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Messages - Doug Bissett

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1441
Hardware / Re: OS/2 compatible?
« on: November 30, 2013, 06:08:16 pm »
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To clean it up internally it will be great if you can find a "canned air" dustbuster (or something like that) to remove all the dirt inside it.

I recommend NOT using compressed air. It can end up causing more problems than it fixes. Use a vacuum cleaner, with a plastic wand, and be very careful not to remove things (like jumpers) from the motherboard etc. Also be careful not to knock things loose.

Three reasons why I suggest NOT using compressed air:

1) It can force dust into the contacts, causing connection problems.

2) It just spreads the dust around the room, to be collected later by the machine(s).

3) The dust that ends up in the room will linger, long after you finish the job. Even if you use a mask while doing it, you will be breathing the dust for some time after, and that dust likely contains things that you don't want to be breathing.

Remember that the only thing that collects more dust than a computer, is a vacuum cleaner.

1442
Hardware / Re: OS/2 compatible?
« on: November 29, 2013, 05:17:05 pm »
My brother had an Aptiva, many years ago. It came with warp 3 installed, along with DOS 7.0 and Win 3.1. OS/2 worked well, and eCS 1.0 also worked well, before it became unusable for modern browsers (not enough memory). The other "problem" was that it had an IBM sound card that required a very hard to find driver. We eventually scrapped that (not as easy as it sounds), and put in an old SoundBlaster.

All of that may, or may not, apply to what you have. What, EXACTLY is it that you have? Knowing the Machine type, and model, might help to answer your question (ISTR that there are probably about 100 Aptiva models, covering about 20 years).

Sell it? You would be lucky to get $10 for an old machine, no matter what OS is installed. If it is not working, you would need to describe, exactly what is not working, to decide whether it can be fixed. Putting any money into it would not be cost effective.

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I hear the Aptivas can run OS/2 natively

That statement could be misinterpreted, so I will counter with this statement: " Most computers, made after 1987 will run OS/2, or eCS, natively. Some do it better than others, and the main "problems" are caused by cheap, "windows only" devices, that won't work without a specific windows driver. Fortunately, most of them seem to have gone out of business, simply because Linux has become big enough to get the attention of the manufacturers. The other major "problem" is lack of drivers for the newest hardware, which would not be a problem, in this case.

1443
Networking / Re: XWLan updates
« on: November 24, 2013, 06:17:58 pm »
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If the URL above doesn't work, contact Doug privately for more information.

That URL doesn't respond, this morning, for me. You can find all of my stuff at: ftp://genmac@ftp.os2voice.org/ (use the word "unsupported" - lower case, and no quotes - as a password, if it asks). Be sure to read the readme files. The GenMU* files contain drivers that have been reported to work (that doesn't mean that they will work for you). The GenMU_TEST* files have been packaged, for simple installation, but nobody has reported that they actually work, or some have reported that they do not work (some also have multiple drivers in them, with the most likely to work one picked). I have more drivers for Intel, and Realtek, but they have been replaced by existing MultiMac drivers, so they were pulled from the packages. It is easy to create a new package for a GENMAC driver, if you send me the required information (or upload it to the FTP site, as instructed in the readme). There is no guarantee that what gets packaged will work for you, or anybody else.

Note that unsupported WiFi devices have no hope of working, without patching C:\IBMCOM\macs\GENM32W.OS2. If you don't do that, correctly, GENMAC fails to load something that is required to communicate with XWLan. The instructions are in the README files, but the installer does it for you.

1444
General Discussion / Re: What is the agenda for OS/2 today?
« on: November 18, 2013, 08:18:33 am »
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You have your opinion, but I don't share that.  Do I have to reply to your post? or it will not make any difference on your way to see it?

How can I change my view? My view is supported by facts. Your view is  only a dream. I would like to see your view come true, BUT, I do NOT want to see you destroy what is left of OS/2, by sucking the life out of what is left of it. You will not find a developer who is willing to take on the job, for the funds that you will be able to attract (unless somebody wins the lottery, and donates the funds to the project). All of that effort could be put to much better use.

IF eCS can ever catch up to the basic expectations of a new user, we might get enough momentum to take on larger projects. Meanwhile, forget the 64 bit kernel, and the WPS, we need WiFi, Bluetooth, a complete USB stack (including USB 3.0), accelerated video, an up to date browser, and some other things. All of them are possible, and some are in the works, at Mensys, but it is difficult to find developers who can do the job, never mind those who will work for small compensation, simply because they also want to see eCS succeed.

