Author Topic: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?  (Read 21773 times)

Martin Iturbide

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[Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« on: November 25, 2014, 03:48:03 pm »
I just posted this news: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?

Before sending anything to Arca Noae, I will like to discuss something first.

When you are asked "what would you like to see next?" on this platform everyone (included me) will reply first "I want to have the driver for "my device" working. And like I discussed it (long discussions that I don't want to repeat) it is only short term. In four years we will be asking for the same thing for newer hardware.

What I will like to see is a "try", an "intention",  an "attempt", a "spark" to have a long term future for the platform (which some people thinks we don't have a future, and I also don't want to repeat that long discussion).

I will really like to see small, but continued effort to clone OS/2 Presentation Manager since it is an important component in the OS/2-eCS experience.  OS/2 PM API is big, but the idea is to start small selecting which are the components that needs update/replacement first.

- Select little by little small goals of the API to clone (Device Functions, Window functions? or by DLL?)
- Trying to clone PM to run over eCS-OS/2 Warp 4.5x first (we don't want Linux kernel on the way yet)
- Some tricks to mask PM and use Qt  on the background may be interesting (but I don't know at which level Qt requires PM).
- Make it a open source project, so it can "adds up" to the future of the platform and do not became future close source abandonware.
- Consolidate and use the code of other open source projects that can help like FreePM, OSFree, PM++ lib.
- Replace eCS-OS2 PM DLLs one by one, little by little.

And by the way, I'm not saying "Arca Noae, just go on and do it while I watch", I want to help on this with whatever is on my hands.

Any other ideas of what can it be a "long term project" for the platform?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 03:53:32 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Jean-Yves

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2014, 04:53:26 pm »
I'm not sure whether this is doable, but I'd love to see an updated/improved VirtualBox OS/2 Guest Additions package that does not require manual steps and which allows the use of Panorama or SNAP (not sure about licensing there)

I've given up trying to get eCS running on real hardware and actually rather prefer it in a VM



Olafur Gunnlaugsson

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2014, 08:49:29 pm »
I will really like to see small, but continued effort to clone OS/2 Presentation Manager since it is an important component in the OS/2-eCS experience.  OS/2 PM API is big, but the idea is to start small selecting which are the components that needs update/replacement first.

Clone the WPS, the PM is 80's code and concepts that needs to be retired. The effort of more or less straight cloning of OS/2 like OSFree is going to have the same end result as Haiku had in the BeOS world, by the time it becomes a workable system, everyone has lost interest and moved on, all vendors have disappeared and the community not big enough to support itself.

Something like this:
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/barrelfish/

With a x86  emulation layer or virtualiser if on an x86 system, on top of the OS that allows us to run eCS-OS/2 as the front end of the system while we code a modern WPS replacement and tool set, if the base OS becomes outdated or unsupported or in some way undesirable, simply port the emulation layer and WPS replacement/Modern OS/2 API to a new system.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2014, 03:14:45 pm »
Hi Olafur.

I will also support anybody that wants to create a open source clone of WPS, I will also jump into that ship too.

First I will like to remember two things:
- PM is the OS/2 GUI
- WPS is the desktop shell. The objects that organize the GUI to create the desktop interpretation (based on a real's world desktop) of the OS. WPS requires SOM and PM to show itself as it is.

But why, if I had to choose a priority, I will choose PM first (warning, this is the interpretation I do based in my knowledge) :
1) I tried to list all the applications that uses WPS - here it is the list on the wiki. The WPS applications that are available are minimal compared to the PM applications that we have available on this platform. Maybe XWorkplace is the most evolved WPS based project with more classes, but it does not compare to the quantity of applications that requires PM.
2) PM is the real GUI of the OS/2 platform and that will be a definitive real good step on open sourcing the platform and have a continue future for it.

Other alternative like trying to mask the PM methods and behind it use Qt will be interesting too. For example if you replace the method that calls the "Save As.." window from PM and call the one from Qt it can be an interesting trick if it can be done, so the developer do not have to write all the method, only write the "conversion mask" and reuse the Qt code (It requires knowledge of both things Qt and PM). But the trick will have to be that the PM applications think they are using PM while at the end is Qt, and that the application does not stops working/breaks.

