Author Topic: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae  (Read 12030 times)

Dave Yeo

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2015, 04:42:11 am »
Quote
The answer would be for more programmers to step up, and work on important stuff like WiFi, and USB 3.0. It always bothers me that some are spending time making games work, when the basic system is approaching a wall. The games aren't going to be much good if there is no OS capable of running them.

Problem is that not all programmers are equal and usually have various niches that they understand and are good at. Someone might be good at making games work but be absolutely crappy at device drivers. At that device drivers are probably one of the hardest types of programming with only a small percentage of programmers being capable. This gets even worse when the first step is reverse-engineering a device due to lack of specs or even worse, wrong specs. USB is a good example. IBM wrote our drivers following the specs. Everyone else made their USB devices to conform with what MS wanted. So there were the official specs and the secret specs from MS designed to lock people into using Windows.
There's also the fact that volunteers usually do what they find interesting or to scratch a personal itch.

Andi B.

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2015, 09:19:56 am »
Regarding Mulitmac - I regularly built Multimac for myself from the beginning as an open source project at netlabs. But since about 1 year ago or so it can't be build out of the box from the repository. You need an additional Mini-DDK which the developer didn't want to gave me although I asked in the most polite form I'm able to do in English. Reason why he did not sent it was 'there are major changes going on with the code and the current state is not good enough to share but it will be in some weeks or so' (recalled from memory). Since then I lost interest in compiling it by myself and devoted my spare time to other projects. At that time the official released versions worked okay for me so no need to digging in further.

New versions of Multimac where released since then. No clue if the Mini-DDK is now free to download or not. Mulitmac is not so important for me anymore as I bought additional PCIe NICs with Intel chips for some reasons. I lost interest in compiling Multimac by myself and searching for the flaws in the Realtek code I discovered with two of my machines. 

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2015, 10:10:51 am »
Despite some well founded skeptical comments, I think that Martin's suggestion makes a lot of sense.  While not perfect, it makes it a lot easier for people to acquire hardware that works.  In my case (professor in economics using eCS because of the possibilities the WPS provides to create a working environment that makes me more productive), I am not a customer who buys parts and assemble them.  Instead, I am looking for a package that works.  My Lenovo Thinkpad is 85% (wireless and hooking up to projectors are my main issues - my old T43 was 100%) works well enough that I stay with eCS.  Now, the T410 is soon 5 years old, and it is time to buy a new PC.  And imagine the effect if 250 economics students see a PC that is not WINx :-)

I do not know how many other eCS users who are like me (= buys canned hardware), but I think we constitute market segment that is important as it spreads eCS beyond sophisticated users.  eCS needs to reach out to a wider audience if it is to survive as something else than an anomaly.

By the way, my next computer looks to be a T440s or T450s (well aware they come in many versions - despite being a computer illiterate unlike many of you, I am able to read computer specs) as I like the feel and sturdiness of the T-series.

Hi Eirik,

I would suggest to take a look a the Sony Vaio Pro 13. My last experience with the Lenovo hardware is:

X230T - no wirless (no chance to change BIOS so far), no sound -> but LAN, Graphics and USB 2.0 working, as well as Touch and Pen! USB 3.0 unusable -> may be a good choice for you, but already some years old

Helix second Generation - no installation of OS/2 possible -> BIOS is UEFI ONLY -> no legacy/compatibility mode

The Sony Vaio Pro 13 (please take a look at my videos if you like) is one of the latest Laptops that will work, I would guess. No WLAN and no Sound here as well (like X230T), BUT

- very (very!!) thin and light (carbon)
- very fast (m2.SSD 256GB, i7, 8GB RAM)!
- Touch works (for me this is really usable because the Touchpad is not supported with OS/2)
- USB 3.0 only, but those are working with OS/2 as 2.0 as this Laptop has a Fallback controller!
- Compatibility mode in BIOS!
- I am using four operating system with it (using Airboot):
1. Enhanced OS/ Warp Version 4 (not eComstation)
2. Windows 7 Pro
3. Windows 8.1 Pro
4. Linux Mint 17 Cinnamon

-> I install using Cloning with DFSEE - do not know if eCS 2.2b2 can be installed using DVD

I will be at Warpstock Europe (only on Saturday) and will bring the Sony Vaio Pro 13 and the Samsung Serie 7 Slate PC with me.





« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 10:18:06 am by Sigurd Fastenrath »

Eirik Romstad

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2015, 11:53:24 am »
@Sigurd,

thanks for encouraging comments on out of the box hardware that works on large parts.  Was a bit discouraged by Doug in response to my first posting on this issue on the newer T-series.  On my current T410 I also use AirBoot (dual boot with Win7Pro), and it works like a charm.

For customers like me (laptop on travel, presentations etc.) modern hardware is actually quite important.  Our list of benefits of modern hardware: weighs less, commutes with peripherals, longer battery life, etc, are pretty similar.  I will look into the Sony whom a friend has, and this machine also has a feel similar to the modern T-series.  Most likely, a new computer is acquired by the summer.  With AirBoot working, and most eCS features working, eCS is not dead in my case (or as you have argued for a long time enhanced Warp)

As I have argued before, expanding the customer base is important for the development, and hence survival, of eCS/OS2.  I am not able to make it for WapStock as I have a work related conference I must attend.  Thanks again for semi-good news :-)

Eirik

Sigurd Fastenrath

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2015, 03:37:22 pm »
Eirik,

sorry, forgot to mention one very important thing - that will make the Sony Vaio a NoGo for you I guess - there is no internal LAN Port, it is just to thin. There is a WLAN Router included that can be attached to the Powersupply via USB, in the Router a LAN Cable can be plugged in, but because of having no WLAN support with the Intel WLAN you can not connect to LAN nor Internet  :-\

Hopefully Arca Noae will get the Multimac some time to run with Intel WLAN chipset.


Doug Bissett

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2015, 05:35:09 pm »
Quote
Problem is that not all programmers are equal and usually have various niches that they understand and are good at

True, but somebody who actually has some knowledge of programming has a better chance of being able to help out on some of the important projects. They could still work on what interests them too.

Quote
You need an additional Mini-DDK which the developer didn't want to gave me although I asked in the most polite form I'm able to do in English.

That is what I was missing. When I went looking for it, I think I found that it was only available from IBM in some package that is no longer available (for a number of years). Those who already have it can use it. Those who don't need to find another way to do whatever it does. To give somebody else a copy would break the license. Whether IBM would care, or not, is anybodies guess. I don't think I would want to be the one to find out.

Okay Martin, here is a another project for you (or somebody else). Go and find as many programming support packages as possible, get the license opened up, and make them available to the community. A lot of that stuff is on the old developer CDs, but it needs to have the okay from IBM to distribute it. You seem to have a contact in IBM that can do things like that. More modern packages are already available.

Quote
thanks for encouraging comments on out of the box hardware that works on large parts.  Was a bit discouraged by Doug in response to my first posting on this issue on the newer T-series.  On my current T410 I also use AirBoot (dual boot with Win7Pro), and it works like a charm.

I have had only one machine where Air-Boot (1.1.0) doesn't work (and I haven't spent any time trying to figure it out). I don't want to discourage you, but I see no evidence of any USB controllers that will (currently) work with eCS, in your chosen machines. My T510 (very similar to the T410) has only USB 2.0 controllers and no USB 1.x controllers. It needs the USB 2.0 driver to work. The T440s and T450s only list USB 3.0, and no USB 2.0, or USB 1.x, controllers. I conclude that they need the USB 3.0 driver to work. My L530 has three USB 2.0 ports plus a USB 3.0 port. The USB 3.0 port connects a USB 2.0 device to the USB 2.0 controller, so that works. If I plug in a USB 3.0 device, it gets connected to the USB 3.0 controller, which has no driver, so it doesn't work. If I plug a USB 3.0 device into a USB 2.0 controller, it operates in USB 2.0 mode (as it should).

Quote
Hopefully Arca Noae will get the Multimac some time to run with Intel WLAN chipset.

