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Supported Device List Suggestion for Arca Noae

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Doug Bissett:

--- Quote ---On this case I'm only suggesting to have like two of each one, so it can be very pinpointed and limited to specific devices that are available with a well define chipset.
--- End quote ---

I doubt if that would work. It seems that the same device gets different names, and PCI IDs, depending on where it is sold. So you can say that devices X, and Y, are "supported", but if it is sold as device Z, in your region, what do you do? The other big problem, is that motherboards come with devices, that the user has no choice about (in most cases). Recently, I got an Asus A88XM-A motherboard. The specs looked like it might work, but the wired NIC is a "Found Realtek NIC at bus 3:0:0: 10EC:8168 version 39 (RTL8168g/8111g)". Multimac loads, and it works at 100 Mbs (should be 1 Gbs) for a short period, then it just stops. As the information shows, it is version 39 of the SAME device, and it obviously requires something different.

When I got my Lenovo ThinkPad L530, I had a choice of three WiFi adapters. I don't remember the details, but one was a Realtek (called a "Lenovo device" so it could easily be replaced by something else entirely, with no way for the user to get it changed), and the other two were Intel. I chose the more basic Intel device, hoping that GENMAC would support it until Multimac did. In fact GENMAC does operate the device, BUT, there is no way to turn the radio on (apparently, the more advanced Intel has the same problem), so it works exactly like a wired NIC, with no cable connected. I expect that Multimac will support it, when the driver is done, but I can only hope, until I see it work. Actually, there is another choice. I could get a device that is currently supported by GENMAC, and modify the BIOS (invalidating the warranty) so that it will allow it to be used. Even then, I am not confident that I would be able to get the radio turned on, since that now seems to be a function of ACPI.


--- Quote ---Even with a disclaimer that says "AS IS" without warranty that it will work
--- End quote ---

That is a required statement, for anything that gets done. Without it, the programmer is wide open to law suits, and the problem may not even be caused by the program. They may need to prove (at great expense) that it wasn't their fault, and that may be impossible. Unfortunately, such a statement makes any indication that something will work, useless, because it may not work.

Eirik Romstad:
Despite some well founded skeptical comments, I think that Martin's suggestion makes a lot of sense.  While not perfect, it makes it a lot easier for people to acquire hardware that works.  In my case (professor in economics using eCS because of the possibilities the WPS provides to create a working environment that makes me more productive), I am not a customer who buys parts and assemble them.  Instead, I am looking for a package that works.  My Lenovo Thinkpad is 85% (wireless and hooking up to projectors are my main issues - my old T43 was 100%) works well enough that I stay with eCS.  Now, the T410 is soon 5 years old, and it is time to buy a new PC.  And imagine the effect if 250 economics students see a PC that is not WINx :-)

I do not know how many other eCS users who are like me (= buys canned hardware), but I think we constitute market segment that is important as it spreads eCS beyond sophisticated users.  eCS needs to reach out to a wider audience if it is to survive as something else than an anomaly.

By the way, my next computer looks to be a T440s or T450s (well aware they come in many versions - despite being a computer illiterate unlike many of you, I am able to read computer specs) as I like the feel and sturdiness of the T-series.

Dave Yeo:

--- Quote ---The specs looked like it might work, but the wired NIC is a "Found Realtek NIC at bus 3:0:0: 10EC:8168 version 39 (RTL8168g/8111g)". Multimac loads, and it works at 100 Mbs (should be 1 Gbs) for a short period, then it just stops. As the information shows, it is version 39 of the SAME device, and it obviously requires something different.
--- End quote ---

It can get even weirder. I have a 82566DM-2 Gigabit Network Connection built into my MB. On a totally cold boot, as in after a power outage or pulling the plug, it receives but doesn't transmit on my eCS 2.1 (and 2.2.b2) partition. If I instead boot to my Warp V4 partition, it works fine and I can then boot to my eCS partition and it continues to work for a few days of uptime, indefinitely if i regularly reboot including powering off (still plugged in). When it eventually screws up, a quick boot to warp v4 fixes it again.
This card is on the supported list for the Intel PRO/1000 PCIe MAC driver from Arca Noae.