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The same thing "Why do you do something about the 64bits kernel?

Simply because, the kernel would be an even bigger job than the WPS. Do YOU know anybody who has the skills to build a new kernel, that will do what the OS/2 kernel does?  I know that I don't. Therefore, we are back to borrowing software from Linux. If we do that, we might as well use Linux. There is the Russian group who are messing around with the kernel, but it has been a LOT of years, with little result. Then, there is the problem of all of the other things that would need to be updated to be able to actually use a new kernel. The full IBM development team would be required to get the job done in our lifetimes (especially if they really don't have the source). Despite what others seem to think, I still believe that the whole desktop platform (including laptops, as we know them), will be finished in the next few years, and it is very unlikely that OS/2 will survive as an OS that runs in a real machine. If it runs in a virtual machine, there would be no need for a lot of the ported software, because it would run better in the host machine.

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I will focus on keep updating the EDM/2 Wiki, the OS2World Wiki, trying to organize more open source code at github.com/os2world and sharing the news at OS2World.com. You are free to help like everybody here.

This is all good. It helps those who are doing, or learning, development, and it doesn't take away anything from what is being done, to extend the life of OS/2, today. Some of it may even be new enough, that some people might be able to learn a bit about programing from it.

1445
General Discussion / Re: What is the agenda for OS/2 today?
« on: November 17, 2013, 07:58:05 pm »
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I don't see Mensys doing a job to open source OS/2, I don't see it on Roderick conversations and I don't see it the eComStation web site.

Well, I do see it happening. Do a Google search on "eComStation open source svn", and you will find a list of what is available, as OPEN SOURCE. Check those packages, and they will tell you where to find the source, including for ACPI and MultiMac. What you don't find there, are the binaries. They are in Software Subscription, until they are released in a new version of eCS. So far, everything, that I know about, has been included. There are also a few packages that Mensys has contracted to include in eCS (DragText), that are NOT there, but they are available to everybody on the shareware model. I also think that Mensys has been collecting source code for those packages, but will not make that available, because of a contract with the developer, that includes a way to open source it, under certain conditions.

Mensys has NOT been silly enough to try to rewrite OS/2. After all, it took IBM, with a large team, many years to get OS/2 to the state it was in when they quit, and they had the source code. What Mensys has been doing, makes a LOT more sense than what you propose. If eCS lasts long enough, and finances permit, Mensys will do more, and that may include rewriting parts of the OS. Meanwhile, they are being realistic about the whole thing, while you are not.

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Why do you do something about Multimac?

Actually, I have been doing something about MultiMac. I have been attempting to keep Genmac going, while we wait for MultiMac. Unfortunately, it seems that Genmac has come to an end (what works, still works, but newer stuff does not). I have also been testing new releases of MultiMac, and doing what is necessary to help the current developer(s) to fix the problems, that I find, although supplying them with hardware seems to be most effective at getting it to work (Mensys has been doing that). What MultiMac needs, is a developer to buy a new device that doesn't work with the current support. Perhaps they would be interested enough to go to the source, and figure it out. If we expect users to fund it, we might as well tell Mensys to do the funding model, and have them collect the money. Of course, that would mean that they would need to sell the final product, rather than supply it for free (like they did with OpenOffice), simply because those who did fund it would feel cheated if others got it for nothing. I think that is the main reason why it is so difficult to get funding for projects like Firefox.

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I want to set a goal for the WPS development but I haven't find a developers that wants to help on this yet.

I wish you luck. Perhaps it would be easier, if you would start with a less ambitious project, that some developer might actually know something about. Most, if not all, developers know that what you propose is going to tie up, at least 5, programers, for many years. Most of the first year will be to figure out what they are actually trying to do. Until they figure that out, it would be impossible to quote any numbers, like how much, or how long. So, you are likely looking a half a million dollars, just to get some realistic numbers to do the project. No developer will put that into a project for an OS that can't even do accelerated video, or WiFi. Users are not likely to fund it, because there is a good chance that the numbers will come back at an impossible amount, and there will be nothing to show for what has been spent already. Users are reluctant enough to fund Firefox development, where some progress has been demonstrated.

