Author Topic: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation  (Read 38649 times)

Martin Iturbide

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I'm sorry Alexander that your forum thread got hi-jacked by this old conflict. There is a old conflict between Eugene, that sells eCS russian software, and some other Russian developer groups.

We are merry and fun community of users :)  ....but sadly I need to reply hard on this issues and try to explain a more philosophical point of view about Open Source to Eugene.

Eugene, it is hard to discuss with you because you don't support the Open Source model, and sometime it is hard to understand your english. (my personal opinion) Money is important, and developers needs to be paid, but that does not mean that it is obligatory to produce close source software and charge for license. To me close source software today is future abandonware... because everybody will leave to be an OS/2 user in one way or other ..... or do you think we are going to leave this life alive? :)

Selling license is a 90's model that is getting close to the end. Selling software in commodities like Operating Systems, Office Suites, Web Application servers and a lot of other software sales are getting complicated because of the options you have in the market.

Eugene, you offer a library that is freeware (not open source), and someday you may change your mind, you may start charging money for it, or even someday you may die (like everybody here) and all your software will became abandonware. Instead the open source software has the possibility to live forever without depending on the developer. Please try to embrace the open source model. Thanks to open source we have firefox, OpenOffice, XWorkplace..... yes, the effort of the developers is important, but if we didn't have Firefox open sourced in the first place today we will not have a browser at all. Money is important, but this is a community, not a marketplace anymore.

Quote
....when you made efforts to collect money for new fraud (port network drivers, etc).
Eugene, it seems that you don't understand that this kind of comments hurts you instead of others. We all know the issues on both sides (eCo Software vs Russian developers) and I'm sick of that. We are not here to define who is good or bad, we only discuss things.  Eugene, if you have problems that hurts your business, please start with legal actions and please stop this.

Returning to open source. Open Source is the only way we have to reduce the #1 issue of this community.
The #1 issue is that this is orphan platform, IBM dumped us, and nobody has OS/2 source code available to keep improving it components. I want to this platform to live forever and evolve in time, while other just want drivers, other just want their things working, other just wants to make money and other just wants their business software running. On which side are you?

Open Source will set the platform free, once we get our freedom, we can turn from a community to market again, and you can sell all your products to get millions. But right now, if we want this platform to endure in long future we need to collaborate, and open source is a formal way to do it with clear rules, and we all need to put the shoulder. 

Or.... we can try to squeeze the last dollar to the 400 (?) OS/2 community users left? Should we turn OS2World under paid subscription? :)     ....oh.. that was what killed WarpCity.... I should stop digging into the past, I may wake a Balrog :)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 05:33:53 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: Re: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2014, 11:00:03 am »
To Martin Iturbide:

* I don't have conflicts with russian developers. We all, all developers of OS/2 shareware applications, all users have conflict with the pirates. And os2world.com moderators have verified this and were protecting us in the past.

* eCo Software supports Open Source model, we have some open source programs.

* Yes, you can sit on a mountain and wait when OS will be opensourced, but what to do today? Today the developers need libraries, the users need tools and applications.

* Do you have examples of applications which were created for OS/2 and then opensourced? XWorkPlace development and opensourcing was paid by eComStation. More examples?

* All this discussions about open source are not actual. When possible, the program is opensourced. You should understand that opensourced program are more expensive than shareware. Somebody should pay full price for the program.

* "Open source" topic is not the most important. Better discuss how to use OS/2 for engineer tasks, for business tasks, .. 

« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 11:06:55 am by Eugene Gorbunoff »

Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: Re: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2014, 11:19:09 am »
To Martin Iturbide:

Article "OpenSource OS/2 / eComStation - fake target"
(russian text) http://ru.ecomstation.ru/showarticle.php?id=305


What topic is more important?
"Let's open source  OS/2"
or
* What Solutions to develop, what are the areas of eComStation usage?
* What unique functions to implement in eCS? in user interface, in functionality?
* What libraries and development tools do we have in eCS?
* What applications to develop to attract more users and extend the market?
* How to overcome the "barriers"?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 11:25:08 am by Eugene Gorbunoff »

agena

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Re: Re: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2014, 01:36:36 pm »
> I'm sorry Alexander that your forum thread got hi-jacked by this old conflict.

Pax in terra !  :)

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Discussion about Open Soure - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2014, 03:17:22 pm »
Hi

I splited the topic to reply Eugene. I'm going to try again to explain but not necessary for Eugene to understand because I had tried without success on the past. The intention is to try to reply the questions in a straight way:

Quote
I don't have conflicts with russian developers. We all, all developers of OS/2 shareware applications, all users have conflict with the pirates. And os2world.com moderators have verified this and were protecting us in the past.
Yes, but that is no reason to call Pasha and Boris frauds, when they just submited a proposal that OS2world was not able to accept (reason was explained in the forum - timing).  There is not reasson to label people, I don't like it even for you.

