Author Topic: OS/2 Licensing  (Read 7334 times)

Martin Iturbide

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Re: OS/2 Licensing
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2025, 05:24:12 pm »
Changing the subject from Copyright to Trademark

Can we do something evil since IBM let the OS/2 trademark expire ?  ;D ;D
- https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=74515112&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch
Maybe something like register the logo again and create own our legal T-Shirts.

Any Trademark lawyers friends around?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2025, 05:27:29 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Roderick Klein

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Re: OS/2 Licensing
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2025, 06:39:48 pm »
Changing the subject from Copyright to Trademark

Can we do something evil since IBM let the OS/2 trademark expire ?  ;D ;D
- https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=74515112&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch
Maybe something like register the logo again and create own our legal T-Shirts.

Any Trademark lawyers friends around?

A difficult question. This website might provide some of the answers. And it might also depend per country if you can use a trademark that has expired.
There are a lots of shades or grey in this discussion what is legal todo and what not.
https://harperjames.co.uk/article/dead-trade-mark/#section-6

So you want to use the word OS/2 or the logo's from IBM ?
 From the website above:
"If the dead trade mark is a logo, the copyright in the logo could still belong to a third party such as the original designer. Copyright can last for the life of the author plus seventy years and you may have to conduct additional research if you want to use an existing logo and perhaps secure a written assignment of its copyright if you can locate the original owner."

Roderick Klein

jmase

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Re: OS/2 Licensing
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2025, 11:13:00 pm »
What access does Arca Noae have to OS/2?
Do they have access to source so they can fix problems or is "all" they get old binaries?

I understand that IBM has no interest trying to open all or parts of the code since there are
so many old copyrights but with a NDA Arca Noae should be able to work around that?

Martin Iturbide

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Re: OS/2 Licensing
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2025, 01:49:37 am »
Hello.
What access does Arca Noae have to OS/2?
Do they have access to source so they can fix problems or is "all" they get old binaries?

I understand that IBM has no interest trying to open all or parts of the code since there are
so many old copyrights but with a NDA Arca Noae should be able to work around that?

As far as a I know, IBM did not share the source code of OS/2 with Arca Noae. For what I hear from Lewis, IBM licensed the binaries for Warp 4.52 and the SMP kernel of Warp Server so it can be sold as ArcaOS. I guess it is very similar to the agreement of IBM with Serenity System on the eComStation days. There were old rumors that Stardock didn't went forward with this kind of agreement with IBM on 2000, because they were not going to have access to the source code.

But the good thing is that the OS/2 architecture allows you to extend the functionality (at some limit) to keep it running today on modern hardware. The ACPI driver is a good example of OS/2 being extended for something that was not supported at that time.

I really don't know if IBM still has the OS/2 source code stored somewhere were they can access it. If there is any fear of IBM getting sue by Microsoft by releasing the OS/2 source code, I don't think it applies anymore because the IBM Microsoft Joint Development Agreement gives a 10 year period to maintain the source code confidential. If we count OS/2 2.0 as the last work the did together we are pass that. (personal opinion)

Quote
For a period of ten (10) years from the date of receipt of Source Code from the other party, neither party shall disclose to any third party such Source Code of the other party unless such disclosure is made in accordance with terms and conditions regarding confidentiality substantially similar to those contained in Addendum A to this Agreement, entitled "SAMPLE CONFIDENTIAL DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT"

My dream remains on open source cloning OS/2 components file by file.

Regards
« Last Edit: January 21, 2025, 01:56:17 am by Martin Iturbide »
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Dave Yeo

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Re: OS/2 Licensing
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2025, 02:41:08 am »
To add to what Martin said, I think ArcaOS also got the right to reverse engineer and patch the system binaries including the kernel. These are limited to only being available for ArcaOS.
Neither of us are speaking for Arca Noae and we could be misunderstanding things.

jmase

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Re: OS/2 Licensing
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2025, 09:48:19 pm »
The problem as far as I know is not Microsoft but all the other companies IBM used as contractors.
Many of them don't even exist any more so finding out who owns rights might be a nightmare.

When the OS/2 kernel source was leaked (20 years ago?) the people I talked to told me they were able to build and use everything that was there. They also told me that according to text in the code there was a lot of subcontractors that kept their copyright. It was not like a Linux kernel where everything has the same license.

If IBM still have some big customers with OS/2 installations they support then they definitely have the code and the tools to build it. Not that many people know how to build it though.

Yes, the divide between kernel and device drivers makes it easier to support more modern hardware. Less stuff in the kernel makes it easier to expand it from the outside.

But in the end, without open source it will fail, it's quite amazing that modern CPU's still supports 30+ years old code. The only way to save anything imho is to use the Linux kernel and build a "personality" on top. But there are no resources nor business case any more.


 

Martin Iturbide

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Re: OS/2 Licensing
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2025, 09:51:58 pm »
The only way to save anything imho is to use the Linux kernel and build a "personality" on top. But there are no resources nor business case any more.

