Author Topic: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update  (Read 6062 times)

Ben

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Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« on: July 31, 2014, 05:13:57 pm »
My main build machine was fried by an electrical storm this morning.

You have my sympathies. I can only hope that you have good backups.

Out of curiosity, were you using a UPS?

« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 08:09:16 pm by Ben »

Gregg Young

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2014, 07:57:49 pm »

Out of curiosity, where you using a UPS?

[/color]

I am back up. The hard drive survived. I was not using a UPS. It was on a surge suppressor. Thanls

Ben

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2014, 03:55:03 pm »

Out of curiosity, where you using a UPS?


I am back up. The hard drive survived. I was not using a UPS. It was on a surge suppressor. Thanls

Surge Suppressors are a complete waste of money. 100% of the time the surge is through the system with damage done, before the suppressor even kicks in. Essentially they are just expensive extension cords that give the illusion of protection. I deter clients from using them whenever the opportunity presents itself.


Boris

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2014, 04:27:42 pm »

Out of curiosity, where you using a UPS?


I am back up. The hard drive survived. I was not using a UPS. It was on a surge suppressor. Thanls

Surge Suppressors are a complete waste of money. 100% of the time the surge is through the system with damage done, before the suppressor even kicks in. Essentially they are just expensive extension cords that give the illusion of protection. I deter clients from using them whenever the opportunity presents itself.



There are standalone surge protectors. If you are talking about those that are built in power strips, then I agree to you.
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Andreas Schnellbacher

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2014, 04:36:05 pm »
Surge Suppressors are a complete waste of money.
In almost all cases. What helps is a three-level surge suppression, which includes the entire wiring of a building and also the metal parts on its roof. Using only the lowest level can't help.

Doug Bissett

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2014, 04:40:45 pm »
Quote
Surge Suppressors are a complete waste of money. 100% of the time the surge is through the system with damage done, before the suppressor even kicks in.

This is not entirely true. Surge suppressors do work, ONCE. The second shot does the damage (and that could be seconds, or months, after the first shot). It is often impossible to tell if a surge has damaged the suppressor, even if somebody does look at the indicator (if there is one).

What does more damage is when the power goes off, then comes back on (two, or three, times), before the system completely turns off. UPS is the answer to that problem. They also give you an opportunity to save work, and, with the proper supporting software, and settings, they will shut down the system properly (not saving work), before they run out of power.

Andreas Schnellbacher

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2014, 05:42:05 pm »
Surge suppressors do work, ONCE. The second shot does the damage (and that could be seconds, or months, after the first shot). It is often impossible to tell if a surge has damaged the suppressor, even if somebody does look at the indicator (if there is one).
You really need the three-level suppression I mentioned in my previous posting. You also need it for the UPS. (That doesn't mean that there exist many lucky people whose equipment survived a lightning without a damage.)

[added]
The association of German electricians uses these terms (roughly translated): coarse, middle and fine protection. I would assign the protection of a special plug board to the "super fine protection" level.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 07:37:34 pm by Andreas Schnellbacher »

Ian Manners

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2014, 08:51:50 pm »
I have proper surge suppressors (If they blow, they change color) installed in my front power distribution board along with earth leakage current trip relays.

I also use lightning tubes on the phone line, I will know when they have been used and failed, because I wont be typing this ;-)
If I get hit by a direct lighting strike its all toast anyway, just in varying degrees of toasted but that's why we have backups.
You do what you do to minimise the damage, and as with all insurance you trade off between cost, effectiveness and risk.

Inside the house  I only use filtering to remove noise and spikes (fridge, washing machine, vacuum etc).

I have seen surge suppressor power boards that are 'ok' but these have not been the norm. You really have to open them up and know what you are looking for so it's a bit of a lottery. I've also seen ones with a thinner earth lead compared to active and neutral lines... sigh.

I gave up on UPS's, power failures are rare here now, and the UPS normally fry's itself before its really needed.
Cheers
Ian B Manners

Andreas Schnellbacher

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2014, 09:13:14 pm »
I gave up on UPS's, power failures are rare here now, and the UPS normally fry's itself before its really needed.
Here in northern Germany it's the same. The accus have to be replaced every five years to ensure reliable work. In most cases it's more expensive than buying a new UPS.

BTW: In professional usage the accus are replaced and the UPS provides seamless power without a switching pause which consumer parts don't supply.

Doug Bissett

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2014, 01:28:51 am »
Quote
I gave up on UPS's, power failures are rare here now, and the UPS normally fry's itself before its really needed.