Quote
eCo Software supports Open Source model, we have some open source programs.
Please let me know, the one one I know is the Animated mouse pointer derivated work you have. PianoLaunch pad was based in open source, but since it was BSD license, you closed the source code of the derivative works .

Quote
Yes, you can sit on a mountain and wait when OS will be opensourced, but what to do today? Today the developers need libraries, the users need tools and applications.
Who is saying sit on a mountain and wait? I had told in the past that we need to support eComStation, Mensys, Bitwise works, everyone, but that we also need to at the same time have a long term strategy for the platform, and that strategy should be open source the close source components of it. Please everybody, supporting the idea of an open source OS/2 is not just sitting back and relax until it happen, it does not mean stop selling OS/2 to corporate software. It means hard work for everyone, it means chipping in at every level. (Money, code, documentation, help support, etc).

Quote
Do you have examples of applications which were created for OS/2 and then opensourced? XWorkPlace development and opensourcing was paid by eComStation. More examples?
I don't know why you are always wrong with this. XWorkplace was not created by Mensys or Serenity Systems, it was created by "Ulrich Möller", the only attorney on earth that knows WPS programming :)    Serenity and Mensys only paid other developers to fix some bugs and to give support. If Ulrich will not open sourced XWorkplace, it is very possible that we will not have it on eCS today. The same with WarpIn, Airboot, and all the open source software that it is for eComStation.

Without the people that gave his software as open source, we will not have eCS as we have it today. Community efforts was very important on eCS and people will not recognize it.


All this discussions about open source are not actual. When possible, the program is opensourced. You should understand that opensourced program are more expensive than shareware. Somebody should pay full price for the program.
Has someone been reading the Microsoft sponsored Forrester report again? Open source reduced the risk of what happened us. IBM dumped us, and we have an orphan platform, with open source that does not happens. If Redhad goes out of business today, someone else can grab the source code and continue Linux. If someone freaks out on the Joomla community and starts selling it for $1M, someone will fork the project and continue with it. Open Source is a way to reduce the risk to get dumped.

Quote
"Open source" topic is not the most important. Better discuss how to use OS/2 for engineer tasks, for business tasks, .. 
Discussing how to use OS/2 for business and engineers is interesting. But when you try to attract them to eComStation, they saw that Mensys does not make any announcement, they hear that Mensys do not have all the OS/2 source code, they see that we lack a lot of drivers, and they see that OS/2 can be dumped again just like IBM did.... plus they see the price tag on a software they will only use to experiment. Does that attract developers and business people?

If we have a plan to open source the platform and we say, we need help on this , and this and show some progress, that will attract more people to the community. (in part)

....to be continued.
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Martin Iturbide

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Re: Discussion about Open Soure - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2014, 03:22:03 pm »
Eugene.

I just want to ask you one thing. What will happen with your software if you get hit by a car tomorrow and die? Who will take charge of you costumers? Who will be running you company? Is the source code of you software in the office of a lawyer that can release if to the public if you go out of business?

With open source I just don't care about that. Anybody can replace me and continue updating the Wiki and Github if I die. Open Source allowed everybody to continue developing XWorkplace, WarpIn when Ulrich left the community. I appreciate a lot the people that had turned their OS/2 software as open source, they preferred to share their efforts and knowledge instead of having the source code in shelf.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 04:32:04 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: Discussion about Open Soure - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2014, 03:28:18 pm »
* XWorkPlace was paid by Serenity Systems. Do you have *more* examples? Do you see the reality? There is no active open source projects  ( we don't talk about ported software).

* It's clear that if source code is published - it's better. But the reality is different. There is no sponsor which goes buy out the source code from the developers of OS/2 applications.

* So all declarations "Open source, open source, .." are empty. And dangerous when Open source fanatics attack the developers of standard OS/2 apps and libraries.

 

Ian Manners

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Re: Discussion about Open Soure - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2014, 03:47:00 pm »
Eugene,

You talk as if you have been educated by Microsoft, and your words suggest that you have no idea what 'Open Source' software is, or what it is about.
Until you know what you are talking about, you should refrain from commenting.

I will see if I can find some good links to explain it to you, Martin or someone else might beat me to it.

Also, please read and understand what I have posted here :-
http://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,481.msg4536.html#msg4536
Cheers
Ian B Manners

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: Discussion about Open Soure - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2014, 04:03:39 pm »
A good example for recent published software related to OS/2 that is for me as an end user "free of charge" is the QSLoader. Even if it is not "open sourced" it is software highly appriciated.

The same goes with the Webcam/Stylus/Touch Software and Drivers from Wim Brul, the USB Drivers from Lars Erdmann, the latest and then free release of Emperoar TV and so on.