The only hope that you have, would be to find retired programers who actually worked on the project for IBM, and are looking for something to do. There should be lots of them who worked on small parts of the WPS, but I suspect that those who did the initial design are not going to be interested, and you would need a few of them, just to map out what it does (if anybody can remember all, or most, of it).

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but we are community of users, that's why we need to look to remain with the platform in time.

I hate to say it, but you are dreaming in technicolor. There are too few users to support anything more than what is being done today, and Mensys is funding a lot of what is being done (volunteers do the rest). It is also obvious, that Linux has caught up to windows, and will soon pass OS/2. Some say that it has happened already, and it has, in many ways. The WPS, on it's own, is not going to save eCS. More important would be to get the Kernel updated to 64 bit code. I would assume that that would also cure the memory space restrictions. Of course, doing that would mean that most other parts of eCS would also need to be updated. Drivers, for instance, are still 16 bit code, and, from what I hear, 16 bit code simply will not run on a 64 bit system. Prognosis: Not likely to happen, but that would probably be a requirement to make a new WPS actually worth the time, and effort. Patching up what we already have (the SMP patches), and adding parts (ACPI, MultiMac) that are essential to being able to actually use OS/2, is the only way to prolong the life of the product (short of the lottery scenario). You, Mensys, or even Microsoft, will never be able to stop progress in Linux,  and once the users get to the point where eCS can no longer do the job, they will be forced to switch to something else. Even if you had a new WPS today, it would only delay the inevitable by a short period of time. It is equivalent to putting a new convertible top on a rusty old Nash Rambler, with bald tires. It would make more sense to replace the tires, and get more life out of it, but doing either one, would not increase the value of the car, and it is only a matter of time, until it stops working.

1446
General Discussion / Re: What is the agenda for OS/2 today?
« on: November 17, 2013, 07:41:09 am »
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I don't think that Mensys wants a full OS/2 open source that can last in time.

Of course they do. They just know that eCS must live within the limits of what it is. You, on the other hand, don't seem to understand what it is you are proposing.

Where do you think you are going to get a team of at least 5 very competent programers to do the job, for free? You can't take them from the current pool, or eCS will be long gone before your team even maps out what it is you ask of them. Better to expand the XWorkPlace project, if you can find volunteers. After all, whatever gets done there will be applicable to anything further that eventually gets done by your WPS project, should it survive long enough to be useful.

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If Mensys wanted to walk fully the open source path, they will open source ACPI.

You must realize, that Mensys has paid for that development, and they do need to make some return on the project. As you note, the original source is available. Go ahead and make your own. They have made most of what they have paid for available to the whole OS/2 community. Some of the community, on the other hand seems to think that they should get it all, for free. I, for one, don't agree. I have supported eCS from the time I heard about it. Others still seem to think they don't need to contribute to get the benefits of other people's work. Sorry, but it seems that Mensys needs a carrot to dangle in front of the rabbit. I think they have been more than generous in sharing what they develop.

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I insist (personal opinion) to start on WPS with simple, trying to make a 100% replacement of the basic child WPS class.

Well, my personal opinion is, that doing that would be about the fastest way to finish off eCS, but go for it, as long as you don't take away from what is already being done. If you do, eCS will wither, and die, long before any progress is made. 10 years ago, you might have had a chance. Today, I doubt it, unless you have a small fortune to sink into the project.

1447
General Discussion / Re: What is the agenda for OS/2 today?
« on: November 16, 2013, 09:24:19 pm »
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Like a told before, I think that Mensys is doing a good job, but they have a long term strategy, which gets hard to attract new members to this community.

Mensys has the same long term strategy that you have. The main difference is that they realize that you need to make what you have work, within the parameters of what you have to work with. Mensys does need to be more organized. It is apparent that they have little, or no, quality control for the overall project, and they are in react mode, most of the time. I can understand why that is the case, but it doesn't help the perception of what eCS is all about.

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But please do not take is as it is "WPS" or nothing. There are also other components that need to be replaced for example:
1) SOM - http://sourceforge.net/projects/somfree/
2) Presentation Manager - http://frepm.sourceforge.net/

You sure can pick the hard parts. We have a bicycle, and you want to haul a 30 ton load. Lets start with something that a bicycle can haul, and work up from there.  If nothing else, it should give some people a bit of training in how to do such things, before they try to tackle the big jobs. You can't expect your average apprentice welder to build a suspension bridge, without the proper training. It is easy enough to say "lets build a new suspension bridge", but if you have only one apprentice welder who is willing to help, and no funding, I would suggest that you have a major problem. Any attempt to actually do the project will not turn out well, and would probably convince most people that it is "impossible".

