Retro Machine - DOS VDM - OpenOffice

[Andrew Stephenson]

This topic fits well with a feeling I have had for some time. However, wording it in a way that makes perfect sense may be tricky.

It comes down to what I want/need to do with that computer in front of me. As I see it, Operators fall into two major classes (ignoring oddball cases, like Manufacturer):

* Developer -- someone who wants to tinker with innards -- make the m/c "better" (faster, bigger data capacity, more physically robust &c);

* User -- someone who wants to manipulate objects such as Texts, Spreadsheets, Emails, Artwork, Designs (for various types of things -- clerical, abstract or tangible), Music, Household Appliances &c.

These days, I tend to fall into the User class but can appreciate the effort it takes to be a useful Designer. Being a creature of habit, I still try to run WordStar and other 16-bit utils. So OS/2's emulators, currently for DOS and Win-3.1 -- not to mention OS/2 itself -- are essential (but still a bit flaky in my AOS-5.1; can we expect an update or two soon(ish)?).

This leads me to wonder whether the best future for OS/2 would be as a place to run retro-software. To the emulators already mentioned, add new ones for (eg) Linux, old games, other OSes that used to host popular software. Think about it: 32 bits already provide massive resources. Since OS/2 began, there have been amazing general refinements in industry standards: I/O commonly relies on USB but could still work with archaic stuff like Centronics; storage devices can run up to (is it?) 2TB per partition; processing speeds are insanely fast;...

And OS/2 would not be stuck-in-the-mud. We could hope for emulators allowing it to be hosted under 64-bits (and whatever higher bit-count the Secret Masters Of Computing, the SMOCs) may decree. And those Developers could carry on, improving the breed.
 
Need I go on?

[Dave Yeo]

The MDOS(WinOS2) subsystem in OS/2 is not an emulator, but actual PC-DOS 5 running in ring2. Not quite bare metal but closer then most user programs that run in ring3. You can actually load and run most DOS device drivers with some such as disk, mouse and keyboard getting trapped by the kernel and replaced by the OS/2 driver. So DOS programs can run on HPFS and JFS but you can't easily do something like supporting long file names.
The hardware itself has changed enough that DOS applications just don't run as well as they used to do.

[Andrew Stephenson]

The MDOS(WinOS2) subsystem in OS/2 is not an emulator, but actual PC-DOS 5 running in ring2. Not quite bare metal but closer then most user programs that run in ring3. You can actually load and run most DOS device drivers with some such as disk, mouse and keyboard getting trapped by the kernel and replaced by the OS/2 driver. So DOS programs can run on HPFS and JFS but you can't easily do something like supporting long file names.
The hardware itself has changed enough that DOS applications just don't run as well as they used to do.

Crikey... Ta for the pointer, which could explain a lot. In WordStar, most functions work as usual, so with care I can do productive writing, but a function that opens extra files (eg: second editing window, spell-checker (but not thesaurus, oddly) & text import/export), the whole shebang freezes, requiring an OS/2 reboot. Trying to use the Oxford Compendium (dictionary + thesaurus + quotes) in Win-3.1 makes it witter about not being able to find one file (I forget which and my OS/2 m/c is turned off right now) and refuses to run. And Borland Quattro Pro crashes if I check the icon in Properties. Otherwise life is dandy. *sigh* Okay, it is time to Be Philosophical -- and Very Careful while dancing in the minefield.

BTW, I did consider setting up a disk partition as DR-DOS-7 and running WS there but am unsure about accessing I/O such as USB, or talking to disk files within my m/c's OS/2 Universe. But that can wait.

(And, yes, to those helpful souls who want to mention WordTsar, I am keeping an eye on that, thanks.)

[JTA]

If one is considering multiboot solutions, then this could be a case where an AToF machine really shines for WordStar and other old non-OS/2 apps ...

The (old) special purpose DOS or WIN apps (WordStar, others) get their own VM running a more native OS that matches the app version, or a modern emulator that extends more features to the old DOS/WIN app. Plus, it's all windowed, alongside OS/2 running in its own VM(s), under one HostOS.

A VM running a more recent DOS 6.22 or DR-DOS 7 should be perfect, or even a Win VM running DosBox-X, to get access to more recent file/networking/printing features.

OS/2 offers a better dos than dos, and a better win than windows, but that was tied to specific OS timeframes of some decades ago. A VM solution should be able to do much better these days. AToF should help ...