Xworkplace is well known developed be Ullrich Möller. It is under GPL so far. If Serenity did pay something or not is not important (As fas as I know Ullrich Möller did get no money for this - but the only reliable answer could come from himself) - it is open sourced.

In my opinion:

- Open source clones of OS/2 parts is a good idea, may be the only long shot strategy for OS/2 - but it seems to me a mountain to high to climb. It would need reverse engineering - and the well known problems to WPS Programming

- More realisitc allways seemd to me to be a way to clone the WPS on top of a Linux system, a "OS/2 distribution" - I would guess this would need less work than reprogramming OS/2 but one would get rid of the most driver problems and concentrate on fewer tasks

- ecs.ru want to attract new users what is obvious impossible, other than those having 6 or 7 years old Laptops. And even if it runs on modern hardware - as it works on some - there is not that bunch of application that is needed. I.e. no "Skype" or something like this, no possibility to sync with Phones, Onlinebanking and so on and so on. Sadly it goes the other way round - only a few users are still using OS/2, and even fewer are using it as their daily working system. There is no "new market" for OS/2, it is a fortune that some industrial clients are still there. The most important "SHOWSTOPPER" is the price: as it is not opensource like Linux and because of the licening model it need to cost something. And this is to much. I need just to take a look at my three son:

- today - besides the industry maybe - most or the "usual" customers are not interested in what kind of operating system runs their hardware - it just has to run and has to be as invisible as possible. The applications are more important. If the application is not availiable for this Operating System (something Windows Mobile/Windows Phone has to learn for years now) it can be lightyears better than any other - but the users still switch to the other (Apple, Android - vise versa). And for sure my son would not pay money for an operating system - even if it would make sense in case of stability and so on - when they can get everything for free (even if the pay for it with the Hardware or phone). A good example is STEAM - that is being ported to Linux in the last years.

- the best what could have happen to the OS/2 community was (the best before was switching APCI and so on away from ecs.ru to D. Azariewicz etc. in 2010) the upcoming of Lewis Rosenthals new company working together with bitwise and the developers. That gives me the hope and impression that my OS/2 systems may survive for another five years or so.

Meanwhile I try to build my on DVD - with QSLoader, OS/4 kernel and some more stuff. I will give ACPI from eCS a shot with this combination as well (as well as the one from OS/4), just to see what will happen. It is based on Warp 4.52 and will not contain any eco runtimes or dlls.

I am looking forward to our user meeting in Cologne to discuss with other users in a gentle, realistic and calm way.

So - I stay cool and see in wich way the new companies will surprise me  :D

I am wondering how long one can ride the dead horse...  :D


« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 09:08:56 pm by Sigurd Fastenrath »

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: Discussion about Open Soure - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2014, 04:39:52 pm »
Eugene,You talk as if you have been educated by Microsoft,

Upps - according to your own rules that sounds a bit strange, doesn't it?  ;) ::)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 09:10:29 pm by Sigurd Fastenrath »

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Discussion about Open Soure - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2014, 04:58:34 pm »
Eugene,You talk as if you have been educated by Microsoft,

Upps - according to your own rules that sounds a bit strange, doesn't it?

It does not sound like an insult to me. I have good friends working on Microsoft :)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 05:34:45 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Martin Iturbide

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Re: Discussion about Open Source - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2014, 05:00:21 pm »
I'm sorry Eugene, but you don't seem to get reasons. Just answer "What will happen to your software if you suddenly die ?" - I know it is extreme, but it may happen to you and me.

Thanks for sharing Sigurd

Quote
- Open source clones of OS/2 parts is a good idea, may be the only long shot strategy for OS/2 - but it seems to me a mountain to high to climb. It would need reverse engineering - and the well known problems to WPS Programming

The issue I think is that we don't have a long term strategy, and people that have corporate sponsors also do not have it. I understand the dream is big "AN OPEN SOURCE OS/2 CLONE!!!"... wow that's big.... But a big dream is just made of little efforts that adds up. 

It will be as nice to start with PM (Dreaming in Technicolor) following a process like this:
- "ok, let's make an open source of PM". .... (wow that is too much...Big dream)
- "Here are the components of PM API" .... link ... (wow there are too many components)
- "uhmmm I think that "Window_Functions" API compoment may be a good place to start" ....link ..... (wow... that is still too much)
- "I'm going to start cloning WinInitialize()"..... link.... (that seems to be more manageable)

If WinInitialize() is cloned (maybe it had been done already on the past, I just grab it as example), and the source code shared,  it will a little step, maybe useless right now, but it will be an step. The sum of little steps can pull a big dream. And maybe that little sum of small steps can inspire other people to join to make the little steps move faster.