We know that eCS desperately needs a few things, just to be viable, in the short term. Pick one of them, and see how it goes. My first choice would be for somebody to pick up the Multimac project, for wired devices. Once eCS 2.2 gets out the door, wireless devices are supposed to be worked on. Once that is developed, somebody needs to work on more support for them too. It is also evident, that we need more modern development tools. Paul S. has been working on that, but he is only one guy, doing it part time. Without that, it is highly unlikely that much new work, of any kind, can happen.

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We still have the disadvantage (compared to Linux) that OS/2 is not free of charge

Now that is one of the main problems. Unfortunately, eCS cannot be "free of charge", simply because it is a commercial product (IBM's product. Mensys is simply a non profit organization, when it comes to eCS). You must also remember, that Linux is supported by a number of large corporations (including IBM), for both financing, and development, and it has outside funding as well. ECS has commercial, and private, users supporting it. Users are a little different, because few of them contribute anything but a bit of money. Even trying to get people to support something like the Firefox project, or JAVA, has been like pulling teeth. Some people willingly help out. Most simply sit back, and wait for somebody else to do it, then complain when something goes wrong. Much of what is being done today, should have been done 10 years ago, but most people simply sat back, waiting for IBM (or others) to step back into the game. Now, it may be too late to catch up. It may even be too late to keep up, unless everybody starts to help out.

1448
General Discussion / Re: What is the agenda for OS/2 today?
« on: November 16, 2013, 05:04:13 am »
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This development could be helped if the underlying code becomes open source once/if patent rights expire (and I believe they do in 3-4 years as there was little development in the source past OS/2 ver 4.52) as that makes life easier and more fun for developers.

It will, IF, and only IF, the source code is made available. That could be the reason why IBM hinted that they have "lost" the source code. Once patent rights run out, nothing changes, unless the source code is made available, and I expect that that will never happen.

What it might do, is encourage more people to start deconstructing OS/2, as some of the Russians have been doing. However, I think that Mensys has been doing some of that too, to get to the most serious problems. That was how they came up with those extra fixes that were included with ACPI. As I understand it, they were told, by IBM, to do whatever they thought was necessary.

My view is, that anything that is developed from scratch, needs to be open source. But the WPS is definitely NOT the place to start, for a rebuild project. There are many smaller parts of OS/2 that basically stand alone, that could be reworked, with fewer people required, and a much better chance to show some progress in the near future. Some of that stuff has been started, by porting parts of Linux, but there has been little interest, so far, partly because the parts that have been done (BIND, DHCP) are not understood by most users, and many are afraid to try that stuff, simply because they are afraid to render their systems unusable. Also, there has been little "advertizing" about those things, so many people don't even know that they exist. OS2world does post announcements, which helps, but people don't bother looking at stuff that they don't understand.

One of the more troublesome parts of OS/2 is XCOPY (which may be one of the things that Microsoft still has some code in). The function of XCOPY is pretty well understood, and many people use it, but it is known that XCOPY has trouble with many thousands of files. Trying to fix the original program doesn't make sense, but it should not be too difficult for somebody to map out what it is supposed to do, and write a new program to do it. While they are at it, they might as well use resources that are available, like large memory, and AHCI function, that was not available when the original program was written.

MiniLVM is required to set up disk drives, but it also has some limitations that have not been resolved. Mensys has the code for that program, but I suspect that the faults are in the base LVM code. This will need to be fixed, if we ever hope to support large (>2TB) disk drives. I think that Mensys has done a preliminary evaluation, but I don't think much else has been done.

Then, there is the question of NIC drivers. Mensys has developed the NVETH (NVIDIA), Intel, and Realtek, NIC drivers (wired versions only, so far). They were always supposed to be developed as a template, so that other people could continue the project, and develop more drivers for more devices (RALINK, BROADCOM etc.). AFAIK, nobody has stepped up to do that. The same will be true after Mensys gets a template for wireless devices. There will also be requirements to update the current MultiMac drivers, as newer devices become available. Somebody had better become interested, or we are going nowhere fast.

USB devices: Wim Brule has stepped up to make video cameras work, but I think he is working alone, and I have no idea what license model he might be using (if any). He also did the Canon 4400F (?) scanner thing, and the USBECD driver, which makes it possible to interface with "unknown" USB devices (among other things).

