OS2 World Community Forum

OS/2, eCS & ArcaOS - Technical => Setup & Installation => Topic started by: Andrew Stephenson on November 24, 2023, 04:09:13 pm

Title: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Andrew Stephenson on November 24, 2023, 04:09:13 pm
Reading back through the posts on this topic, I think my query only half-belongs here.  But let's find out...

XXX (an AN UK agent, name coded for his security) was kind enough to sell me a Lenovo M900 m/c along with my Personal Edition of AOS-5.1, which he also installed, all at a low price.  That was a big help.  Now he has flitted off to Warpstock and a USian holiday (hmm, I suppose that'd be "vacation" Over There  :)), so I am on my own.

I was getting along fine with transferring material saved from my dead (NB) eCS-2 setup when bugs began to appear.  Encarta94 transferred to the Win-3.1 session and seemed to run fine.  But my DOS software, on which I very much rely, did not.  Two apps in particular: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS"); and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP").

WS would get as far as its sign-on screen, then freeze; and only a ctl+alt+del with 'R' would break me free.  QP (coincidentally (?) after I ticked the box in "System Setup > Icon Size > Use Custom Icons", discussed in another topic) began by running right, like opening *.WQ1 spreadsheet files properly, then went berserk when I tried flipping through its Properties.  On the "Icon" page, AOS got as far as drawing the page and was about to draw the icon (already displayed right in (eg) directory displays) then froze solid.  Again, only ctl+alt+del would break me loose -- then, after two or three such collapses, even rebooting failed: now, we get to the AN logo on a black background... then the m/c runs and runs and runs, going nowhere.  I left it for over an hour and a half, without joy.

So here is Big Question #1.  I cannot access any logs, by the looks of it, and probably must reinstall.  XXX told me that he had issues with getting DOS and Win-3.1 sessions right; maybe I can use the CONFIG.SYS (and AUTOEXEC.BAT?) that I backed up before the Collapse.  But do these symptoms ring any bells?

Now for Big (BIGGER?) Question #2.  I really rely on WS and QP (see above).  I have a lot of work saved in their formats.  Do I stick with them and wrestle these bugs to the ground?  Or are there solid AOS-friendly apps I can switch to?  I know WS's format quite well; it's the app itself I really like.  Reputedly QP was, er, inspired by Lotus Smartsuite 1-2-3 -- to get the marketing joke, try counting "1-2-3-4" in Spanish) -- with QP's "WQ1" apparently being similar to LS's "WK1".  Only, I never checked.

Anybody feeling inspired?  Please?
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Pete on November 24, 2023, 05:04:52 pm
Hi Andrew

To try to ascertain where the boot gets stuck: During boot press Alt-F2 when the "OS/2" appears in top left corner of screen. This should show drivers loading and either the driver displayed or the next driver that should load is the likely cause of boot failure.

Having established where boot stops Boot the install media to the Installer gui and select System Management(? think that is what it is called) instead of starting a fresh install. You can then use Text Editor to open old and new config.sys files to compare and adjust as necessary.


Regards

Pete


Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on November 24, 2023, 09:36:55 pm
If you have ArcaOS 5.1, then you still have a software subscription. Go to the Arca Noae website, and open an support incident. Read the Wiki (the link is on the page to file a support incident. Someone will help you through.

If you were not under paid support, I'd be in favor of trying to solve the problem here.
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 24, 2023, 10:51:53 pm
Hello Andrew

I split your topic on the forum so we can focus on your issue with WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP") under the DOS VDM session.

Regards
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: ivan on November 24, 2023, 11:04:01 pm
Hi Andrew,

A little more info please.  Are you trying to use the DOS programs in a full DOS screen or a DOS window?  I ask because I remember from years ago that there were problems using DOS programs in a window but they were OK when used full screen, what you describe sounds very like that.
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 24, 2023, 11:13:26 pm
Hello Andrew.

Now for Big (BIGGER?) Question #2.  I really rely on WS and QP (see above).  I have a lot of work saved in their formats.  Do I stick with them and wrestle these bugs to the ground?  Or are there solid AOS-friendly apps I can switch to?  I know WS's format quite well; it's the app itself I really like.  Reputedly QP was, er, inspired by Lotus Smartsuite 1-2-3 -- to get the marketing joke, try counting "1-2-3-4" in Spanish) -- with QP's "WQ1" apparently being similar to LS's "WK1".  Only, I never checked.