Apparently we now have two situations where new drivers are essential, to be able to use new hardware. The guy who is going to do those drivers is preoccupied with USB 2.0 and the older Multimac, and I don't know how much time he can spend on the two new projects, or even if he is actually working on either one. We needed both years ago. Now, it seems that UEFI is going to be the next big problem.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2015, 09:04:01 pm »
Hi Doug

Quote
Okay Martin, here is a another project for you (or somebody else). Go and find as many programming support packages as possible, get the license opened up, and make them available to the community. A lot of that stuff is on the old developer CDs, but it needs to have the okay from IBM to distribute it. You seem to have a contact in IBM that can do things like that. More modern packages are already available.

I had already did what I can with EDM/2 to document as much programming packaged as possible and open source the things that was able to find. I don't have the kind of contacts on IBM that I will like to to make software open source and freeware. I just got the luck to find the procedure to request the reposting of IBM documentation.

I heared about that "Mini DDK" but I have got a documented source about it. Please anybody give me feedback about it to publish information about it on the EDM/2.

regards
Martin Iturbide
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Roderick Klein

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2015, 11:49:06 pm »
Well when it comes to the FreeBSD based Multimac NIC drivers Arca Noae seems to be moving forward:
http://www.arcanoae.com/new-multimac-driver-package-20150529-released/

A list of supported NIC chipsets can be found here:
https://www.arcanoae.com/wiki/multimac/

Roderick Klein
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« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 12:16:05 am by Roderick Klein »

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2015, 06:33:51 pm »
Hi

Just talking about the side discussion, maybe the latest version of Multimac source code is not building for you because you are missing Drv16 and Drv32 libraries. This are libraries made by David Azarewicz using IBM DDK. Can you check on that?

I still do know what is MiniDDK, who made it or any documentation. I can only guess that is a cropped or updated version of IBM DDK. (Maybe I'm wrong).  This David's libraries has a reference to MiniDDK:

Quote
Requirements
------------

1. The latest MiniDDK (preferred) or an updated DDK. If you get compile
   warnings or errors using the DDK, then your DDK is not up-to-date.

   The MiniDDK contains no source code, and has been rearranged so that
   all header files are in base/h or base32/h, all include files are in
   base/inc or base32/inc, and all libraries are in base/lib or base32/lib.

   The supplied makefiles assume the layout of the MiniDDK, so some changes
   may be required to your DDK, or to the makefiles of your project so that
   the appropriate files can be found.

More information about MiniDDK is welcome.

Regards
Martin Iturbide
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Roderick Klein

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2015, 09:06:27 am »
A quick read on http://trac.netlabs.org/multimac#Building reveals:

" The MiniDDK (preferred) or an updated full DDK. You need an IBM DDK license for the DDK or the MiniDDK. If you get build errors or warnings using the full DDK, then your DDK is not up-to-date. If you have a DDK license, you can contact David if you need the MiniDDK. "

Roderick

Dave Yeo

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2015, 11:40:04 pm »
Wonder how they consider someone having a DDK licence? Personally I have a good chunk of it that I  downloaded way back but am missing the network stuff. Can't remember any agreements when I downloaded it but it seems the DDK was basically freely available.

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2015, 04:11:37 am »
Hi Dave

The DDK was not freeware. It is by now discontinued software. The IBM DDK has a very awful license that does not allow for the source code to be distributed in a public matter, so it is not open source friendly and can not be combined with GNU GPL for example.

The IBM DDK has 1.- IBM Code, 2.- Tools and Lib Code, 3.- Documentation (OnLine Written Materials). I was able to override the "3.- Documentation (OnLine Written Materials)" by requesting IBM copyright permission to republish this documentation on the EDM/2 wiki.

But the "1.- IBM Code" says
Quote
In addition, IBM grants to you the non-exclusive, non-assignable, non-transferable right, under the applicable IBM copyrights, to reproduce and distribute, in object code form only,...
That kills any open source compatibility. But at least anybody can compile some drivers like screen01.sys, print01.sys, etc and release it as freeware for any use. (like some drivers used to be).

"2.- Tools and Lib Code" it is like any other commercial software, you can not reproduce it, reverse assemble or reverse compile, etc, etc.