Mensys does, of course, have other things that they are working on (ACPI, AHCI, etc.), but that is only a small part of what needs to be done, in the short term. UEFI is already causing a lot of trouble, with no resolution in sight.

OS/2 today, is so far behind, that it will likely be impossible to catch up. Many, talented, people are working at keeping it going, but little work is being done to make advances. It would take many more talented people to make progress. As noted, if somebody pulls those talented people out of the mix, to do something like rewrite the WPS, there will be nobody left to keep it going in the short term. If the base OS stops working, any work done on the WPS project will be for nothing. Of course, there are still virtual machines, and old hardware, to run it on, but that certainly isn't going to attract serious new users.

So, back to:
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What is the agenda for OS/2 today?

The way I see it, is that the agenda is to work as hard as possible, to extend the life as much as possible, with the resources that we have available. To do that, every OS/2 (eCS) user will need to contribute in one way, or another, and priorities will have to be established. Mensys has established some priorities, but they are subject to the reality that they need to be able to pay for what they do (including pay salaries). It is okay to dream about open sourcing the WPS, but doing it will mean that other areas will suffer. You can have the best WPS possible, but what good is it if you can't even boot OS/2, because it can't figure out UEFI? Those who have avoided upgrading to eCS, for one reason or another, are not helping the cause.

Second agenda: Somebody needs to win a BIG lottery, and donate a good chunk of it to new development. There was a case, recently, where some guy got whacked twice by lightening, in the same storm, and lived, so it may not be impossible.

1449
Article Discussions / Re: ecs 2.2
« on: November 14, 2013, 07:01:35 pm »
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That's a point to consider. But still I try envision a corporate workflow where a graphic designer has a tablet and a desk full of peripherals as means to accomplish work. It's hard for me to see what the advantages are against a desktop computer. But who knows, stranger things have happened.

There isn't a lot of difference between using a tablet, with a bunch of peripherals, and using a desktop, with the same peripherals. The brain box is just a little smaller, physically. It is done a lot now, using a laptop as the brain box. When the price of a desktop exceeds the price of a tablet (or even a cell phone), and they will do the same thing, why would anyone want to use a desktop? That will reduce demand for the desktop even further, the price will go up, and demand will fall again. It won't take long before desktops price themselves out of the market. Somebody may continue to make one, for those who can afford it, and have some need (that I can't even imagine), but they won't be something that the average user will be willing to buy.

Check out: http://www.linuxmint.com/store_mintbox.php. This appears to be a full blown computer. It runs Linux Mint, by default, but the specs look like it should be able to run eCS (although using the DataPort, or HDMI, for the display may prove to be a problem - I have not been able to get eCS to use the dataport on my Lenovo ThinkPad L530, or my Lenovo ThinkPad T510). Worst case, would be to run eCS, in a VBox, under Linux Mint (which seems to work okay in my Lenovo ThinkPad L530).

1450
Article Discussions / Re: ecs 2.2
« on: November 14, 2013, 06:22:17 pm »
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In my opinion it was the wrong decision not to concentrate on selected hardware.

That is a two way street. If you choose a hardware configuration, by the time you have it settled, and working, the hardware is no longer available, and nobody wants to buy it anyway, because there is newer stuff available. The only way to make that work, is to do it like Apple does. Go to the manufacturers, and get the very first devices off the production line, test them, and make them work, then buy 200,000 of them at the tail end of the production run (probably a special run, just for Apple). I doubt that Mensys (or anybody else), would be able to sell enough product to do that. Then, you have the problem where selected devices are not available in all countries, so you need to go through the procedure for alternate devices, after you figure out what is available. Of course, notebook computers really don't have replaceable parts, in a lot of cases.

In fact, I think that most OS/2 (eCS) users already choose carefully. Unfortunately, the manufacturers keep changing what is available, and sometimes things don't work out as expected.

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I tried to build an bootable USB stick using Linux, that automatically starts Linux and then OS/2 in a virtual machine.

