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OS/2 Licensing

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jmase:
The problem as far as I know is not Microsoft but all the other companies IBM used as contractors.
Many of them don't even exist any more so finding out who owns rights might be a nightmare.

When the OS/2 kernel source was leaked (20 years ago?) the people I talked to told me they were able to build and use everything that was there. They also told me that according to text in the code there was a lot of subcontractors that kept their copyright. It was not like a Linux kernel where everything has the same license.

If IBM still have some big customers with OS/2 installations they support then they definitely have the code and the tools to build it. Not that many people know how to build it though.

Yes, the divide between kernel and device drivers makes it easier to support more modern hardware. Less stuff in the kernel makes it easier to expand it from the outside.

But in the end, without open source it will fail, it's quite amazing that modern CPU's still supports 30+ years old code. The only way to save anything imho is to use the Linux kernel and build a "personality" on top. But there are no resources nor business case any more.


 

Martin Iturbide:

--- Quote from: jmase on January 21, 2025, 09:48:19 pm ---The only way to save anything imho is to use the Linux kernel and build a "personality" on top. But there are no resources nor business case any more.

--- End quote ---

This is why today I put my faith in AI to help a developer to open source clone OS/2.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Dave Yeo:

--- Quote from: jmase on January 21, 2025, 09:48:19 pm ---The problem as far as I know is not Microsoft but all the other companies IBM used as contractors.
Many of them don't even exist any more so finding out who owns rights might be a nightmare.

--- End quote ---

Seems a bit surprising that the kernel used contractors, device drivers yes.


--- Quote ---When the OS/2 kernel source was leaked (20 years ago?) the people I talked to told me they were able to build and use everything that was there. They also told me that according to text in the code there was a lot of subcontractors that kept their copyright. It was not like a Linux kernel where everything has the same license.

--- End quote ---

Interesting.
I remember hearing rumours that the PowerPC version of OS/2 didn't have as many licensing problems and IBM even considered open sourcing it. It would have needed device drivers, network stack etc as well as an LX loader to run regular OS/2 programs. If  it had been released with a good license at the right time, who knows where it may have gone.


--- Quote ---If IBM still have some big customers with OS/2 installations they support then they definitely have the code and the tools to build it. Not that many people know how to build it though.

--- End quote ---

I remember Scott saying what a bitch it was to build, and he was the kernel maintainer.
I've also heard rumors that, yes some big customers (banks?) did have the source.


--- Quote ---Yes, the divide between kernel and device drivers makes it easier to support more modern hardware. Less stuff in the kernel makes it easier to expand it from the outside.

But in the end, without open source it will fail, it's quite amazing that modern CPU's still supports 30+ years old code. The only way to save anything imho is to use the Linux kernel and build a "personality" on top. But there are no resources nor business case any more.

--- End quote ---

Well the last kernel updates were more like 20 years age. They included supporting SSE etc and fixed some timing issues to boot on what then was modern hardware, they seem to have future proofed it enough that the later kernels can still boot on fairly modern hardware. My Warp 4 install still boots on my 7th generation I5, WPS fails to load though.
The ReactOS kernel would maybe be a better choice to support OS/2. NT did start as OS/2 v3 NT, supported OS/2 1.x binaries up to Win2k or XP and I had a Byte issue, from perhaps '94, with a little news article about MS getting the 2.x Presentation Manager running on NT.

Roderick Klein:

--- Quote from: jmase on January 21, 2025, 09:48:19 pm ---The problem as far as I know is not Microsoft but all the other companies IBM used as contractors.
Many of them don't even exist any more so finding out who owns rights might be a nightmare.

When the OS/2 kernel source was leaked (20 years ago?) the people I talked to told me they were able to build and use everything that was there. They also told me that according to text in the code there was a lot of subcontractors that kept their copyright. It was not like a Linux kernel where everything has the same license.

If IBM still have some big customers with OS/2 installations they support then they definitely have the code and the tools to build it. Not that many people know how to build it though.

Yes, the divide between kernel and device drivers makes it easier to support more modern hardware. Less stuff in the kernel makes it easier to expand it from the outside.

But in the end, without open source it will fail, it's quite amazing that modern CPU's still supports 30+ years old code. The only way to save anything imho is to use the Linux kernel and build a "personality" on top. But there are no resources nor business case any more.