[Andrew Stephenson]

If one is considering multiboot solutions, then this could be a case where an AToF machine really shines for WordStar and other old non-OS/2 apps ... [...]

Thanks for the thoughts, though AToF is something I have yet to investigate.

The spate of bugs afflicting my DOS and Win-3.1, summarised earlier, started with AOS. The eCS-2 sessions worked beautifully, so maybe our SMOCs (Secret Masters Of Computing) tweaked something that needs to be un-tweaked. Or I could dig out a copy of eCS-2 (hmm, do I still have it?) and install that in its own disk partition, in the hope it can talk to modern-format files in the AOS-5.1 (&c) partitions -- or it can be HPFS-formatted and the AOS partitions could talk to it.

Like was remarked recently elsewhere (paraphrased), life gets complicated. My big hope is that our SMOCs can succeed with un-tweaking. Meanwhile, you'd laugh at the antics I've got up to: (a) write my MS (manuscript) on WS under AOS-5.1, (b) convert the MS to pure-ASCII in WS by replacing the limited set of formatting sequences with ASCII codes (eg "soft tab" --> "@T@"), (c) port this file to my Dell notebook on a USB stick and use Win-10's LibreOffice 7.5 to do spelling fixes, (d) port the new file back to WS and restore the formatting sequences, (e) use WS's "convert to RTF" feature to make a RTF version of the MS, (f) port the RTF back to LibreOffice and insert data on the typeface (because for some reason WS writes "default") and (g) send the RTF to a lucky editor (because the publishing industry still thinks RTF/DOCX is/are the cat's pyjamas of formats)... *mutters*

[Doug Clark]

Andrew,

In my experience eCS, and earlier versions of AOS, run windows and dos applications better than 5.1 on some machines.  Depends on the machine.  I am running AOS v 5.1 on three different machines (Ryzen R5/MSI motherboard, Thinkpad T530 and HP EliteDesk 800 G4).  The Thinkpad runs Win-OS/2 and Dos programs perfectly on AOS v 5.1 but would not run Win-OS/2 with earlier version of AOS.  The EliteDesk runs Win-OS/2 but in full screen mode only.  The Ryzen appears to run all Win-OS/2 programs in full screen, but some programs will freeze the machine in seamless mode - QuattroPro for Windows being the worst.  I also have problems with ReportSmith - and sometimes FrameMaker v 5.1 will freeze after awhile in seamless.  But again they all appear to run fine in full screen - many programs run fine in seamless mode.

I think it is both hardware and software.  I had a couple of earlier AMD  (FX4350 socket AM3+/ASUS motherboard) machines, one with eCS installed and one with AOS 5.02 installed.  Windows and Dos programs ran fine in on both machines.  When I upgraded the AMD AOS from v 5.02 to v 5.06 I started to have problems with Win-OS/2.

To test the theory I did a fresh install of AOS v 5.02 on a new hard drive on the AMD machine and transferred it to the Ryzen machine. (AOS v 5.02 will not install in the Ryzen machine). To get it to work I had to switch to a serial mouse and PS/2 keyboard because USB would not work and the network card stopped working - but the problematic windows programs (like Quattro Pro for Windows) ran fine.  So I think it is both the version of AOS and the hardware it is running on.

To run Win-OS/2 programs on the Thinkpad (before AOS v 5.1 came out) I ran my windows programs in a WIndows XP virtual machine running in VBOX on AOS.  That worked pretty good for me - although there is a trick to getting vbox to start without a hitch.

[Andrew Stephenson]

Doug:... Many thanks for the discussion on the variable results you have had, running versions of OS/2 on sundry machines. Reading your account, I found myself thinking of that AOS booting-up oddity, whereby it pays to press Alt+F2 to ensure a small delay at a critical moment. Is it possible (Wild Guess Dept.) that we have here (sorry, Half-A**ed Attempt At Being Technical follows) timing clashes in a multi-processor m/c? If sequences of code got handled at different rates and the software was not written to cope, one might get problems?

BTW, I have been looking at Wikipedia's article on LibreOffice and wondered if anyone has investigated an OS/2 port. It's a HUGE article but the general notes point to LO being a lot more mature than its ancestor, OpenOffice (whose OS/2 port I bought and still have not installed -- mainly because of distractions).