When I first tried Linux Mint, I found out that it will install to a USB stick, so I did so. It works okay, but even USB 3.0 is pretty slow. I did not attempt to use VBox with that setup, but the (same) stick would boot on all of my "modern" machines, and managed to configure all of the devices. I only have one machine with a USB 3.0 adapter, and it worked okay. The rest, with USB 2.0, were painfully slow. After that, I put Linux Mint 15 cinnamon 64 onto my Lenovo ThinkPad L530, which was causing problems for native eCS. All of the devices work, and the speed is quite good. I then put VBox into that, and I have WinXP, eCS 2.1 and eCS 2.2 installed in it. The really surprising thing is that eCS boots about 50% faster in VBox, than it does in the real machine (that by itself causes boot problems). ECS performance is comparable to the real machine, and it seems to work okay, but I haven't used it much. I have not tried to make eCS start automatically at boot, but it should be possible.  The difficult part, so far, has been to figure out Linux, and all of the new rules (not to mention having to enter the mandatory password about every 5th time I try to do something).

This exercise did point out what I said earlier. There is no point in trying to run something like Firefox, or VLC, in VBox, under Linux. Both work better in the native Linux environment (which is running anyway). I have been playing with that configuration, but I am still not convinced that Linux is ready for prime time. Some other distro might be better, but it would take a couple of months, doing nothing else, to check them all out. FWIW, Linux Mint is the first Linux, that I have tried, that sort of works, for me.

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I really believe there are *a lot* of WPS classes that could be replaced/developed by basic to medium-skilled programmers but, as it happens to myself, they just have no time to figure out how to start.

That is one of the problems. Programing the WPS is a little different, and there is a learning curve. I would expect that once you figure out the basics, that it is not that difficult, after all, I seem to recall that Ulrich Möller is (was?) a lawyer, not a programer (perhaps tat is the secret). I think that the ultimate example of WPS programing is XWorkPlace (eWorkPlace is a subset of that). XWorkPlace is, of course, (mostly) just an extension of the WPS classes, not a complete replacement (although you CAN just replace an individual class). Perhaps that would be a place to start.

In fact, now that I think of it, XWorkPlace is really a good beginning to Martin's idea. What is a little different is that he seems to want to replace the root classes with something new, rather than just use the object oriented interface to fix, change, or replace the root classes. XWorkPlace could definitely use a bit of tweaking. The most annoying thing is that it shows a file size of 1 byte, for all files that are bigger than 2 GB. I suspect that that is caused by using the REXX DLLs, because REXX has the same problem.

1451
Article Discussions / Re: ecs 2.2
« on: November 14, 2013, 01:51:58 am »
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Ever try to update a website using a tablet? Do desktop publishing on 7 inch screen? Create graphics? It doesn't work that well.

Well, it is just as easy, if you simply add a screen (can be a modern TV set, which most people have anyway, but could be any number of other things, that haven't been announced yet), a proper keyboard, and a mouse. Beside that, what makes you think that people will be using the current generation of screens? Look at what Google has done to a pair of glasses. Throw in voice recognition, and a bit of artificial intelligence, and you no longer have the current restrictions. It all needs software support though.

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The market of communicators and tablets is a separate market. Huge but different market. Desktop computers and notebooks will not disappear.

I think you are wrong. Why would anyone want a desktop system, when they can have something that is just as powerful, more common, better supported, and probably a lot cheaper? As I said above, add a screen, keyboard, and mouse, and you have what we call a desktop today. You also have a portable device, when you want it. Today, they are separate markets. Very soon, it will be one market. It wasn't all that long ago that the digital camera market was separated from the cell phone market. There are still high end cameras (supported mostly by those who want/need special lenses), but cell phones now take pictures that are just as good as the cheaper cameras take. The result is that cheaper cameras are not selling very well (if they still exist). Technology moves on, eCS cannot move fast enough to keep up. Business is out to make money. Making, and selling, 1000 desktops, or laptops, will not make any money for any company that tries it, they need large volumes, or they need to charge a LOT more for each unit. The market will be gone. When the market is gone, the product also goes away, and that is already happening. Whether it is a good thing, or not, remains to be seen, but it will happen.

1452
Article Discussions / Re: ecs 2.2
« on: November 13, 2013, 10:16:56 pm »
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What is going to happen after 3 years? I don't find it nice to say "lets see what happens".  Let's make the plan today for a long term strategy. Let's start working on making an open source WPS class replacement today.

If you take enough developers out of the development pool to do that, eCS won't run on any new hardware in 3 years. It is already having trouble running on a lot of new hardware, and the developers are going flat out, trying to fix that problem. ECS will continue to run on older hardware, which should be okay for those who continue to use it, until they need a new machine, or some function that doesn't work.