On this subject I can easily say, replace WordStar for OpenOffice Writer and replace Quattro Pro for OpenOffice Calc, we have OpenOffice for ArcaOS (https://www.bitwiseworks.com/shop/index.php?id_product=33&controller=product&id_lang=1).  But it is not that easy, it is not fair for me to just say migrate to that software without knowing your background, the quantity of work you have on that old software, and your skills to learn OpenOffice.

Maybe you can get first OpenOffice and start playing with Writer and Calc to learn more about those. And only if you get used on that way of working, we can see the migration path from an old WordStar and QuattroPro file to the OpenOffice format. Migration may also not be perfect.

Regards

Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Pete on November 25, 2023, 07:02:32 am
Hi Andrew

Not sure which bit may be confusing you...

As you do not seem to be able to boot the system "... we get to the AN logo on a black background... then the m/c runs and runs and runs, going nowhere.  I left it for over an hour and a half, without joy." my suggestion is to discover where config.sys "barfs" during boot. This can be done by pressing keys ALT-F2 when OS/2 is displayed at top left of screen - almost immediately after boot starts. This should display drivers loading and will indicate which driver is not loading.

Then you probably need to be able to boot from something - I suggested install media - in order to edit config.sys and resolve non-boot problem.

Come to think of it: If you are running UEFI boot instead of booting install media you can, once you have established what the boot problem is, press ALT-F1 when OS/2 is displayed at top left of screen. This should display a Recovery Menu which includes the option to edit config.sys for this boot. Hopefully that will resolve the non-boot problem.


Regards

Pete




Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 25, 2023, 02:03:10 pm
Hello

I was reading about WordStar.
- Migration:
If the goal to is to migrate to a modern word processor, for what I had read online, it seems that people suggest to save the WS file as RTF, so it can be opened on OpenOffice Writer. Some other recommend the "WordStar (for DOS) converter for Word (http://www.gmayor.com/Zips/Wrdstr32.zip)" and from there OpenOffice can open the word format.

- Testing The Software:
I tried WordStar 7c for DOS in ArcaOS 5.1, it runs but I get an error that a file is missing, while the file is there on the folder. Maybe it is some copy protection. 

But I also tried WordStar 2.0 for Windows (Newer than 7c according Wikipedia). It seems to runs fine on Win-OS/2, but what needs to be test is that it can open the WS files created with the DOS version. I remember that on those times, even if the software is called the same and created by the same company, sometime the file were not compatible between different OSes.

Regards
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 25, 2023, 02:24:32 pm
Hello

I was also trying Quattro Pro. With a little trick, I was able to run Quattro Pro 6 in WinOS2. It installs fine, but it copies some DLLs to C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM, and in Win-OS2 we need to move those files to C:\OS2\MDOS\WINOS2\SYSTEM.

It seems to be able to save the Quattro Pro files to XLS, which will be good to migrate to OpenOffice Calc eventually. But again, depending on the complexity of the spreedsheet, migration will not be perfect, some calculation may break.

Andrew, I hope this can give you some ideas of the path you want to choose.

Regards
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Doug Bissett on November 25, 2023, 06:30:33 pm
Looking back, I see that you said it is a Lenovo n900 computer. Which one? There are a lot of different models of m900.

Then, is it installed using Legacy support (in the BIOS), or in UEFI mode (without the CSM)? If it is not UEFI, without the CSM, you do not have the new DOS/WIN support that UEFI supplies, and the old CSM is likely not capable of running your DOS/WIN programs. The symptoms, that you describe, would seem to be what happens, when trying to run DOS/WIN programs with a broken CSM (most of them are broken, in machines less than about 15 years old).

Quote
(or maybe using Alt+F2 did it) because the system booted up normally.

