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Messages - JTA

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1
General Discussion / Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« on: March 21, 2025, 05:33:53 pm »
All the solutions I listed are tools in the toolbox ... pull them out and use them, or leave them in the toolbox and run os/2 native on a platform. It's everyone's choice; we can't tell anyone what they can or can't do. Unfortunately, there are little to no os/2 tools in that toolbox, for many reasons that are very resistant to change.

If you want to solve existing problems, start pulling out all the other tools and start using them ...

- We can harness the power of other OS's to do work for us under os/2. The HostOS concept does all the heavy lifting in utilizing full resources of a laptop/desktop, but it doesn't have to be seen if you don't want it to ... boot straight into os/2's desktop vm. It feels native, yet you get at all the things that keep many from wanting to use os/2 natively. That is a powerful tool ...

- the dev uses of multiple vm's are compelling ... many of the resources of powerful desktop/laptops sit idle, but with one vm dev'ing, and another hosting the os/2 desktop, you are running "thrusters on full". There are tools to split the dev load among multiple compilers ... this might be applicable to os/2 compiling. Things I haven't even thought of, but might be possible ...

- there are flat out "no device driver" problem, no "browser" problems, no problems of any kind ... because you booted straight into the os/2 desktop vm, and it all just works.

What might be needed, to prove this concept to others, is the ability to produce a USB LiveCD stick of this entire AToF concept. Boot a machine, and show all of these things running. Linux "live cd" versions abound. One problem I'm working to overcome is the IBM/ArcaOS constraint of "IBM doesn't allow ..." demo licenses and such, and ArcaOS custom-stamps ownership into each os distro. This needs to be resolved, but I can't resolve it myself. So, I have some methods to chase down, and hopefully they'll bear fruit ... in the meantime, it's super easy to build the AToF concept, but perhaps a livecd would be even easier for many.

The point of all of this is that there are options now, and these don't require massive funding, waiting for years for the slightest little thing to change, and so on ... use these options if you want, or choose not to use them. It's all good as far as one person chooses. But, if more can see that there are viable options (more tools in the toolbox), why not try them?

Again, progress on all fronts ...

2
General Discussion / Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« on: March 21, 2025, 12:33:48 am »
I'm not sure how much it matters if the "idea" of running os/2 in vm's has been in existence since 2000 ... what comes together right now, in just the past few years, is lots of technology ... new/improved:
- hardware: faster cpu's with more cores, lots of ram, super-fast ssd's ... all on one inexpensive machine
- software: virtualization, winflector

If you use os/2, and want to do more with it than running native, more tools in the toolbox gives us options right now. We can do things that weren't available back then:
- virtualbox lets us run multiple vm's on one machine, introducing new ways to use os/2
- winflector lets us run any 64-bit app right now inside of os/2, vs waiting for that browser to come along, or waiting for that port to finish.
- existing os/2 developers can use these new tools in the toolbox to speed up os/2 development right now
- new os/2 developers aren't running constrained on one box, trying to shoehorn everything into 4gb ram on a 32gb machine ... they can expand immediately into more vm's doing more work for them. If we give them a highly tuned dev vm, they can run two or more, alongside their os/2 desktop vm, compiling in some and testing in others.

And, yes ... consumers (all the rest of us) can explore os/2 among many other os's, which shouldn't necessarily kill off os/2. It might expand the pool of folks who find, play with, and come to love os/2 anew:
- os/2 runs perfectly in a vm, yet runs with all kinds of problems natively ... run it in a vm, and you are instantly in business, alongside all your other efforts, on one machine
- explore all the old os/2 (or dos, or win) apps, and perhaps find new ways to bring them back into production ... if it runs in a vm, it's no longer tied to any new hardware/software that forces many os's or apps into retirement.

I respect folks that want to run native ... please do so, if that is your thing.

But adding more tools to the toolbox shouldn't be a bad thing, because who knows what the next generation of os/2 users will do with them. New users might become new developers.

os/2 might be dead (to me) if I hadn't played with it again in the past few years, discovered new tools to resolve all the current issues in this forum, and gotten it to the point where I have time now to explore all the new things I can now do with it, vs fighting it to resolve all its native problems.

progress should be happening on all fronts ...

