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Preview: eComStation 2.2 Beta, the legacy of OS/2 lives on

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Sigurd Fastenrath:

--- Quote from: guzzi on February 28, 2013, 12:26:32 am ---
--- Quote from: Sigurd Fastenrath on February 27, 2013, 08:02:40 pm ---Is that the announced "testing of a 'big' comupter magazine"?

- No WLAN support
No WLAN support? That's interesting. I've seen reports on the newsgroups from people using WLAN.....

-> True for Adapters build up to 2007/2008 - how many are still in use (not by OS/2 users - by 99% of users....)

- No bluetooth support
Indeed. Wonder how many users need it.

-> Scan old (very old) news groups articles.....

- No USB 3.0 support
No, and should be addressed.

- No ivP6 support
Not an issue for me, but that could be a showstopper for some, I think.

- No working suspense/resume support
Not true. It works on some hardware. So, limited support.

-> it is working on some (!) legacy hardware from before 2007 - but there still APM is the better choice (i.e. read Thorolfs experience at OS/ and I can show you about 50 messages from Mensys that "it is already close to work" (on legacy harware (!))

- still weak USB 2.0 support
Yes. But there has been a lot of progress.

-> but what does this help when it is not working reliable?

- Panorama is faster than before but still...
- it is still better to use APM instead of ACPi on older (legay hardware),
especially on Thinkpads up to "60
So? APM was the de facto standard when that hardware was made.

-> yes, thats what I try to say - since then ACPI is not working the same way on hardware since the "APM" age....

- The new icon set of - hopefully this can be changed in the
usual way :-(
Just some cosmetics. I've never cared about that.

-> Yes, useless to debate, but my experience (as like others) with some software is very poor and weak - and sometimes really dangerous like USB Widget, failing (like Temp widget) and so on....

This might sound very negative but I think it is better to tell people what is
possible and what not.

The old story: why not writing:

"eComStation works well, but only on selected hardware".

Yes. And most people who buy it know that and select their hardware accordingly

-> but that means to choose 7 to 8 year old Hardware -how long willl this be aorund?



--- End quote ---

With regards to support, I have had direct support from Mensys, to full satisfaction. I do agree that the response to tickets isn't always what it should be.

-> none of my entries in bugtrakcer over the last years (!) has ever been solved by mensys, most of them did not get even one answer.....

I am still a -lot- happer with ecs then with the win 7 that runs on my notebook. Whenever I need the thing windows will either complain about 'low memory', needing a reboot to prevent the system become unstable or just be incredibly slow because it's doing yet another huge set of updates.

-> well, as I am using modern hardware it is still the other way round for me - I am using my Samsung Tablett with Windows 8 for over one year now (before with Windows 7) and it runs more than perfect. But this is to the personal point of view. But telling eComStation can compete with Windows or Linux is just a bad sad joke.... And for Business things I am using Widnows for more than 30 years now, and never ever (with an own Windows Server Network) get any problems with it, I guess it is just about being lucky....
And for the updates: just disable the automatical update....

--- End quote ---


you've got some points, and these are issues those making and support services work on.  I use my T410 with eCS 2.1 at work.  Connection to the Windows network is faster on my eCS partition (through the NetDrive/Samba client), most of the stuff I work with on a daily basis goes faster on eCS than Win 7 (because I can tailor my work environment), ThunderBird and FireFox work the way they should, I have access to better editors, etc.  When there are serious data security issues, my Win using colleagues look a bit troubled.  I am not, and my eCS also works perfect vi-a-vi my bank.  Good to know I got a secure and safe system.

My employer (a university) deserves credit for documenting how to access servers etc., but they need to -- in a university environment you see many different uses and users. Fact is that the data and support services like that there are multiple systems on our network -- it makes them look for open solutions that adhere to international standards, not proprietary solutions that at some point could leave us all stranded and locked in.

Downside: no WiFi (yet), FnFx buttons do not work (so I cannot run presentations from my eCS partition), Java still not working appropriately, and no good terminal server access program.  But these problems are worked on in ways that will provide support also for newer systems on the market.  In 1-2 years my T410 is obsolete, and I will get a new computer.

In your case, the work environment appears less open (more Window'ized).  So, for you Win appears a better solution.  For me, not.  To conclude: different users have different needs.  If I were working with graphical design, I would probably use a Mac.  The fact that Win7 (and Win8) works for you is no valid reason to mock those making other choices.  People are not stupid -- they make the choices they think serve them best.

