS.
They make a lot of their money from enterprise customers who probably don't care that much about a browser, so maybe it's not their priority. I know when serenity systems was involved with eComstation they pretty much only cared about enterprise customers so it might be similar.

Perhaps I should consider donating to the browser directly though. It would make more sense for me to pay the community instead of paying to upgrade ArcaOS.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2025, 11:01:36 am by David Kiley »

Paul Smedley

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I donn't mean to be negative about the prospects of getting a working browser, but in the 2+ years since I first got Qt6webengine compiling, to the best of my knowledge, despite all code being published in githib, nobody except me has compiled the webengine.

A few others have built qt6base and some of the other dependencies, and have contributed patches, for which I'm grateful.

I've had some success getting it compiling, and through tenacity, have fixed some stuff, but the reality is that I'n *NOT* a programmer. I know literally none of the OS/2 API, and only have very basic knowledge of C/C++. I can hack existing code and maybe get it working, but when it comes to complex code and interpreting crashes, I'm truly not that good.

What I'm trying to say is that right now, I hold out little prospect of us getting a newer browser than the one based on Qt 6.2.6.

The other reality is, that even if we can somehow get a newer version, the 4GB memory limit is a REAL issue.....

Martin Iturbide

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Hello

I also agreed that Arca Noae should bring a developer to the scene to finally got a modern web browser on ArcaOS. Arca Noae is the only one with resources that can help with this, the rest of the community does not generate any incomes to be directly invest on the OS.

I applaud Paul's effort, but as he says, we need someone with understanding of the OS/2 API that can connect the webengine. Even if it is younger developer that does not knows OS/2, at least hire him permanently to learn the OS/2 API in a few months.

Arca Noae strategy at first was to support OS/2 on modern hardware, but it has to change and evolve to include key software development to help people use the OS for their everyday activities.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
OS2World NewsMaster
... just share the dream.

Remy

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Hi !

I agree, Paul did a very big and great job on QT6, webengine and the browser is very near to be usable all day.
I'm retired with some health problems and have missing knowledge in the language used for QT6 and OS2 API   

I'm sure that the free low shared memory issue, some silent crashes can be quickly resolved by a developer from ArcaNoae.
May be some issue could be connected with usb or audio drivers (interrupt handing?) - it mostly occurs when moving my usb mouse pointer or viewing youtube videos.   
   

Dariusz Piatkowski

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Martin, everyone...

...I also agreed that Arca Noae should bring a developer to the scene to finally got a modern web browser on ArcaOS. Arca Noae is the only one with resources that can help with this, the rest of the community does not generate any incomes to be directly invest on the OS...Even if it is younger developer that does not knows OS/2, at least hire him permanently to learn the OS/2 API in a few months...

Umm...folks, we are a DEAD platform...I hate to say it, but that's just the pragmatic part of me screaming in my head!!! LOL

So Martin, as much as I would love to contribute ($$$) again to this effort, the reality is that you can't simply go fishing for a resource, especially someone younger that needs to do a WHOLE STACK worth of learning only to develop a skill that's basically completely unusable anywhere else.

Yup, that's that.

The problem I have always seen as the proverbial "brick wall" of our platform is the fact that we seemingly still do not hava a ready 'out of the box' DEV enviornment. This is a significant mountain to climb for anyone that even attempts to do this.

Look, I've been professionally employed writing code (albeit Oracle PL/SQL DBMS stuff, and some other stuff) but the point is, that's sort of like learning how to ride a bike, and once you figure that out it's just a matter of getting used to different gear sets, handling, etc.

I will tell you this: having tried to upgrade our DISKIO utility (and that thing is a tiny, itsy-bitsy piece of functionality) it's been nearly impossible to find all the pertinent references that allow us to account for how things have changed between the '90s where OS/2 was still a viable platform to how things are today.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a coding Pro, but I'm no newbie when it comes to DEV environments, IDEs, libraries, etc...so why does it always feel like getting anything off the ground on our platform is like climbing Mt. Everest???  :o ::)

Dave Yeo

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As pointed out, we're running an ancient system in PC terms, 20 years since IBM dropped all support, 30 years since most active development was stopped, 35 years since OS/2 2.x was basically designed.
We have a mickey mouse tool chain, Paul has done an excellent job of keeping our GCC fork up to date, but it is a fork and parts of it are ancient. Aout object format as an example with no one having the skills and interest in updating to a more modern object format such as ELF or even what Windows currently uses.
We're also missing other tools to lint our code to find obvious bugs like perhaps a missing free(), and those tools probably would require more then 4GB's of ram, especially to check the Qtwebengine.
Browsers are supported by large organizations, Google, Mozilla and Apple are about it. Even MS switched to being based on Google's work. Development happens fast and just keeping up would take a team of people. We saw with Mozilla, one person trying to keep up leads to burn out.
Our platform is missing modern features. Getting IPC working has proved to be hard, we have to run the browsers in --single-process mode, which is unsupported and may be the source of memory leaks. Seems the problem is our TCPIP stack just craps out on local socket operations that are too big.
For a developer to do much, they would have to be a guru, an OS/2 guru, of which there is a severe shortage of. And they would have to be full time, perhaps with a team. Expensive.
I hate to say it, but a modern browser is not likely. A semi-modern one might be possible. Pale Moon could perhaps be done by a decent OS/2 programmer as an example. All the code is in the Mozilla tree and it is a fork, though lots of changes there. Even then a lot of web sites would  not work.
We're an ancient platform. I'm lucky as most of what I do, our SeaMonkey is good enough with work arounds like my Credit Union where clicking an icon doesn't work but using the menu does.