Other road is not to clone PM and to try to port other GUI over OS/2-eCS. Unity, Razor-Qt or even the not-yet-created Quantum OS (that uses Qt 5 and QML). On that road what will have is two different and incompatible GUIs and there will be a lot of effort to try start creating applications for that GUI until the majority of users migrate (or start to like)  that new GUI. It will create a lot of friction (just like the initial eCS 1.0 Vs OS/2 Warp 4.5 friction that we used to have on 2000), but maybe in the long term we can have an individual OS/2 users with the new GUI and the legacy users (corporate) that requires PM because they have a PM application that they refuse to leave and does not have an equivalent on the new GUI . So it can be a interesting bumpy road :)   ....and maybe someone will say.. "this is the OS/2-eCS community, isn't PM an important part of the platform?"

My main concern is that we may have ideas, but we don't have any developers, money or corporate support that are willing to jump into any of this possibilities. I only wish I  can do anything to try to convince someone with more resource (money/knowledge/time) like  Arca Noae, Bitwise works, Mensys/XEU, or individual developer groups to do something for the long term (and open) future of the platform. They are doing a great job on what the do, but nobody wants (or do not have the time) to start touching the things under the OS/2 hood. The excuse I get is "if it is not broken, don't fix it"...but to me it means "boiling the frog" (the metaphor)
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Mike La Martina

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2014, 06:45:07 pm »
As a long time OS/2 user and developer, I am curious about the perceived need to replace PM.  Exactly which benefits would follow from this?
i have the same question about WPS?
I think that we could benefit from some advanced native controls, but beyond that why should we replace that which has worked so well for so long?

Martin Iturbide

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2014, 07:14:40 pm »
Hi Mike

This was a long discussion that we have on other threads. There are people that says ""if it is not broken, don't fix it", but the reality is that PM is close source, IBM has the source code, they will not release it and we can not improve PM or fix bugs. PM is abandonware just like many components of the OS, the idea is to clone the OS to gain freedom, it is not a thing if it works or not. It is a strategic part to make OS/2 independent, IBM free and that can have a future for the platform.  Long history short, because it is abandonware, because it is IBM copyright, because we can not improve it, because this components does not allow the platform to grow and get more users.

Regards
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 07:19:00 pm by Martin Iturbide »
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Mike La Martina

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2014, 09:12:19 pm »
Hi Martin:
I was not thinking about that aspect of a replacement.  Retaining backward compatibility with PM would seem to me to be an enormous task.  As far as Qt is concerned, I would be interested if anyone could comment on the independence of the Qt Library from the native PM Apis.  I was under the impression that it used PM Apis.  I welcome correction if this view is erroneous.



Andi B.

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2014, 10:38:15 pm »
Sorry Martin, but as long as we do not even have manpower to fix things that are really broken, or make things happen currently not available (see your other wish lists) or compile open source stuff and bring them to a usable quality level, I don't want wast time on things that still work. And I definitely don't want to see Arca Noae to waste time on them. Give me video driver which do not hang system when playing video (fully SMP safe), wlan driver, shared mem fix, AOO without mem leak and sticky navigator window, killable java without window redraw problems, fix for sigfpe, up to date cmd window buffer, FAT32 with usable speed, VBOX, large floppy with USB devices, and and and.....

Your vision in replacing PM would need way more than all current available OS/2 developers even if you count that one which have the knowledge but decided to not support this platform anymore for various reasons. Visions are fine. But if they are so much above what can be handled in a realistic time frame they are counterproductive.

I know you don't want to hear this again so this will be my first and last post on this topic.

Doug Bissett

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2014, 11:17:55 pm »
Quote
Your vision in replacing PM would need way more than all current available OS/2 developers even if you count that one which have the knowledge but decided to not support this platform anymore for various reasons. Visions are fine. But if they are so much above what can be handled in a realistic time frame they are counterproductive.