I invite you to read: http://www.os2world.com/wiki/index.php/IBM_OS/2_Products_Licensing_Analysis#IBM_OS.2F2_Developer_Toolkit

Sadly the source code of IBM DDK was not like other source code that IBM included on SOMobjects Developer Toolkit or VisualAge products, on which you can do "almost" whatever you want with the source code while you maintained the "IBM Copyright" as the original source, some kind similar to some BSD licenses.

Regards

Regards
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 04:18:09 am by Martin Iturbide »
Martin Iturbide
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Dave Yeo

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2015, 07:03:28 am »
Most of the DDK files here are copyright 1992 and while some do say
Quote
The following IBM OS/2 source code is provided to you solely for
the purpose of assisting you in your development of OS/2 device
drivers. You may use this code in accordance with the IBM License
Agreement provided in the IBM Developer Connection Device Driver
Source Kit for OS/2. This Copyright statement may not be removed.
Which I take it is the copyright you reference. quite a few are
Quote
COPYRIGHT IBM CORPORATION, 1991, 1992
LICENSED MATERIAL - PROGRAM PROPERTY OF IBM
REFER TO COPYRIGHT INSTRUCTION FORM#G120-2083
RESTRICTED MATERIALS OF IBM
IBM CONFIDENTIAL

VERSION = V2.0
Some documentation has
Quote
COPYRIGHT LICENSE: This publication contains printed sample application programs in source language, which illustrate OS/2 programming techniques. You may copy, modify, and distribute these sample programs in any form without payment to IBM, for the purposes of developing, using, marketing or distributing application programs conforming to the OS/2 application programming interface.

Each copy of any portion of these sample programs or any derivative work, which is distributed to others, must include a copyright notice as follows: "(C) (your company name) (year). All rights reserved."

(C) Copyright International Business Machines Corporation 1996. All rights reserved.
Quickly Googling, I can't find the form.
Thinking about it, I did register as a developer at one time which may have been why I had access.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2015, 07:05:17 am by Dave Yeo »

Martin Iturbide

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2015, 06:55:03 pm »
Hi Dave.

If there is an older (pre 2004) DDK that were packaged under a license that is more "distribution/open source" friendly, it will mean that we can share the old version of the source code. But I we really need to see the whole package in context to be sure about it.

There is also the issue that they put a "light/good license" on a single driver inside the txt source code, but they package the whole things under a restrictive license. We need to be careful about that too.

There is this phrase that says "You may use this code in accordance with the IBM License Agreement provided in the IBM Developer Connection Device Driver Source Kit for OS/2. This Copyright statement may not be removed." For what I checked The IBM Developer Connection Release 2 Program license is very similar to the IBM DDK (bad for open source), but if there was an older one without that restrictions, according to the text, maybe the source code can be shared.

I will like to invite everybody that has an older IBM DDK (or OS/2 drivers source code) that are PRE-2004 to contact me to "martiniturbide@gmail.com" to review the licensing terms of it.



Regards.

Martin

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Jim

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Re: Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2015, 02:34:57 am »
I am a newbie to this forum, so please forgive my errors. Not a newbie to OS/2, having first started with it with version 2, but haven't used it in a long time.
This observation is very self centered, as it involves what I want to do.
I want to find a laptop that will work with eCs 1.
I do have an old Toshiba (Satellite M35X-S161) but it gets a can't operate this drive which as I remember means I don't have the correct driver. Appreciate any help on this.
As to the question at hand.  It would seem you could get everyone on "O/S2 World" to list what they have and drivers that work.
If they have a Toshiba Satellite XXXX-XXXX state that and what works and what doesn't.
If they have a desktop they same.
If they have a custom desktop. what parts work and what don't.
If they are using a virtual machine then what type and what are the settings.
I know it is a big job if you look at the end of the job it seems gigantic, but if we look at just one at time it will grow.
Last time I looked at the HCL there were only two laptops, I can't believe those are the only ones. I don't know if the HCL is modifiable then it should be. Have someone knowledgeable check them and lock them.
Please excuse me if I stepped on any toes or broke any rules.