That is an indication that you need to properly sort your CONFIG.SYS. Look up LCSS (Logical Config.Sys Sort) at HOBBES. It may not help, but it usually does, when Alt-F2 helps. They both change the load timing, which often causes trouble. The other option, is to put a file, named Alt-F2on.$$$ into the root of the boot drive. The presence of that file (contents don't matter) will do Alt-F2 for you. That will not make DOS/WIN work, but booting will likely be fixed (no guarantees).
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 25, 2023, 09:24:14 pm
Hi Andrew,

About WordStar, this is just a suggestion, I would migrate away from it and start using a modern word processor. But it is up to you to see if you feel comfortable with a modern word processor.

1) Get OpenOffice for ArcaOS (https://www.bitwiseworks.com/shop/index.php?id_product=33&controller=product&id_lang=1). Start first using OpenOffice Writer and write something else, get used to it, play it around and check if you see yourself using that word processor tool.  Don't think about the migration yet when you are learning it.

2) About the migration, if you can post a non-confidential, but some kind of complex or big WS file here, I can try to see the migration path from a WS file to a .ODT  (OpenDocument Text ) file format, which is the one native on OpenOffice. But it is up to you if you can share that file here on the forum. You can upload .zip files here.

These are just suggestions.

Regards
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Doug Bissett on November 26, 2023, 07:30:20 pm
Quote
(Re: Doug)  M900?  Oh, Lord.  I'm guessing that "a Tiny" doesn't quite cut it as an answer.

"Tiny" has nothing to do with it. What is the model, so we can tell, exactly, what it is?

The "Tiny" probably means that it has no cooling fan, and will be somewhat sensitive to heat (which will cause it to slow down, to protect itself from overheating). Not a great problem, but be aware that placing anything on top of it (or even near it) will tend to capture heat, and aggravate the problem. Otherwise, the "Tiny" should be much the same as a "normal" PC. The question is: is it UEFI capable, and is it enabled properly? If not, the new Arca Noae support for DOS/WIN will not be enabled.

Quote
If there is a way to ask the m/c, I can give it a go.

Go to a command prompt, and run "TESTLOG GENERIC" (no quotes). It will create a lot of information about the machine, and how it is configured. Post it here.
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Rich Walsh on November 26, 2023, 08:23:32 pm
The question is: is it UEFI capable, and is it enabled properly?

FWIW... the easiest / fastest way to determine if you're in UEFI or CSM mode is to go to the System Setup->Screen object. At the top of the first page (possibly out of sight unless you make the window taller), a UEFI boot will show:

Card name:  UEFI VESA Emulator v1.0
Card vendor: Arca Noae, LLC
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on November 27, 2023, 03:28:47 pm
I suggest that you post the entire testlog. It has other interesting information.
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 27, 2023, 03:48:16 pm
..."ThinkCentre (UK spelling) M900.  Machine Type: 10FL.  Model Number: S3E500.  MFG Date: 1607." ...

Just for reference:
- https://psref.lenovo.com/Product/ThinkCentre/ThinkCentre_M900_Tiny
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: ivan on November 27, 2023, 05:21:19 pm
I just tried to look up the ThinkCentre M900 Tiny and Lenovo has it as 'Withdrawn' which usually means there have been problems with manufacture which could explain the problems you are having.

Maybe I'm biased but I always avoid anything with an Intel processor, for me it has been AMD all the way since the advent of their 486.  I have set up a couple of friends with Beelink mini units and If I didn't have all my computers I would get one for myself.
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Rich Walsh on November 27, 2023, 05:24:40 pm
a) If I click on Quattro Pro's icon, it starts up normally in a full-screen DOS session.  But trying to open the "Icon" page in its Properties still freezes the system and it's CAD Time.

While there may be an issue with QP's icon, I'd suggest trying something else first.

In 'c:\os2\install' you'll find a file named 'database.txt'. Rename it. This is a listing of known DOS & Win3 apps along with the specialized DOS/WinOS2 session settings for each. When you create a new program object for one of these apps, the system automatically imports the associated settings (or at least, it used to). In the past this was known to cause problems sometimes, so it's best to eliminate it as a suspect (you can always open it in Text Editor and manually apply these settings - both WS and QP are listed).

Quote
Trash Can's Properties do not seem to offer any way to change the icon.  Is this a Sinister Indicator?

Unlike other folders, Trash Can's icons show Empty/Full rather than Closed/Open. I guess the original author didn't want you screwing up his handiwork.