Have a thoughtful, yet positive day / Eirik

Sigurd Fastenrath:

--- Quote from: Eirik Romstad on February 28, 2013, 11:27:21 am ---The fact that Win7 (and Win8) works for you is no valid reason to mock those making other choices.  People are not stupid -- they make the choices they think serve them best.

Have a thoughtful, yet positive day / Eirik

--- End quote ---

Hi Eirik,

it is not my intention to mock people using different OS - may be a fault of my bad english - sorry if it sounds like this.
I am happy that your 410 is working for you, as others get the 500, 510 and 520 to run as well. I myself had a X200t really well supported - by trying to support it on my own with a lot of help of some really nice people, but Bugtracker - to be honest - did never help me.

I would not have published videos about eCs if I wanted to distract it.

But: would'nt it be nice to have WLAN and all the other missing things with your 410 supported? Would'nt it have been the much better choice to concentrate on selected hardware and support this (Suggestions about this have been made about a hundred times druing the last 8 years on, an dnot only there) instead of trying to cover everything?

That's my point: eCS development is still following the wrong path and even worse there seems to be the opinion there the result could compare with Major OS. That is simply not true. It is true for some users with some hardware, but here the attempt is to spread the OS and in that case in my opinion it is worng to tell people it could work out of the box with computer hardware, I guess that is the reason why the review mentioned: "on Legacy hardware".

By the way: My X200t was really well working with OS/2 Warp 4.52 (that I included the newest drivers with) while eCS 2.0 failed to install.

Even though - it is just my opinion. I do know that a lot of people do not like it, that is OK and thats it. I can only tell from my experince I had with "modern" hardware since 2007.

One other major fault in my opinion is the lack of a real Beta Test. You could say "why", my answer is:

- ECS 2.1 failed to copy AHCI driver
- ECS 2.0 failed to install Mousdriver (or it was the other way round)
- ECS RC 4 (or5) destroyed Layout of HDD
- ECS 2.1 German has bugs the English does not have (Peer not working and so on)
- all ECS Versions have been delayed, 2.2 is schedulded for April now, but I guess we have to wait if USB can be fixed till then....
I could tell and show you so many "never come true" informations and timetables about eComStation from "informed persons" but that would not change anything.

And I think it is my right to answer to other opinions like "eCS has some shortcomings but Windows is even worse" if my experince is totally different.

But you are right, I will from now on staying outside this discussions, the forums and everything else realted to ecomstation and leave it as it is.

Thanks Sigurd for a thoughtful response.

You bring up a very interesting point: the strategy choices for the development for eCS.  Here, I agree with you that a clear strategy choice has not been made, and that one can make a lot of damage to oneself by overselling (it works on all modern software when in reality it does not), and by not sticking to time tables.

On proper beta testing: with the small eCS community, it would be difficult to test all new computers.  Some of this is probably not even the fault of eCS but of computer producers who fail to document the hardware that make up their computers.  This is a problem not only for eCS -- Linux developers face many of the same problems.  As indicated by my previous posting, things work on my workplace because the computer and network department document things.  Hence, odd guys like me know which solutions to look for.

So, there have two challenges:

* Proper documentation by hardware producers
* A clear development strategy for eCS, followed by proper documentation on which hardware that works.  And then this documentation needs to be more detailed: several computer models come in multiple editions, and one needs to be clear on which edition = which hardwareWhen I buy new hardware, I try to get as exact info. as possible.  Drivers is a huge challenge.  The ongoing ACPI development will solve some of that, but not all as some computer producers neither adhere to standards nor document what's in their box.  PCI produces this documentation once you have bought a computer, but for most of us, that is a bit late.


Roderick Klein:
I guess I can answer most of the questions since I'm doing the work with the other tech guys to keep eCS on thie move.

When it comes to public beta's my experience is the following.  A public beta is needed of the product. But I can speak from practical experience the beta cycles don't really give that much feedback.
For some projects we have closed mailing lists and dedicated testers. When I started working for example on integrating Chris Wolgemuth his MMOS/2 classes into eCS I got little to no feedback from people asking to test MMOS/2. These where people even interested. Since it are all volunteers you won't hear me complain. But over the years my guess is most bugs are found by following a logical development path. You follow what is done to a program and then test it. If you make a change then you test that program.

Basically my conclusion is that with public beta's we get little to very little feedback and if we do get feedback in the form that something does not work we far from always get proper log files back to drill to the bottom of a bug.
I hope that partly answers the questions about public beta's. So we will do a public beta of 2.2. Infact tomorow morning I will call David Azarwitz early in the morning his time and do some debug on a system with USB problems. But this requires time using the kernel debugger and him logging in via VNC to find the problem.

Roderick Klein
Mensys B.V.


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