3
General Discussion / Re: Brainstorm: What is Next with OS/2 ?
« on: March 20, 2025, 05:00:53 pm »
Always interesting to see how folks solve, or don't solve, technical issues at the OS level. If you can come at the problems with an open mind to all possibilities, the range of solutions also opens up.

If you run OS/2 (ArcaOS) directly on hardware, then yes there will be lots of issues, notwithstanding AN's efforts to work through them. You'll get the 4GB ram limit, no selection of modern browsers or other 64-bit software, and so on.

If you run OS/2 in one (or more!) VM's with a 64-bit HostOS (win, linux) controlling the hardware, then you get all the resources of the 64-bit hardware and 64-bit modern OS delivered to OS/2. You'll get 64-bit apps (via Winflector), NTFS or Linux FS's as the filesystem, no driver issues to speak of, and modern OS/2 (ArcaOS) running at near native speed.

Run two VM's, and you start to move past native OS/2 4GB ram limitations with workarounds (two os/2's in vm's offering up to 8GB ram to native os/2 apps).

Modern hardware is inexpensive, and gives us 64-bit cpu's, 16/32/64gb of ram and ssd's. With Virtualbox or similar, you get at all of that. Once the HostOS is in place, you can spend more time doing things with os/2, versus fighting problems, or worse, giving up on os/2.

Spread this message to new developers, and you'll start to build up that core again of development interest. Think of the possibilities of:
- 1 os/2 vm as your daily driver, serving up any 64-bit app, or even local AI, via Winflector
- 1 or 2 other os/2 vm's dedicated to the os/2 compiler environment
- other vm's hosting specific job engines or other specializations
- HostOS providing security, backup, and more to all vm's
- all running on 1 inexpensive laptop/desktop

How hard is this to do? 1.) Grab a spare machine. 2.) Install Windows Pro (or any Linux). 3.) Install Virtualbox and Winflector. 4.) Install ArcaOS in one or more vm's ...

... and get to work doing whatever you want in OS/2, vs fighting problems in OS/2.

Full details are over in the virtualization sub-forum, but really aren't necessary if you are comfortable with the above 4 steps.



4
Perhaps you can dig deep into the vbox manual for the version of vbox you want to run on mac.

Inside the release of the docs for your version, there is specifically Chp 04, and additionally other chapters and pointers to all the release notes, changes & limitations. Perhaps all of this will show something you'll recognize for why things changed under mac & vbox versions you ended up on.

Might even be worthwhile to read the VMware docs on the same subjects, to see why a VM might run better on VMware.

I still don't understand exactly what piece of perf dropped on your vbox setup ... is it specifically cpu, ram, disk, network? Vbox windowing (of the OS/2 guest)? Seamless mouse support between vbox and guest? If reading the docs didn't catch the new limitation for you, then more utility testing of each piece inside AOS might narrow things down to the culprit.

Generically, you say it is unusable or similar, but you might have to dig deeper to see what piece is giving you the most grief. With that identified, perhaps the vbox docs for 7.1.6 will show you why it changed, or will point you at a specific VM setting that helps, until they sort out something better with a future release.

For myself, I must have guest additions (GA tools) for OS/2, for many of my OS/2 efforts & projects, and that pretty much rules out VMware or other virt platforms, leaving only Virtualbox for me. Specifically, I must have the Host/VM shared folders functionality.

However, from all I'm reading and catching up on (what additional features are supported by installing GA tools, what features are native w/o the guest tools, etc.), if you really don't need the GA tools, perhaps you can switch to VMware. As Mac is Linux these days, perhaps other virt platforms can be used?

Hope this helps ...