Quote
d)  How do I configure the Drives to open in icon mode by clicking on them, not on the "Open As..." menu option?  Believe me, I have searched for a setting that stays put.

In addition to the Menu page in its notebook (which has been there since 1992), there's also what may be XWP's single-best enhancement: Select 'Open as', then shift-click on the view you want as the default. Drive objects can be "difficult" and may require you to do this twice.

Quote
And Drive names also seem immune to the normal name-changing procedures (such as that page in Properties).

Drive objects are recreated at each restart and assigned a name formulaically. You can select a different "formula" by opening the Drives' notebook to the misnamed 'Drive icons' page and selecting one of the alternatives. All changes are live, so have the Drives folder open to see the effects.
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Martin Iturbide on November 27, 2023, 08:49:01 pm
Hi Ivan

I just tried to look up the ThinkCentre M900 Tiny and Lenovo has it as 'Withdrawn' which usually means there have been problems with manufacture which could explain the problems you are having.

For  what I had seen "'Withdrawn" means that is not longer for sale or since it was released long ago it no longer has support (parts, warranty, newer drivers, firmware updates, etc). It does not means it had problems or defects.

Regards
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Doug Bissett on November 27, 2023, 11:21:58 pm
I suggest that you post the entire testlog. It has other interesting information.
I'm probably doing something wrong because the file containing that quote was HUGE.  I hesitate to impose it on this Forum.  "Attachments and other options", below the entry-posting window, looks simple enough but I need to be sure you get the wanted file. There are a lot to choose from.  And I'm posting via my Windows 10 laptop, not my AOS Machine; juggling them gets messy, involving unreliable USB sticks.  (&c)   :(  Can you be more specific, please?  Like in those old fairy tales, be careful what you wish for.   :-\

(Last moment reply:)  Martin, thanks for the Lenovo URL.  I'm not sure which of those is closest to mine.

There are many of those things. The ONLY way to know, exactly, what you have, is by using TESLOG, for that specific machine. Anything else leaves us wondering what it is.
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Tom on November 27, 2023, 11:57:04 pm
I suggest that you post the entire testlog. It has other interesting information.

Ahem, it also contains your real name, registration number with AN and email address, all in plain text.
So it seems advisable to delete that personal information before you post your testlog output on this public forum!
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Dave Yeo on November 28, 2023, 01:23:59 am
Hi Ivan

I just tried to look up the ThinkCentre M900 Tiny and Lenovo has it as 'Withdrawn' which usually means there have been problems with manufacture which could explain the problems you are having.

For  what I had seen "'Withdrawn" means that is not longer for sale or since it was released long ago it no longer has support (parts, warranty, newer drivers, firmware updates, etc). It does not means it had problems or defects.

Regards

I'm now using a M910S, which I believe was the replacement for the 900 series and also withdrawn due to age, it's from 2018. It's very OS/2, or rather AOS compatible, even has 3.41 GB of available memory.
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: SoundChaser on November 29, 2023, 12:49:48 am
Andrew, should the migration route to OpenOffice doesn't go smoothly and you need to bring the WS files to a newer format, you might want to consider converting them to WordPerfect format first. That format is well converted iirc.
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Pete on December 02, 2023, 05:15:56 pm
Hi Andrew

Not sure what you have done to cause booting problems... The only thing you seem to be admitting to is renaming database.txt - which should not cause these problems.

When booted to the Maintenance partition can you access files on the usual boot drive without problems?


In case of a): I suggest you use the install option to Update/Upgrade existing installation as that should re-install to existing locations.


Regards

Pete


Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Pete on December 02, 2023, 07:32:36 pm
Hi Andrew

For b) My experience with importing PDF files into OO is it is best avoided as OO cannot open PDF files and tends to mangle them when doing an import as text. Your best option would be if WS and QP can export in M$ format ie DOC and XLS otherwise I think you are stuck with RTF as export format.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Pete on December 04, 2023, 02:01:26 am
Hi Andrew

Picking up on this "... so I have yet to know the joy of the installation process." and I seem to recall you are UK based so some Install bootup tips:-

     Make sure system BIOS is set to boot from whichever install media (DVD/USB Flash)

   At 1st menu: select Boot from install media

   Next Menu: Select to start installer using own settings (similar wording) which will allow you to select UK keyboard amongst  other tweaks

Once installer has started accept License and somewhere towards the bottom of the next page in Installation Type you select to Update/Upgrade which should reinstall to existing drives/paths.