This is why today I put my faith in AI to help a developer to open source clone OS/2.  ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Dave Yeo

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Re: OS/2 Licensing
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2025, 10:25:43 pm »
The problem as far as I know is not Microsoft but all the other companies IBM used as contractors.
Many of them don't even exist any more so finding out who owns rights might be a nightmare.

Seems a bit surprising that the kernel used contractors, device drivers yes.

Quote
When the OS/2 kernel source was leaked (20 years ago?) the people I talked to told me they were able to build and use everything that was there. They also told me that according to text in the code there was a lot of subcontractors that kept their copyright. It was not like a Linux kernel where everything has the same license.

Interesting.
I remember hearing rumours that the PowerPC version of OS/2 didn't have as many licensing problems and IBM even considered open sourcing it. It would have needed device drivers, network stack etc as well as an LX loader to run regular OS/2 programs. If  it had been released with a good license at the right time, who knows where it may have gone.

Quote
If IBM still have some big customers with OS/2 installations they support then they definitely have the code and the tools to build it. Not that many people know how to build it though.

I remember Scott saying what a bitch it was to build, and he was the kernel maintainer.
I've also heard rumors that, yes some big customers (banks?) did have the source.

Quote
Yes, the divide between kernel and device drivers makes it easier to support more modern hardware. Less stuff in the kernel makes it easier to expand it from the outside.

But in the end, without open source it will fail, it's quite amazing that modern CPU's still supports 30+ years old code. The only way to save anything imho is to use the Linux kernel and build a "personality" on top. But there are no resources nor business case any more.

Well the last kernel updates were more like 20 years age. They included supporting SSE etc and fixed some timing issues to boot on what then was modern hardware, they seem to have future proofed it enough that the later kernels can still boot on fairly modern hardware. My Warp 4 install still boots on my 7th generation I5, WPS fails to load though.
The ReactOS kernel would maybe be a better choice to support OS/2. NT did start as OS/2 v3 NT, supported OS/2 1.x binaries up to Win2k or XP and I had a Byte issue, from perhaps '94, with a little news article about MS getting the 2.x Presentation Manager running on NT.

Roderick Klein

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Re: OS/2 Licensing
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2025, 12:19:13 am »
The problem as far as I know is not Microsoft but all the other companies IBM used as contractors.
Many of them don't even exist any more so finding out who owns rights might be a nightmare.

When the OS/2 kernel source was leaked (20 years ago?) the people I talked to told me they were able to build and use everything that was there. They also told me that according to text in the code there was a lot of subcontractors that kept their copyright. It was not like a Linux kernel where everything has the same license.

If IBM still have some big customers with OS/2 installations they support then they definitely have the code and the tools to build it. Not that many people know how to build it though.

Yes, the divide between kernel and device drivers makes it easier to support more modern hardware. Less stuff in the kernel makes it easier to expand it from the outside.

But in the end, without open source it will fail, it's quite amazing that modern CPU's still supports 30+ years old code. The only way to save anything imho is to use the Linux kernel and build a "personality" on top. But there are no resources nor business case any more.

I can provide some clarity. IBM and Microsoft jointly development OS/2 and. Later from about OS/2 2.1 IBM continued the development of OS/2 without Microsoft.
I talk to some people who used todo work for IBM (like a company in Latvia that wrote part of the USB stack). Even they did not get certain sources.
At the time I understood Scitech (who worked on Scitech Display Doctor) also did not get some of the GRADD sources they requested.

The gist was that IBM has always been strict on on Intellectual Property. When I worked at Mensys, Serenity Systems had a ASL contract for eComStation. This is effectively a kind of OEM agreement for OS/2 (binary access). It was looked into if we could get access to the source under IBM supervision. Well that was not possible. What might have been possible was a so called TCO contract. Uhuuu that was in my recollection not something the funds where available for. I seem to recall that this was just a copy of the sources for OS/2 within IBM. What other rights
that may have given I have forgotten this is more then 20 years ago :-)

From what I heard over the years is that around 1996 when IBM started reducing OS/2 funding internally it seems somewhere some of the OS/2 sources where leaked. From what I understand however not everything of OS/2 was leaked.   But I have no direct evidence of this leak.

Roderick

jmase

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Re: OS/2 Licensing
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2025, 05:06:58 pm »
The problem as far as I know is not Microsoft but all the other companies IBM used as contractors.
Many of them don't even exist any more so finding out who owns rights might be a nightmare.
Seems a bit surprising that the kernel used contractors, device drivers yes.

Quote
When the OS/2 kernel source was leaked (20 years ago?) the people I talked to told me they were able to build and use everything that was there. They also told me that according to text in the code there was a lot of subcontractors that kept their copyright. It was not like a Linux kernel where everything has the same license.

Iirc there was less subcontractor in the kernel compared to PM and tools. I guess IBM never thought about letting anyone outside work with the code so it did not matter then.




Interesting.
I remember hearing rumours that the PowerPC version of OS/2 didn't have as many licensing problems and IBM even considered open sourcing it. It would have needed device drivers, network stack etc as well as an LX loader to run regular OS/2 programs. If  it had been released with a good license at the right time, who knows where it may have gone.