5
The Warpstock site definitely feels old ... I clicked around my earlier link (my fault), and feel sure I'm hitting the real front page. It still feels "old", because:
  - It shows the 2024 warpstock event ... perhaps that's what folks want to show? Not the future event for 2025, but leave the older event up until something changes, even thought that event is over?
  - dozens of other links/entries show nothing but old dates ... this contributes to the feeling that nothing is ever updated on Warpstock.
  - if I travel a link to get to something, I things like "the last entry was 2007" or such. Perhaps take off these "old" dates altogether?

I was able to remote into the 2024 event, but per another thread I have on this forum (right below this thread), there were all kinds of issues, and it left me feeling like I couldn't participate as well as if I were there (and I couldn't attend the 2024 site). It was free, but I'd gladly pay to get something better ...

I still have no idea how "the process" will work to plan for 2025 ... there is no calendar that I can easily find, so I have no idea how, or if, I can participate in that. Meetings may happen, or will happen, but it's a black hole at the moment, almost 6 months in. After 6 months, shouldn't there be something, somewhere? And more specifically, something about all the presentations that are going to happen in 2025? To build momentum?

I posted here on os2world, because this site feels newer ... things are happening, and I thought it would get more eyeballs on it. The "forum" pieces of Warpstock seem old ... the last "event" entries were from 2022.

Perhaps OS/2 itself is fading not because it is old, but because there's too much old stuff about it laying around (Warpstock is one such site ... user groups are another). There just isn't a good effort underway (that I can see) to sell all the new possibilities of OS/2 ...

I love OS/2 ... I presented in 2023, so I love the idea of Warpstock (and it's still a cool name) ... just can't seem to see the fireworks around OS/2.

6
As in, I can't find any activity on the Warpstock site about 2025, and I'd like to see more activity and thought going into the next one. Issues, actions, etc.:

1. update the Warpstock site ... it shows Warpstock 2023 still !?!?
  - put something up about 2025
  - put something up about the "process" (board has various open or closed meetings, etc.)
  - is it just me, or is the Warpstock site slow (as in molasses slow)?

2. call for ideas, early, and often
  - start to flesh out the sessions/tracks sooner, to build "sales" and enthusiasm

3. have a remote-in capability, just as valuable as in-person (I'd pay for this)

4. how can we help?

And so on ...

7
"Despite my earlier prediction that VMWare was the way to go, there also seems to be a network issue with VMWare on macOS 15 Sequoia (the latest macOS). After about 5 minutes the network in ArcaOS drops then might come back 15 mins or so later, then goes again. It's not an IP or MAC address clash which was my first thought. This does not happen with macOS 14 Sonoma, the previous version - it seems rock solid."

Hmmm ... shouldn't have worked at all, as the guest OS is AOS, and there are no "full" guest additions for VMware as the Type-2 hypervisor. AOS will run in a VMware vm, but unless AN is now providing a set of VMware guest additions in their AOS, it can't comm with the outside world. In other words:
1. have a host OS (windows, linux, max)
2. install a Type-2 hypervisor (VMware, Virtualbox)
3. create a VM (and give it a network conn type, utilizing the host's ethernet adapter)
4a. install a guest OS into the vm
  - on VMware, the only supported guests are those which have VMware guest additions, typically these are modern Win or Linux OS's
4b. inside the guest OS, install a "full" set of Guest additions (this is where it gets tricky):
  - Windows OS (both VMware & Vbox have full guest additions to install; this turns on networking)
  - Linux (both VMware & Vbox have full guest additions to install; this turns on networking)
  - AOS:
    - Vbox has some older versions of a full set of guest additions (and Valery has a version)
    - AOS has something in it that turns on, when in a vbox vm

So, even though a VMware vm has a network adapter defined in it's vm settings, this doesn't come to life all the way in the Guest OS until a full set of supported guest additions gets installed into the vm; there aren't any for AOS for VMware, although the find of a Github drivers set, with mouse and clipboard support is interesting ... this find gives us some partial support.

This limits AOS to vbox, if you want full "guest additions" support. Hyper-V is a Type-1 hypervisor, but the same issues apply ... there is no full guest additions support for os/2 (obviously, as MS could care less) in Hyper-V.

