Author Topic: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)  (Read 7793 times)

Martin Iturbide

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Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« on: December 21, 2014, 03:14:05 pm »
I was just reading Arca Noae's updated roadmap...

Quote
Graphical package management utility

A user-friendly interface for managing rpm packages (and eventually, WarpIn archives) is currently in beta testing (December, 2014). The goal of this application is to ease some of the burden of keeping OS/2 systems up to date. It will be compatible with software repositories beyond Arca Noae, bringing value to all OS/2 and eComStation users, and will be distributed free of charge under GPLv3. By adding support for WarpIn archives, we get closer to attaining a single point of managing software and driver updates.

This will be very interesting and I'm looking forward to see how it works.

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Martin Iturbide
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Mentore

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2014, 11:34:08 am »
I was just reading Arca Noae's updated roadmap...

Quote
Graphical package management utility

A user-friendly interface for managing rpm packages (and eventually, WarpIn archives) is currently in beta testing (December, 2014). The goal of this application is to ease some of the burden of keeping OS/2 systems up to date. It will be compatible with software repositories beyond Arca Noae, bringing value to all OS/2 and eComStation users, and will be distributed free of charge under GPLv3. By adding support for WarpIn archives, we get closer to attaining a single point of managing software and driver updates.

This will be very interesting and I'm looking forward to see how it works.

Regards

Quite interesting for me too. A "standard" installation interface would be a good add-on.

Mentore

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2015, 06:10:47 pm »
It also made me wonder if this "Graphical package management utility" can also be used to make "Recommendation #5 – Installed Apps Shortcuts" a reality:

http://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Comments_and_Suggestions_about_eComStation_User_Experience#Recommendation_.235_.E2.80.93_Installed_Apps_Shortcuts.

I'm not saying that my suggestion is a 100% right, but it can be interesting using the "Graphical package management utility" software to try to organize the shadows (shortcuts) of the OS/2 platform. My suggestion at that time was too focused on how Ubuntu organizes the "Programs Icons".

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Dave Yeo

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2015, 08:06:29 pm »
It also made me wonder if this "Graphical package management utility" can also be used to make "Recommendation #5 – Installed Apps Shortcuts" a reality:

http://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Comments_and_Suggestions_about_eComStation_User_Experience#Recommendation_.235_.E2.80.93_Installed_Apps_Shortcuts.

I'm not saying that my suggestion is a 100% right, but it can be interesting using the "Graphical package management utility" software to try to organize the shadows (shortcuts) of the OS/2 platform. My suggestion at that time was too focused on how Ubuntu organizes the "Programs Icons".



Currently the idea is just to allow graphically using the yum and warpin backends and interfacing the REXX and Python is harder then it first appears. Once version 1.x is released it might be worth making requests for extra features such as adding shortcuts. Of course with OS/2 users being much like cats, it may be better to just let people install their own shortcuts.

Doug Bissett

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2015, 10:32:34 pm »
Quote
It also made me wonder if this "Graphical package management utility" can also be used to make "Recommendation #5 – Installed Apps Shortcuts" a reality:

http://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/Comments_and_Suggestions_about_eComStation_User_Experience#Recommendation_.235_.E2.80.93_Installed_Apps_Shortcuts.

Your collection of "shortcuts" demonstrates one of the main reasons why I use eCS. Why would anybody even consider some of those things?

Anyway, as Dave said, eCS users are like cats, you never know what they want to do next (and you, Martin, are one of the prime examples of that).

It is very easy to do what you seem to want. There are more ways to do it than I care to think about and each user will want to do it in a different way. Use your imagination, and just do it.

I have seen the graphical package management utility (still in development, and a final name has not been finalized). It is going to make YUM usable, but it isn't going to do miracles (although making YUM usable is close). It will also integrate WarpIn, and YUM to one interface (both need to be properly installed), but it isn't going to do anything that those two programs don't do, and that probably includes fix problems when they screw up (that can also include a badly packaged package). I can say, that the weakest link in the whole thing is YUM, which I find not surprising. Unfortunately, that is outside of the control of Arca Noae, and they have to live with it, until somebody else fixes the problems with it (apparently, highly unlikely).

Be aware, that installing YUM on an old system, will probably break things. One of the current problems, is that LIBC066 is not, yet, available in YUM (unless it was added today).