Quote
-More realisitc allways seemd to me to be a way to clone the WPS on top of a Linux system, a "OS/2 distribution" - I would guess this would need less work than reprogramming OS/2 but one would get of the most driver problems and concentrate on fewer tasks

I also thought first about WPS. The best idea will be to extend the XWorkplace project and convert that project with the goal of replacing the WPS classes one by one with open source code. But after reading more about the OS/2 architecture, WPS is builded over SOM, and SOM/WPS runs over PM.

I got to the conclusion (I don't know if I'm complete right) that the base of OS/2 GUI applications is PM. The API that constructs how the OS/2 GUI looks is part of PM and it far more important that SOM/WPS. (personal opinion).
I got to that conclusion to see the quantity of WPS based applications that it exists. (link) . Compared to the PM applications that runs without SOM/WPS, the WPS applications quantity is very small. The soul of running OS/2 GUI application is in fact PM.

What it will be incredible is to start cloning PM, and that IBM's OS/2 SOM and WPS keep running over it. SOM/WPS may be important for the OS/2's desktop, icons and  but PM is real thing that has the OS/2 GUI soul. In final words (sorry I drift too much) PM is OS/2 GUI, WPS is the desktop shell and SOM is the OO framework on which WPS was constructed.

So, cloning WPS over linux may be able to produce a similar OS/2 desktop on Linux, but PM applications (The majority of GUI OS/2 apps) will be incompatible. PM is the the real thing, but to be honestly I will prefer to have a PM open source clone running over OS/2-ecs first, and if someone wants to port it over Linux, he is welcome to do it.

But is someone will like to start with WPS open source clone, I will also support that project !!  I will support and help (in whatever I can) to anyone that produces a open source DLL and EXE that can replace any IBM close source component of OS/2.

Quote
I am looking forward to our user meeting in Cologne to discuss with other users in a gentle, realistic and calm way.

....but there is no problem also discussing here, I try to be always calm :)   Sometime the discussion may not be complete realistic, but I had found out that it is good to "dream big" and after that you start something small, but the "big dream" gives you the goal.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 05:18:11 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Martin Iturbide

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Re: Discussion about Open Soure - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2014, 05:24:03 pm »
Quote
I am wondering how long one can ride the dead horse...

Wow a missed that one.. in my case, how long can you have a hobbie? Months? Years? a Lifetime?

I started to think that time is not important for the ones that are here for fun and do not have a business model with OS/2. This is a community site, while it remains fun we are going to still hang out here :)
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Eugene Gorbunoff

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Re: Discussion about Open Soure - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2014, 05:35:51 pm »
To Martin Iturbide:

* XWorkPlace.. As I remember, there was XFile WPS extender (XFolder + WarpEnhancer + XPager). and XWorkPlace was developed with the support of Serenity Systems. It was impossible develop this project without this investments. There was D-Day, there was collaboration with eCS developers, short terms to complete the project. This is the example of open sourced program ordered and supported by the commercial company.

* OK, AirBoot - good example, WarpIn - good example. It's impossible sell this programs, so it's normal that this apps were open sourced.

* Do you have more examples of apps developed in OS/2 and open sourced from the beginning?

* Piano Launchpad doesn't use GPL or other code. It was developed by our professional WPS developer. Of course, we have read the examples from hobbes.

* "What will happen to your software if you suddenly die " - closed source doesn't mean that the source code is stored in the Tower and nobody can see it. Other *Professional* OS/2 developers get access to our source code by request. If an accident happens, then the developers which have access to this code and have part of rights will make the decision what to do with this modules.

* One more time: we all agree that open source is good, it's easy to maintain, fix. Main question to you: who will pay for open sourcing? For open sourcing of existing apps. For creation of new and open sourced?



To Ian Manners:

> You talk as if you have been educated by Microsoft,

I was educated on the streets of OS/2 town. The market here is different from real life. OS/2 dollar is 10x more expensive (ten times). And yes, I respect Microsoft corporation.


> you have no idea what 'Open Source' software is, or what it is about

My arguments:
* I am listening all presentations of Yuri Dario which follows open source way since 90-th
* We have discussed open sourcing million times, russian articles, year 2002: http://ecomstation.ru/showarticle.php?id=63
year 2004: http://ecomstation.ru/showarticle.php?id=102
* I am reading all messages from Martin Iturbide regarding Open Source campaign

And I am working on OS/2 market and eComStation since 1996/1997, interacting with all developers of native software. So I see what happens, what the developers of shareware do.

I agree with all advantages of open sourcing. But I make questions how to apply open sourcing to OS/2 market. Filter (Remove) all open source ported software and you see different picture.





« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 05:43:57 pm by Eugene Gorbunoff »

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Re: Discussion about Open Soure - Was: eCS 2.2 C API documentation
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2014, 05:43:01 pm »