I expect that eCS, in it's current form, will last long enough to see the demise of the desktop computer. To adapt it to things like the iPad, or cell phones, would be an even bigger project than what you envision. Even Microsoft is struggling with that one. If there is no hardware that will run OS/2, there is no OS to run the WPS, new or old. What runs today, will continue to run, but OS/2 has hit critical mass. There are not enough users to support new development, other than to develop a few drivers, and we are not likely to attract new users, if eCS won't run on new hardware. The WPS itself, is not going to save OS/2. What is becoming very evident, is that the only way forward is to concentrate on making eCS work in virtual machines. Virtual machines already add a lot of overhead to running OS/2 (or any other OS), but it will also become evident that there is no point in running something like Firefox (or any other program that has been ported from the host OS environment) in a virtual machine, when it runs at least as well (and probably better) in the host OS (windows, or Linux). That leaves a few "special" programs, written specifically for OS/2, that need to run in the OS/2 environment, and there are not a lot of them that depend on the WPS. Almost all recent development has concentrated on porting programs from other environments (usually Linux), with varying results. By doing that, there is becoming less reason to actually use OS/2, and none of them use the WPS. It is a self defeating strategy, but following your plan will kill it faster, simply because there will be nobody left to work on the basics.

As I have said before, all good things eventually come to an end. OS/2 has had a good run, and it can be useful for some time yet, but it will come to an end. Unfortunately, the end is in sight. Not because eCS doesn't look modern (or other silly considerations), but because the whole desktop, and laptop, platform is coming to an end. It would not be possible for anyone less than IBM, or Microsoft, to make all of the necessary changes to adapt to that reality, in time for it to happen. Linux will survive, simply because it is already the OS for the new devices, and Microsoft is moving that way, as fast as they can. PC sales, world wide, have dropped drastically in the last few years. Once they become more expensive to produce, than the hand held devices, they will quickly disappear. 3 years? Maybe 5, but not much more than that. ECS will live on in older hardware, and in virtual machines, but there will be no new software developed (the "killer app" if you like) that would be likely to cause enough excitement to save the whole thing. Those companies that are still supporting eCS are not going to develop new software for eCS. Once enough new stuff is developed for other platforms, eCS will become redundant, and it will simply be abandoned, as DOS has been abandoned. There is nothing wrong with DOS, it simply can't do the job any more. Pretty soon, OS/2 will be in that same position, whether the WPS has been rebuilt, or not.

So, the only real option, is to keep it going as long as possible, but that means concentrating the talent where it can do some good, in the short term. Taking resources from that path will simply make it die faster. If you can get some interest from the Linux community, to develop a new WPS for Linux (IBM might be interested, but I suspect that they would have done it by now, if they were), go for it, but don't count on doing it for OS/2. I think you will find that the Linux community is already divided over how to do such things, and they won't be very interested in adding another path. They too are struggling with the new reality of hand held devices.

1453
Networking / Re: XWLan updates
« on: November 13, 2013, 04:48:49 am »
I am not sure how it can work, although the W500 might use an older method to turn on the radio. In my case, I have a  Lenovo ThinkPad L530, with an Intel Wireless N 2200  device (I think it is very similar to the 5100). I can get the driver to load, with no complaint, and all looks like it should work. However, it works exactly like a wired NIC, with no cable plugged in. The problem appears to be, that I cannot find any way to turn on the radio. With no radio, there is no communication path, and it isn't going to work.

One thing that I have been meaning to do, is put the 2200 into my older Lenovo ThinkPad T510 (which has a realtek wireless device), and see if it will go there, but I suspect that it will have the same problem.

1454
Article Discussions / Re: ecs 2.2
« on: November 13, 2013, 04:34:26 am »
Quote
'm focused on an Open Source OS/2 because we need to grow the community and keep the continuity of the platform. I think that one of the stoppers to make an OS/2 clone is that OS/2 is still working fine today, so nobody wants to touch the things that keep working.

Open source is not that important. I agree that any new work should be open source, but I don't see a problem with using closed source parts, as long as they work. You are partly right, that nobody wants to touch the parts that are working, but another part of that is that there are a number of areas that nobody knows anything about. It would be very difficult to build a TV set, if you don't know anything but carpentry. You would end up with a great cabinet, but could you watch TV shows on it?  Today, it is difficult to get anybody to work on something that might require some knowledge of assembler, simply because nobody does that any more. I also don't see much hope that anybody who is taking a course in computer programming will ever hear that there is a language called assembler, never mind learn how to use it.