Anyway, the program will be released, once the main problems are resolved, and users can evaluate what it does then, and make suggestions for improvement, or additions. Speculating on what it will, or won't, do, before seeing it, is pointless.

By the way, while working with that, I discovered that RPM/YUM has a major problem, if you do not remove the installer, using WarpIn (stated as being optional in the instructions). Removing the installer also removes what is known as the YUM console. The problem is, that if you continue to use the YUM console (seems like a logical thing to do), after doing the initial YUM install, it uses the temporary (and now ancient) YUM package that is used to do the initial install. That can (and does) cause serious problems. After you remove the install package (including the YUM console), you use the standard command line to run YUM, and it uses the updated code. The graphical package manager should not have the problem, unless a user tries to run it from the YUM console.

ivan

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2015, 12:18:08 am »
Err, Martin, if you look back to the days of Warp 4/WSeB I think you will find the structure you are talking about was standard in the programs folder - at least that is how all the OS/2 computers used here are setup.  Oh, and we can also get the Ubuntu style drop-down 'shortcuts' from the Warpcentre.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2015, 04:22:34 am »
My main issue to suggest this is that there is no documented standard on how eCS/Warp organizes the "Programs" folder. There is a un-documented standard for that folder that is "just drop things there without any order".  The "Programs" folder is a mess, and some might like it or not. I think that a basic structure needs to be defined for the OS, just to put some initial order on it, and after that any user can change it like they want to.

The basic undocumented procedure when a new application is installed is that it puts a directory on the desktop and populate it with icons. The user later see what to do with that. While Ubuntu does a very organized thing with the icons when installing software with the official package management.

The same thing with the "directory hierarchical structure", it is other mess, that IBM didn't even respected the order that tried to set. Nick Morrow was the only one that wrote something about it.

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Martin Iturbide
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guzzi

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2015, 05:14:36 am »
I think the cat analogy means os/2 users like to make their own mess. No matter how the vendor of the OS tries to 'organise' matters, we all do it our own way. Some clutter the desktop with a quazillion of objects, others have just one folder on it. os/2 is really easy in that respect and afak warpin can query where a on object is when it does an update so nothing changes place. IMHO this is completely not important. I just got extremely annoyed trying to find a picture on my win7 running netbook. I send it there with bluetooth from my phone, it was transferred to my phone from someone else's phone by bluetooth. I opened the folder on my netbook, it doesn't show small versions of the pics, you can only choose between large, medium, small icons which are pmview icons, not small versions of the pic. There is no easy way to sort on date. In the end I used FC/2win to find it. In all likelyhood I don't quite know how to use windows properly but every time I have to use it, I am glad my main pc uses eCS. Because in general it works the way I decide it should work, gives me the views I decide it should give. It's a very individual matter, and I think impossible to 'catch' in an installer. Just dump the stuff in the place were you want it, and if the installer will honour that with updates, that's as good as you can get it.  Just my opinion. I'm a lazy sod, and eCS comforts me because it's much less work to do what I want to do compared to other os's. The little bit of work involved in organising things on the desktop is irrelevant. With regards to the graphical package management utility (suggested names: installall, installit! or maybe ANSI (arca noae software installer), it should just makes things easier. Not a slight task, considering typing yum update is very easy indeed.

Dave Yeo

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2015, 05:44:37 am »
Hi Martin. You must be using a version of Ubuntu pre-Unity. It was pretty good when they used the Debian method of having a menu.lst which packages added themselves to when installed and most all desktop environments and window managers respected when creating a menu of programs, usually pretty well organized though if you didn't know about menu.lst it was not easy to change.
My latest Ubuntu install has Unity. 7 or 8 icons on the left of the screen designed as much for a touch screen as anything and only a very limited number of programs accessible. Firefox, 3 different Open Office ones, a crappy settings program (can't even setup the screensaver) the software centre which seems to be now focused on selling apps, and a means to access the file system. No other menu, no other simple way to access any of the other installed programs.
I had to navigate to /usr/bin and drag'n'drop an xterm on the desktop to get a command prompt and the stupid thing didn't even make a link but copied the program to the desktop.
Since my laptop had to old of a graphics card, meaning it was using LVM to compile the opengl stuff needed for the desktop effects, the effects that can't be turned off. I installed Fluxbox.  Fluxbox uses the right mouse button to bring up the program menu plus its own menu. No Firefox, no Open Office etc.
Bloody thing has gone so far down hill in trying to compete with Windows 8 for the most useless desktop environment that if it was easy, it would be gone and replaced with Mint or something that kept the old ways of doing things.
Sorry for the rant but it is things like this that makes OS/2 so nice to use. I much more prefer organizing things then letting some developers who think they know better then all the users change things in a horrible way.
Yumie or whatever it ends up called should just be a package manager, better then the command line for choosing packages to install, uninstall and upgrade though as Guzzi says, it's easy to use the command line for simple updates or even for installing something when you know exactly what you want to install.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 05:47:46 am by Dave Yeo »