Heard that to. I remember visiting a friend with one of these machines with beta version of OS/2 PPC. He was developing a game for the sampler CD.



Quote
If IBM still have some big customers with OS/2 installations they support then they definitely have the code and the tools to build it. Not that many people know how to build it though.

I remember Scott saying what a bitch it was to build, and he was the kernel maintainer.
I've also heard rumors that, yes some big customers (banks?) did have the source.

Quite probable that some big customers has a CD (or several) with encrypted sourcecode. If IBM disappeared or refused to modify things for them they would be able to get the key from some thirdparty (lawyers).



Quote
Yes, the divide between kernel and device drivers makes it easier to support more modern hardware. Less stuff in the kernel makes it easier to expand it from the outside.

But in the end, without open source it will fail, it's quite amazing that modern CPU's still supports 30+ years old code. The only way to save anything imho is to use the Linux kernel and build a "personality" on top. But there are no resources nor business case any more.

Well the last kernel updates were more like 20 years age. They included supporting SSE etc and fixed some timing issues to boot on what then was modern hardware, they seem to have future proofed it enough that the later kernels can still boot on fairly modern hardware. My Warp 4 install still boots on my 7th generation I5, WPS fails to load though.
The ReactOS kernel would maybe be a better choice to support OS/2. NT did start as OS/2 v3 NT, supported OS/2 1.x binaries up to Win2k or XP and I had a Byte issue, from perhaps '94, with a little news article about MS getting the 2.x Presentation Manager running on NT.


The ReactOS kernel is probably better as a kernel but to get drivers for modern hardware then Linux is the way to go.

Another way might (if running apps it what's important) be to make a Wine for OS/2. As it only emulates userspace its easier and even though its heavily geared for games OS/2 do have one real advantage, the API has been set in stone many ears ago. Also, it should be possible to "steal" alot from the Wine code, the API's are quite similar.


jmase

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Re: OS/2 Licensing
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2025, 05:29:49 pm »
The problem as far as I know is not Microsoft but all the other companies IBM used as contractors.
Many of them don't even exist any more so finding out who owns rights might be a nightmare.

When the OS/2 kernel source was leaked (20 years ago?) the people I talked to told me they were able to build and use everything that was there. They also told me that according to text in the code there was a lot of subcontractors that kept their copyright. It was not like a Linux kernel where everything has the same license.

If IBM still have some big customers with OS/2 installations they support then they definitely have the code and the tools to build it. Not that many people know how to build it though.

Yes, the divide between kernel and device drivers makes it easier to support more modern hardware. Less stuff in the kernel makes it easier to expand it from the outside.

But in the end, without open source it will fail, it's quite amazing that modern CPU's still supports 30+ years old code. The only way to save anything imho is to use the Linux kernel and build a "personality" on top. But there are no resources nor business case any more.

I can provide some clarity. IBM and Microsoft jointly development OS/2 and. Later from about OS/2 2.1 IBM continued the development of OS/2 without Microsoft.
I talk to some people who used todo work for IBM (like a company in Latvia that wrote part of the USB stack). Even they did not get certain sources.
At the time I understood Scitech (who worked on Scitech Display Doctor) also did not get some of the GRADD sources they requested.

The gist was that IBM has always been strict on on Intellectual Property. When I worked at Mensys, Serenity Systems had a ASL contract for eComStation. This is effectively a kind of OEM agreement for OS/2 (binary access). It was looked into if we could get access to the source under IBM supervision. Well that was not possible. What might have been possible was a so called TCO contract. Uhuuu that was in my recollection not something the funds where available for. I seem to recall that this was just a copy of the sources for OS/2 within IBM. What other rights
that may have given I have forgotten this is more then 20 years ago :-)

From what I heard over the years is that around 1996 when IBM started reducing OS/2 funding internally it seems somewhere some of the OS/2 sources where leaked. From what I understand however not everything of OS/2 was leaked.   But I have no direct evidence of this leak.

Roderick

Sounds resonable, 30 years ago open source was not an important concept and things ran on the users computer. Was much harder to protect your software. Today much/most? stuff runs on internet  where its impossible to get the source (C#, Java, PHP or what ever) and software are for hire, not for owning.

About the leak, the person that "put he's teet" into it was after some work able to build the kernel. All or most command line tools were there. PM was mostly complete iirc but no Object Desktop and no networking. This fits with IBM and IP protection. Networking was build by another part of IBM and possibly Object Desktop also, so the kernel and PM team might not have had any access to that code.

I dont know who the leaker was, my best contact was an ex Lotus employee who had access to internal documents and Lotus stuff, but not OS/2 code. But I knew who worked and built with the leak. This is all 25-30 years ago.

The only thing I have left from that time is the programs I developed, their source was put on hobbes a long time ago. My oldest backup I saved is from 2008 and then I was forced into Windows.

I'm proud to be a Linux users :-)