Quote
That why we need a long term strategy, we need to make OS/2 accessible to everyone and ensure its life beyond IBM

I think the main problem with that is, that OS/2 has already survived for the "long term". Many good programmers have moved on, simply because they have lost interest. Many users have also moved on, simply because OS/2 (as eCS) simply cannot do what needs to be done. If you start to pull the programmers that are left, off of the life support projects, it will be all over, before the first beta of whatever they decide to work on, becomes available for testing. So, I guess there is a choice to be made. Continue, more or less, as we have been doing, and hope for the best, or start to port the WPS to another platform (some sort of Linux base, I would assume). As you acknowledge, it would be a long term project, but OS/2 is already gasping for breath because there are not enough people working on it, and those who are working on it don't have the time to do anything else. If the WPS is not ported to another platform, there will be nothing left to run it on, by the time it exists. A lot of time, and effort, has already been expended, to make the desktop look better. From what I have seen, so far, it was a wasted effort, with little value. Meanwhile, we can't even connect to the internet, using modern WiFi devices. There will be very few people attracted to eCS without WiFi support. Bluetooth, and WLAN (among other things), are not far behind.

Don't get me wrong, I like your idea, but one must look at reality, and say "good thought", but it isn't going to happen, unless more than one person wins the BIG jackpot, and donates it all to the cause. The only other possibilities would be that IBM would wake up, and take it back, or that Microsoft would wade in and do the job (yeah, okay...). Believing in any of those possibilities would be considered to be delusional, and could get you locked away, in a padded room, for your own protection. Then, there is the migration to portable devices. We can't even get drivers for a lot of the new I/O. In another few years, <speculation> the boxes that we call "desktops", will house the new super computers, and people will be wearing watches that do ten times what today's desktops, cell phones, etc. can do </speculation>. I suspect that the WPS will be just as obsolete as video tape has become. What is left will still work, but nobody will actually want to use it any more. Meanwhile, with careful allocation of resources, we can keep what we have going, for a while. OS/2 has already had a remarkable run, but all good things come to an end, eventually, and the usual cause of their demise, is something better. From what I have seen, I think that Linux has finally matured enough to be usable. In a few more years, it will probably take over, and surpass OS/2 (it has already gone past windows, IMO). It is also the ultimate example of open source, which seems to be something that you want to see.

Meanwhile, I think that Mensys has been doing a reasonable job of continuing the life of the product, even if they don't seem to have much of an idea about quality control, or project management. They have been making the tough decisions (right or wrong), and they seem to be making enough money to cover the costs, even if it isn't enough to do the "big push forward". Most users are along for the ride, and continue to use eCS because it does what they need to have done. When eCS fails to do what is necessary, or when something better comes along, they will be off the train.

1455
Article Discussions / Re: ecs 2.2
« on: November 12, 2013, 07:19:30 pm »
I am not so sure that the WPS is the place to start. The WPS is still working well. Other parts are beginning to fall apart, and if they don't work, the WPS isn't going to be very useful.

The immediate parts, that come to mind (in no particular order) are:
UEFI. This will be a killer, very soon.
Video driver (SNAP has been obtained, and Panorama is working pretty well, but acceleration is missing).
IPv6 (not yet required, but...).
WiFi drivers. (planned, but not yet done).
WLAN drivers.
Bluetooth support.
Firewire support (this was started years ago, but was never finished).
USB 3.0 support.
Support for disks greater than 2 TB.
Take some of the load off of Paul Smedley. He is overloaded by keeping the development tools up to date, he doesn't need to be the one who updates things like CUPS, HPLIP, HPAIO, and a dozen other things that have been sorted out, but are essential to keep eCS viable.

I am sure there are a few hundred other things that need to be updated/fixed, before the WPS comes to the top of the list. Of course, there are developers who know various parts of the system better than other parts, so there is really no fixed order to doing the updates. It doesn't make much sense to have someone, who is a driver specialist, trying to update the WPS, or the other way around. I would note, that most of my list would be drivers. It also doesn't make much sense for 2 driver specialists to be working on the same driver, independently.

Another thing, is that any updates/fixes, need to be tested. Those who can't do the development, can do testing. They can also contribute to those who do the development, to keep them interested.

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