Dave Yeo

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2015, 05:50:05 am »
I think the cat analogy means os/2 users like to make their own mess. No matter how the vendor of the OS tries to 'organise' matters, we all do it our own way.
I was thinking of the idiom of "herding cats" an almost impossible thing as cats are so independent and do things the way they want to do it.

Doug Bissett

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2015, 07:33:42 am »
Quote
My main issue to suggest this is that there is no documented standard on how eCS/Warp organizes the "Programs" folder. There is a un-documented standard for that folder that is "just drop things there without any order".  The "Programs" folder is a mess, and some might like it or not.

Of course there is no documented standard. The programs folder is user modifiable, to make it the way the user wants it. The default is to sort by name, with folders first. Adjust the display to change it (including using the location where the user happens to drop something). However, that is not the best way to do it.

I use three main methods. One, I put my main icons on the desktop. That includes the Programs, and Internet, folders. They are the master access to everything. I would put Internet into the Programs folder, but I use it enough to justify having it on the desktop.

The second tier are a few often used programs that I just drop into eCenter (XCenter). No, I do not use the Tray widget, there is a better way.

The better way? I create a folder  (I put it into the Utilities folder, but it can be anywhere), and put things into it that I want to use a lot (mostly shadows of programs). Then, i drop that folder into an eCenter (I have two of them). One click to open the folder (it expands), and one click to open whatever it is that I want to use (it can be a program, a file, or another folder in the first folder, which creates a sub menu).

Actually, there is a fourth method that I use. I use the Programs folder (sorted alphabetically, folders first), for things that i almost never use. That includes programs like QPDFView, which can be opened by simply clicking on a PDF file. There is rarely any need to open the program itself.

There are other ways, including using the Trays widget.

I try to follow two main rules (but they are only to guide myself). 1) Don't put anything on the desktop that doesn't make sense. 2) Keep it as simple as possible.

WarpIn was mentioned. If the installer is built properly, it will be able to find where the user put whatever it is, and update in place (even if the user moves it). Since the programmer has no idea where a user might want to put it, they should initially just put their work on the desktop, and let the user put it wherever they want it. Little effort is required to move something like the PMView folder off the desktop, and into an appropriate folder that the user chooses. The files, of course, need to go where they make sense. There are two default locations: Applications (bootdrive:\Programs by default, in eCS), and Tools (bootdrive:\Tools by default, in eCS). Neither one of them should be on a boot drive, it works a lot better if they are on a data/programs drive, and they can be shared between boot systems.

I could probably go on all night, but that should give you some ideas.

Jan-Erik Lärka

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2015, 01:58:27 pm »
I hope that the unified installer will contain a visual display of applications and libraries etc. that I can choose from.
The current YUM lack that as one has to know the name of a number of additions to install/update.

Andreas Schnellbacher

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2015, 08:51:53 pm »
I hope that the unified installer will contain a visual display of applications and libraries etc. that I can choose from.
It will.

Jan-Erik Lärka

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2015, 04:26:36 pm »
Hope that the different distribution channels with different behaviour will be brought together into one collection.

That we'll see a section with other not so obvious applications available on hobbes as well, with images and descriptions from the users perhaps?

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Graphical package management utility (Arca Noae)
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2015, 04:46:14 pm »
Hi.

I really hope we can collaborate to the repository that (I guess) is going to be hosted on Arca Noae. I'm looking forward to learn how to make rpm packages of some open source software that can be posted on that "somekind of application store" for the platform.  I guess that the idea will be to have some nice "Applicaton Store"?

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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