Power failures are rare here too, but they do happen (mostly automobile to power pole interference   :o  ). Most of the time the power goes off, then on, about 4 times, before it goes off, and stays off, or on. That is just about the worst thing that can happen to computer equipment, and surge protection doesn't prevent damage in that case.

I have found the lifetime of UPSs to be almost "forever" (as long as you test them occasionally, and replace the battery when required). I have an old Tripplite, that is, at least, 15 years old. It is on the third battery, and may be due for another one, soon. My more modern APC unit is about 5 years old now, so it may need a battery too.

Ben

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2014, 07:22:07 pm »

Out of curiosity, where you using a UPS?


I am back up. The hard drive survived. I was not using a UPS. It was on a surge suppressor. Thanls

Surge Suppressors are a complete waste of money. 100% of the time the surge is through the system with damage done, before the suppressor even kicks in. Essentially they are just expensive extension cords that give the illusion of protection. I deter clients from using them whenever the opportunity presents itself.



There are standalone surge protectors. If you are talking about those that are built in power strips, then I agree to you.

Sure, but they cost a great deal of money and are oriented towards mid-sized businesses and up, or a highly successful small business... meaning beyond venue of this discussion other than for technical purposes, but true.

Ben

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2014, 07:24:33 pm »
Quote
Surge Suppressors are a complete waste of money. 100% of the time the surge is through the system with damage done, before the suppressor even kicks in.

This is not entirely true. Surge suppressors do work, ONCE. The second shot does the damage (and that could be seconds, or months, after the first shot). It is often impossible to tell if a surge has damaged the suppressor, even if somebody does look at the indicator (if there is one).

What does more damage is when the power goes off, then comes back on (two, or three, times), before the system completely turns off. UPS is the answer to that problem. They also give you an opportunity to save work, and, with the proper supporting software, and settings, they will shut down the system properly (not saving work), before they run out of power.

I have heard that one many times... always the last cry of he-who-buys-into-the-marketing.

Like I said, I have spent many hours talking to clients who want to scrimp on their protection. Always they regret it; it is a matter of "when", not a matter of "if".
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 08:08:09 pm by Ben »

Ben

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2014, 08:06:48 pm »
I have proper surge suppressors (If they blow, they change color) installed in my front power distribution board along with earth leakage current trip relays.

I also use lightning tubes on the phone line, I will know when they have been used and failed, because I wont be typing this ;-)
If I get hit by a direct lighting strike its all toast anyway, just in varying degrees of toasted but that's why we have backups.
You do what you do to minimise the damage, and as with all insurance you trade off between cost, effectiveness and risk.

Inside the house  I only use filtering to remove noise and spikes (fridge, washing machine, vacuum etc).

I have seen surge suppressor power boards that are 'ok' but these have not been the norm. You really have to open them up and know what you are looking for so it's a bit of a lottery. I've also seen ones with a thinner earth lead compared to active and neutral lines... sigh.

I gave up on UPS's, power failures are rare here now, and the UPS normally fry's itself before its really needed.

Wow.

That's a different quintal of fish all together. There is no danger of anything like that going on in Canada and lightning tubes are unheard of.

Sounds to me like what you really need down there is a mechanism to bottle all of that power! 8)

Doug Bissett

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2014, 04:08:49 am »
Quote
I have heard that one many times... always the last cry of he-who-buys-into-the-marketing.

Marketing has nothing to do with it. I have seen the results, many times, as a hardware service specialist with IBM. "Power bumps", as they are known, cause more problems for hardware, than anything other than heat. An UPS rides through those things, preventing damage.

Lightening, on the other hand, will also damage an UPS, if it gets past the most basic lightening stopper. What is that, you ask? Well, remember that lightening cannot go around sharp corners. The lines, where they enter the house (assuming overhead feed), always have what they call a "drip loop". Electrical workers are told that that is to prevent rain from following the wires into the house (it seems that most people just refuse to believe that lightening cannot go around sharp corners). It is, in fact, a rudimentary attempt to stop lightening from entering the house. Sometimes, it might work, but usually the loop is not tight enough to be effective. It probably works to keep water out too. One of the most effective ways to stop lightening, is to simply tie a knot in the power cords (preferably the one that feeds the surge protector). I learned this from a power specialist in Atlanta Georgia USA, where they get some wicked lightening storms.

Ben

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Re: Surge protectors, was Re: mmioMP3.dll update
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2014, 04:54:50 pm »
Well...

OS/2 World Forum just ate two attempts at a reply to this.

Ah well, enough time wasted. No more, no more!