You should read through [Install Media]:\ArcaOS50_UpdaterSupplementaryGuide.pdf *before* starting

If the Update/Upgrade option does not appear you may have to try and trick the installer by editing the installed [Boot Drive]:\sys\install\install.flg (text file) to show an earlier release eg:- copy install.flg to install.flg.ORG (in case of mishaps) then edit install.flg changing ArcaOS 5.1.0 EN to ArcaOS 5.0.7 EN, Save and Exit. Now the installer should find a 5.0.7 installation to Update/Upgrade - hopefully...

I have only tried 1 Update/Upgrade: 5.0.1 to 5.1.0 which went fairly well - may have found a SNAP bug in the process though, have to double check.


Regards

Pete
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: CalYY on December 08, 2023, 09:24:00 pm
Have you tried Write and Set? An OS/2 version of Wordstar.

http://www.WriteAndSet.com/english/indxf.html
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Dave Yeo on December 26, 2023, 09:57:47 pm
How about this, from http://wordtsar.ca/ (http://wordtsar.ca/). Only tested that it runs.
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Martin Iturbide on December 26, 2023, 11:56:32 pm
Hello Dave

It looks nice. Allow me to upload it to hobbes this way. Let me know if you want to add anything else to the readme.

Regards
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Dave Yeo on December 27, 2023, 12:43:29 am
Hi Martin, a link to the source, https://sourceforge.net/projects/wordtsar/files/Releases/WordTsar-0.3.719/ (https://sourceforge.net/projects/wordtsar/files/Releases/WordTsar-0.3.719/), a link to wordtsar.ca, a copy of the license (remove the .txt), perhaps a note about it being alpha software.
Edit: missed your zip, the source link should be the above URL, otherwise add the license
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Neil Waldhauer on December 28, 2023, 01:21:04 am
It's hard to make backup to a FAT32 drive work. The same drive with JFS will be stable.
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: ivan on December 28, 2023, 02:05:45 pm
Hi Andrew,

For serious backups you need a larger NAS box.  They are fast and have redundancy.
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Pete on December 28, 2023, 04:59:39 pm
Hi Andrew

Network Attached Storage

Very useful if running a small network at home as all devices can be setup to use that for backups.

Probably a bit OTT (Over The Top) for your current needs ...


Regards

Pete

Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Dave Yeo on December 28, 2023, 05:48:09 pm
It's hard to make backup to a FAT32 drive work. The same drive with JFS will be stable.

When I first got a 2TB USB drive, I partitioned it as one JFS volume. With lots of small source code files, I ran into the problem of chkdsk running out of memory, so I ended up splitting it into 3 partitions including one for Linux.
Still slow to do a chkdsk and have to be careful as the removable drives widget will try to run 2 chkdsks at once if chkdsk is needed, which I assume would take forever as the drive head would be bouncing around so much.
In emergencies, I've done fsck.jfs on the removable drive in Linux (Mint)
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Martin Iturbide on January 06, 2024, 03:06:17 pm
So those nice people who are writing new implementations (eg, WordTsar) may be our best/only bet.

Hello Andrew.

So, did you tried WordTsar ? Do you think it can fit your needs? (Link (https://hobbes.nmsu.edu/download/pub/os2/apps/wp/WordTsar_0-3b719.zip))

Regards
Title: Re: DOS VDM: WordStar-for-DOS 7c ("WS") and Borland Quattro Pro ("QP")
Post by: Dave Yeo on January 06, 2024, 03:41:44 pm
So, did you tried WordTsar ? Do you think it can fit your needs?
Er, I did not realise I could.  Oops.  My impression was that WT is only available for platforms other than AOS and DOS.  I shall have to get back to this question because time grows short for me to complete tax returns, using my current setup of WS and QP in AOS DOS sessions.

Due to it being a Qt app, it easily built on AOS and should work much the same as on other platforms. No DOS port. Hasn't had much testing so could be bugs and deficiencies in our Qt5 port.