Doug Bissett:

--- Quote ---Despite some well founded skeptical comments, I think that Martin's suggestion makes a lot of sense.
--- End quote ---

It does, up to a point. You mention getting a Lenovo T440s, or T450s. Looking at the specs, I see some potential problems, and there will be no way around them until somebody finds a way to do it. The most serious is that they apparently have USB 3.0, and not USB 2.0, or 1.x. That means that there will be no USB support until the USB 3.0 driver is ready to go. Windows (and Linux) will support USB 2.0 and 1.x devices in the same way that the T410 supports USB 1.x, by using a built in hub to convert the connection to USB 3.0, but you will need a USB 3.0 driver to make it work. I am not even sure that it will work in a virtual machine, since the virtual machine needs the USB driver for the devices. I suspect that most laptops (and many desktops) are going to have the same problem (and it looks like there will be other problems with your selections).


--- Quote ---Now, the T410 is soon 5 years old, and it is time to buy a new PC.
--- End quote ---

Age is a poor reason to update computer hardware, in most cases. If you have something that is doing the job, with few problems, you may be better off to stay with it. It has been my experience that it can take significant work to make newer hardware work. I got a Lenovo L530, because my T510 worked well, and the specs were somewhat similar. It took more than a year to sort out some basic problems, but by year 2, it was working pretty well. WiFi is still a no go on both the T510, and the L530 (still waiting for Multimac). Audio is also a no go on the L530, and it is about 3 years old now.

So what do we do about things like that? Arca Noae (like Mensys) can't afford to buy one of every machine that is on the market, and even if they could, there aren't enough people to do the testing, or problem analysis (never mind write the drivers). So, somebody needs to select a few that are most likely to work, with minimal new stuff required. Okay, do those ones go on the list, or do they wait until the "important" drivers work (which may take months)? If they wait, the devices may no longer be available by the time they get on the list. If they are on the list, before the drivers are written, who will take responsibility if the drivers never get written, for one reason or another? Currently, the best source of information is from those system builders who have the opportunity to test various machines as they pass though their shops. If they won't work with eCS, they can usually sell them with windows, or Linux, installed.


--- Quote ---I do not know how many other eCS users who are like me (= buys canned hardware)
--- End quote ---

I think that more users would buy "canned hardware" if they could determine exactly what the manufacturers put into it. Unfortunately, they sometimes change the hardware part way through a production run, so you may get one machine that works, then try to get the same machine, and it won't. At least if you build your own, you generally have a better idea of what you will end up with. Laptops become a special case, because you can't always select what you want to end up with, and in most cases, you can't even change what you get.


--- Quote ---eCS needs to reach out to a wider audience if it is to survive as something else than an anomaly.
--- End quote ---

Very true. Unfortunately, if you start making lists of what is supported (and those lists will be out of date by the time they are published), you further restrict the audience. That is further complicated when the list only states what does work, and not what has been tested, with the test results. It also doesn't mean the untested devices won't work. Then, you run into the problem where a user gets a device, and can't make it work because they don't understand how to do it. If they, incorrectly, report that it doesn't work, others who do know how to approach those problems may not try it.

I suppose that a list might have limited use, but it must have a way for users to update what is posted, after the device status changes (that is the main problem with the Russian hardware pages). It also shouldn't be tied to Arca Noae, because they don't do everything. OS2 world might be an appropriate place to host such a thing, but it will probably prove to be a huge project. Others have tried it, and the lists became so large, and out of date, that they were just abandoned as being unusable. You have the other problem of data security (hackers messing it up) and being able to let users do legitimate updates, as well.

One thing that we do NOT want to do, is put more work on the backs of those who are writing drivers. They have enough to do without adding more.

Andi B.:
As stated a few times it seems impossible to have a list of 'supported' hardware. But sometimes I think it would be even helpful to have a list which hardware 'uses' which developer by himself. No support guarantee but information what uses which developer. Similar lists existed in the past although with limited success. See hardware list at ecomstation.ru. OTOH not every OS/2 user knows that f.i. Intel does have open access to hardware documentation which Nvidia do prohibit. Or that very often new Intel devices are compatible with older types where f.i. with Realtek not even the same device ID is guaranteed to work. Lot of users do not know that f.i. Asrock is the low cost line of Asus and so you may find undocumented changes of chips more often than with the higher priced boards targeted for industrial applications. User may not know that f.i. MSI usually pays more attention to produce compatible motherboards with 'legacy' hardware and correct BIOS code than some other companies. Lot of users do not know that Nvidia graphic chips fails much more often after a few years than Intel or ATI chips beside there closed documentation which makes it impossible or at least much harder to get it running with a non mainstream OS.

I for myself have posted here and at other places which hardware I use and what does work or not. But a database of working devices would be better than searching forums. Unfortunately the databases we have are not maintained anymore (ecomstation.ru) AND users did not provide enough input for such databases in the past. So why should the few already overstressed and mostly spare time developers do it?

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