[Dave Yeo]

You might want to test with only one cpu enabled. Add /MAXCPU=1 to the PSD=ACPI.PSD line in config.sys.
As for LibreOffice, one of the first things they did when they forked from OpenOffice was remove the OS/2 stuff and since then so much development has happened that re-adding it would be very hard. Even building OpenOffice is next to impossible without the right environment which I understand only one person has.

[Pete]

Hi andrew

I found this little trick to help with boot timing problems in the past:-

Open Editor (e.exe) and Save As [BootDrive]H:\OS2\BOOT\ALTF2ON.$$$- Yes, an empty "dummy" file.

This reports every driver that it has loaded during boot which seems to help with timing issues. Also useful if boot gets stuck at some point as you can see how far booting got before failing.


Regards

Pete

[Roderick Klein]

If one is considering multiboot solutions, then this could be a case where an AToF machine really shines for WordStar and other old non-OS/2 apps ... [...]

Thanks for the thoughts, though AToF is something I have yet to investigate.

The spate of bugs afflicting my DOS and Win-3.1, summarised earlier, started with AOS. The eCS-2 sessions worked beautifully, so maybe our SMOCs (Secret Masters Of Computing) tweaked something that needs to be un-tweaked. Or I could dig out a copy of eCS-2 (hmm, do I still have it?) and install that in its own disk partition, in the hope it can talk to modern-format files in the AOS-5.1 (&c) partitions -- or it can be HPFS-formatted and the AOS partitions could talk to it.

Sorry the conclusion that 3.1 and DOS is more stable under eCS we need waaay more data. Just be extremely careful with such conclusions!

First of all most all of the WIN/OS2 code in drivers in the config.sys and in the kernel is the same as in ArcaOS as in eCS.
This means the files in \MDOS\WINOS2. But also the VDD drivers. All of that code from MCP 2 fixpak 5 both OS'es are based on.

But it gets more complicated then that. When it comes to the base OS a LOT of code has been modified since eCS. This includes ACPI, Panorama, file system drivers such as JFS.
This can change timing in a way where something might have worked on an eCS system by accident.  Config.sys load orders can sometimes change things.
While this description is not 100% accurate I am just trying to point out there are waaay more moving parts to an OS then just some WIN/OS2 settings.

If you have an issue with a program you can reproduce on an ArcaOS 5.1.x system open a ticket at Arca Noae and see if they can look into this.
Always attach a testlog generic.

Roderick Klein

[ivan]

I have a suggestion that might work for you.

First let me describe my setup.  I have 5 computers around my desk all connected to my keyboard, monitor and track ball via a multiport hdmi switch.  This allows me to use my OS/2 Warp, Arcaos, linux mint, win 7 and have one available with provision to plug in one of several hard disks as needed for backup.  The win 7 machine I salvaged when a neighbour threw it out.

My suggestion is for you to decide what are the main programs you want to use and setup a computer to do that then look for a salvage computer to run the rest and also run as a NAS,   

[Roderick Klein]

Andrew,

In my experience eCS, and earlier versions of AOS, run windows and dos applications better than 5.1 on some machines.  Depends on the machine.  I am running AOS v 5.1 on three different machines (Ryzen R5/MSI motherboard, Thinkpad T530 and HP EliteDesk 800 G4).  The Thinkpad runs Win-OS/2 and Dos programs perfectly on AOS v 5.1 but would not run Win-OS/2 with earlier version of AOS.  The EliteDesk runs Win-OS/2 but in full screen mode only.  The Ryzen appears to run all Win-OS/2 programs in full screen, but some programs will freeze the machine in seamless mode - QuattroPro for Windows being the worst.  I also have problems with ReportSmith - and sometimes FrameMaker v 5.1 will freeze after awhile in seamless.  But again they all appear to run fine in full screen - many programs run fine in seamless mode.

I think it is both hardware and software.  I had a couple of earlier AMD  (FX4350 socket AM3+/ASUS motherboard) machines, one with eCS installed and one with AOS 5.02 installed.  Windows and Dos programs ran fine in on both machines.  When I upgraded the AMD AOS from v 5.02 to v 5.06 I started to have problems with Win-OS/2.

To test the theory I did a fresh install of AOS v 5.02 on a new hard drive on the AMD machine and transferred it to the Ryzen machine. (AOS v 5.02 will not install in the Ryzen machine). To get it to work I had to switch to a serial mouse and PS/2 keyboard because USB would not work and the network card stopped working - but the problematic windows programs (like Quattro Pro for Windows) ran fine.  So I think it is both the version of AOS and the hardware it is running on.