--- End quote ---

I can provide some clarity. IBM and Microsoft jointly development OS/2 and. Later from about OS/2 2.1 IBM continued the development of OS/2 without Microsoft.
I talk to some people who used todo work for IBM (like a company in Latvia that wrote part of the USB stack). Even they did not get certain sources.
At the time I understood Scitech (who worked on Scitech Display Doctor) also did not get some of the GRADD sources they requested.

The gist was that IBM has always been strict on on Intellectual Property. When I worked at Mensys, Serenity Systems had a ASL contract for eComStation. This is effectively a kind of OEM agreement for OS/2 (binary access). It was looked into if we could get access to the source under IBM supervision. Well that was not possible. What might have been possible was a so called TCO contract. Uhuuu that was in my recollection not something the funds where available for. I seem to recall that this was just a copy of the sources for OS/2 within IBM. What other rights
that may have given I have forgotten this is more then 20 years ago :-)

From what I heard over the years is that around 1996 when IBM started reducing OS/2 funding internally it seems somewhere some of the OS/2 sources where leaked. From what I understand however not everything of OS/2 was leaked.   But I have no direct evidence of this leak.

Roderick

jmase:

--- Quote from: Dave Yeo on January 21, 2025, 10:25:43 pm ---
--- Quote from: jmase on January 21, 2025, 09:48:19 pm ---The problem as far as I know is not Microsoft but all the other companies IBM used as contractors.
Many of them don't even exist any more so finding out who owns rights might be a nightmare.

--- End quote ---
Seems a bit surprising that the kernel used contractors, device drivers yes.


--- Quote ---When the OS/2 kernel source was leaked (20 years ago?) the people I talked to told me they were able to build and use everything that was there. They also told me that according to text in the code there was a lot of subcontractors that kept their copyright. It was not like a Linux kernel where everything has the same license.

--- End quote ---

Iirc there was less subcontractor in the kernel compared to PM and tools. I guess IBM never thought about letting anyone outside work with the code so it did not matter then.




Interesting.
I remember hearing rumours that the PowerPC version of OS/2 didn't have as many licensing problems and IBM even considered open sourcing it. It would have needed device drivers, network stack etc as well as an LX loader to run regular OS/2 programs. If  it had been released with a good license at the right time, who knows where it may have gone.

Heard that to. I remember visiting a friend with one of these machines with beta version of OS/2 PPC. He was developing a game for the sampler CD.




--- Quote ---If IBM still have some big customers with OS/2 installations they support then they definitely have the code and the tools to build it. Not that many people know how to build it though.

--- End quote ---

I remember Scott saying what a bitch it was to build, and he was the kernel maintainer.
I've also heard rumors that, yes some big customers (banks?) did have the source.

Quite probable that some big customers has a CD (or several) with encrypted sourcecode. If IBM disappeared or refused to modify things for them they would be able to get the key from some thirdparty (lawyers).




--- Quote ---Yes, the divide between kernel and device drivers makes it easier to support more modern hardware. Less stuff in the kernel makes it easier to expand it from the outside.

But in the end, without open source it will fail, it's quite amazing that modern CPU's still supports 30+ years old code. The only way to save anything imho is to use the Linux kernel and build a "personality" on top. But there are no resources nor business case any more.

--- End quote ---

Well the last kernel updates were more like 20 years age. They included supporting SSE etc and fixed some timing issues to boot on what then was modern hardware, they seem to have future proofed it enough that the later kernels can still boot on fairly modern hardware. My Warp 4 install still boots on my 7th generation I5, WPS fails to load though.
The ReactOS kernel would maybe be a better choice to support OS/2. NT did start as OS/2 v3 NT, supported OS/2 1.x binaries up to Win2k or XP and I had a Byte issue, from perhaps '94, with a little news article about MS getting the 2.x Presentation Manager running on NT.

--- End quote ---


The ReactOS kernel is probably better as a kernel but to get drivers for modern hardware then Linux is the way to go.

Another way might (if running apps it what's important) be to make a Wine for OS/2. As it only emulates userspace its easier and even though its heavily geared for games OS/2 do have one real advantage, the API has been set in stone many ears ago. Also, it should be possible to "steal" alot from the Wine code, the API's are quite similar.

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