I agree. When you have a row boat, and 100 people want to cross the river, it may be possible to get them across, two, or three, at a time. If a freight train comes along, and wants to cross the river, guess what will happen if you try it.

'Nuff said.

guzzi

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2014, 11:21:58 pm »
Quote
Your vision in replacing PM would need way more than all current available OS/2 developers even if you count that one which have the knowledge but decided to not support this platform anymore for various reasons. Visions are fine. But if they are so much above what can be handled in a realistic time frame they are counterproductive.

I agree. When you have a row boat, and 100 people want to cross the river, it may be possible to get them across, two, or three, at a time. If a freight train comes along, and wants to cross the river, guess what will happen if you try it.

'Nuff said.

If the 100 people are still around, just build a bridge to enable the freight train to cross. i do like Martins ideas. I just wish he had the 10 or so million dollars to make it happen to spare)

eirik

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2014, 09:53:06 am »
I think a step-by-step approach adding/fixing things users want is most imperative for the short run.  Some vision is needed for the longer run (run on modern hardware, able to use more of the memory on newer computers) as one of the strengths of OS/2 was its speed and versatility.  Having a long term vision is also helpful for short term work.

Given the size of the OS/2 - eCS community, it is extremely important that we use our scarce resources wisely = have clear priorities.

Eirik

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2014, 10:38:25 am »
Hi Martin:
I was not thinking about that aspect of a replacement.  Retaining backward compatibility with PM would seem to me to be an enormous task.  As far as Qt is concerned, I would be interested if anyone could comment on the independence of the Qt Library from the native PM Apis.  I was under the impression that it used PM Apis.  I welcome correction if this view is erroneous.

I went to http://trac.netlabs.org/qt4/wiki and viewed the README.OS2 file that describes a.o. how to compile the library in order to gain some understanding. And yes, the QT library is build on top of Presentation Manager.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2014, 03:43:13 pm »
That is not complete bad, Qt using PM can be a good example of showing us which should be the priority of the PM components to clone.
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Olafur Gunnlaugsson

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2014, 09:57:46 pm »
- PM is the OS/2 GUI
- WPS is the desktop shell. The objects that organize the GUI to create the desktop interpretation (based on a real's world desktop) of the OS. WPS requires SOM and PM to show itself as it is.

Yes, but you see, the PM is just a port of Visi/On, a quick and dirty solution to getting OS/2 v1.1 out of the house in a form resembling what they had promised their larger customers. As a graphics engine and GUI it was backwards even when released, never mind 2015, some 30 years later, and yes the Micrografx engine that is used in 2.x and higher helps but it is something of a kludge. API emulation, binary emulation or partial emulation is fine for getting older software to run, but recreating it is sheer madness.

The WPS and the original OS/2 2.0/CUA 91 metaphor is on the other hand pure genius and needs to be preserved if only in a vague work-alike, just look at MacOS X, they have been talking about a fully object oriented front end since they released the first NeXT in 1988 and still have not managed to tie together something resembling a coherent vision, or fully object oriented for that matter.

You should track down the old DOS demo presentation of CUA91 and watch it, that was what OS/2 2.x was meant to be, and we almost got it. The concept of non-modal software is something that we got in lots of early IBM software but then slowly disappeared as OS/2 software got more Windows like (or Linux like, since all Linux shells ape windows down to a tee). We are starting to see non-modal software concepts on mobile phones and tablets since it is a concept that makes sense, and is genuinely one less thing to worry about for an end user that is using a tool rather than what his/hers life centres around, but desktop software seems to be going backwards.

...... sheeeesh ........ ranting on the Internet ..... a sign of fast approaching old age I suppose

Dave Yeo

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Re: [Arca Noae] So, what would you like to see next?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2014, 02:45:34 am »
That is not complete bad, Qt using PM can be a good example of showing us which should be the priority of the PM components to clone.

I'd suggest running without the WPS for a bit to see how useless the Presentation Manager is without it. I don't know about QT but I'd guess a lot of functionality would vanish, it's like that for most programs. Even Mozilla uses the WPS to get its list of helper applications and if you want to drag'n'drop a URL etc.