To run Win-OS/2 programs on the Thinkpad (before AOS v 5.1 came out) I ran my windows programs in a WIndows XP virtual machine running in VBOX on AOS.  That worked pretty good for me - although there is a trick to getting vbox to start without a hitch.

"When I upgraded the AMD AOS from v 5.02 to v 5.06 I started to have problems with Win-OS/2." So did you open a ticket at Arca Noae for this ?

Having worked on all versions of eCS at Mensys the changes in regard to ArcaOS and eCS 1.2R and 2.x. is well close 0. To be specific this means the core code is the WIN/OS2 code, the VDD drivers and the kernel code for VDM support is mostly the same.  What can change the stuff is timing in code, if a bug exists is unknown. Until there is bug that Arca Noae so they can look at the issue.

Also for everybody reading this! With ArcaoS 5.1.0, if you run your system in UEFI mode a new video handler is used called VEFI.SYS that replaces VSVGA.SYS!
For WIN/OS2 this driver I understand does not do that much. But it can never be ruled out there are bugs in that driver.
However what I understand from the testing and what I picked up at Warpstock most of the code in VEFI.SYS is for the DOS sessions.

But as with any bug if it can be reproduced generate a testlog generic and open a ticket at Arca Noae on https://mantis.arcanoae.com.
I know from my Mensys days that debugging VDM stuff can be pretty complex. About 25% of the OS2 kernel its code is for the VDM support (DOS and Windows 3.1.).

Most of this DOS/VDM code has not been altered for decades. But again open a bug if you have time.
That might help to debug the stuff.

Roderick Klein

[Doug Clark]

Roderick,

I am guessing the issue is somewhere in APCI, and/or maybe usb in because I see the problem with both SNAP and Panorama.  I do have a ticket opened for this.  I can only imagine how difficult this will be to track down because I am guessing AOS will have to have copy of the actual machine having the problem to track it down.

I will say how amazed I am that ArcaNoae got AOS to run on UEFI machines, and that I can run 32 year old 16 bit software that is important to me on modern hardware - even if some of those programs have to be run in full screen.

Ivan - excellent suggestion - I also have multiple machines for compatibilty reasons - and that was the main reason for switching to thin-client type machines: much smaller size and much less power consumption.

[Andrew Stephenson]

Thank you, everyone who made suggestions. And other thanks to those who are patiently sitting through this chatter...

You might want to test with only one cpu enabled. Add /MAXCPU=1 to the PSD=ACPI.PSD line in config.sys.
As for LibreOffice, one of the first things they did when they forked from OpenOffice was remove the OS/2 stuff and since then so much development has happened that re-adding it would be very hard. Even building OpenOffice is next to impossible without the right environment which I understand only one person has.

* MAXCPU:- Sounds a solid idea; cannot do it at once but soon as possible.
* LibreOffice:- Pity. Well, we'll see whether my WS setup can be rescued. As a side-thought: does OS/2 have a text-editor subset of OpenOffice? I mean a program that is aware of the other \OO functions like  spreadsheet, so it can skip references to them, but does only text editing? Being able to work with the ODF file format sounds attractive, for portability if nothing else.

[...]
Open Editor (e.exe) and Save As [BootDrive]H:\OS2\BOOT\ALTF2ON.$$$- Yes, an empty "dummy" file.

This reports every driver that it has loaded during boot which seems to help with timing issues. Also useful if boot gets stuck at some point as you can see how far booting got before failing.

* Dummy file:- I'll give it a go, though I'm managing okay(ish) by being nimble with my Alt+F2 pressing.
* Roderick & ivan:- Fair points. Given my lowly User status, I'd best see what happens with suggestions covered above and hope some bright SMOC discovers how to put things right. Tickets: as appropriate.

Will feed back what I learn. Thanks again.

[Andrew Stephenson]

You might want to test with only one cpu enabled. Add /MAXCPU=1 to the PSD=ACPI.PSD line in config.sys.

* MAXCPU:- Sounds a solid idea; cannot do it at once but soon as possible.

I got to this sooner than expected. Sadly, there was no sign of it doing much, though (if I recall right) key combo Ctl+Alt+Del allowed me to use the Reboot option after a DOS session crash, where (if I recall right) I used to have to use the Reset button on the Lenovo m/c. (But I may not be recalling right.)

Nice idea, though. Thanks again.