If you think you got full network support, or full video support, etc., out of your AOS under VMware, then that warrants some further exploring (as to how you got it to work).

Hope this clears things up ... please advise if yours (or anyone's) experiences are different ...

8
My AOS 5.1 works perfectly fine in Virtualbox 7.0.14, although I run everything on a Windows host OS.

For VMware, there are most likely no better (full) "guest additions" for OS/2 or AN, as what you've got are partial, and VMware dropped their full os/2 guest additions years ago. I'd think that VMware is a dead end for anything except a "pure" os/2 in a vm that doesn't interact with the host or the outside world.

If you can go back to Virtualbox, and as it does have both a full "guest additions" and AOS support, I would suggest:

1. get to the latest 7.x virtualbox out there (for your mac)
2. create a new VM (with whatever tweaks in the vm settings that folks suggest)
3. install a new AOS 5.1 (or whatever your latest AOS version is ... the guest additions are built-in)

Doing all this new stuff cuts out any "upgrade" issues that might be present with the old stuff.

This should also allow AOS to turn on their vbox full "guest additions" stuff once the initial AN OS install is complete. IIRC, nothing else needed to be done ... we don't install any Vbox older Guest Additions, or Valery's (both are "old"). Your AOS build with AN's guest additions should interact with the Host OS and the outside world just fine, per that AN support page Martin pointed out.

Hope this helps ...

9
Comments, Suggestions & Questions / Re: OS/2 Licensing
« on: December 30, 2024, 06:49:21 pm »
OS/2 (ms & ibm versions) are, for me, Whack-A-MOS's (Whack-A-Mole OS's) ...

They are copyright and enjoined on paper & shrinkwrap, and by copyright law, but because their copyright owners have mostly abandoned them, it's now moot. Add to that the Internet distribution models of today (archive.org, many others), they can no longer be "contained" (restricted). Finally, virtualization capabilities of modern hardware and software allow anything, from any time, to be explored & tested. Availability is not containable for pretty much any piece of software from any time period, unlike the old days.

This means these OS's will pop their heads up in many configurations and uses, and it would be up to MS, IBM, and others to decide if that head, as popped up, warrants "whacking" (egregious use warrants whacking by cease&desist, lawsuits, etc.; casual use does not, at this time).

ArcaOS is an exception, as it is a modern OS, licensed and enforced in such a way that you know who is redistributing it (illegally), and the owners (AN) can go after it if any such illegal use head pops up. It is also small enough that it has escaped modern developer attention (hacking it's distribution model in any form).

My own use case? "I see dead OS's ..."
... and then I bring them back to life (with virtualization software), and put them to use again! There are infinite possibilities here. This ranges from DOS and earlier, to OS/2 and later, Win and later, and many others ... I even have a mainframe running in virtualization (this is a little trickier to get it to do something useful for me, but I'm working on it).

So, if you can get at an OS (or any piece of software), make use of it ... just don't let your head rise up too far to where it gets noticed, and position yourself for whacking ...

10
General Discussion / Re: OS/2 - ArcaOS Santa's List for 2025
« on: December 06, 2024, 03:21:07 pm »
Winflector, while a paid application, has something of immense value to us all ... they offer a free 1-user server license, and the clients are free. No time limits ...

Thus, on my AToF solution (everything running on one desktop/laptop), you are delivering 64-bit apps to your OS/2 vm, all for free. Or, you can put the server somewhere else on your home network, and deliver 64-bit apps to your dedicated OS/2 machine. That's a lot of value for the OS/2 community, which I suspect is much bigger than a few users ...

Commercially, we all guesstimate that this user pool is quite large, from hints dropped, and focus of ArcaNoae ... I'm beating the drum as loudly as I can, at the past two Warpstocks and elsewhere, and at last Warpstock, AN did mention that they should look further into Winflector. If ArcaNoae talks to Winflector, there could be lots of symmetry in that relationship ... plus, AN has the true numbers for OS/2, commercial and non-commercial.

This would really help the community out, while we try to get more open-source apps converted to native.

Imagine a new OS/2 developer sitting at a laptop (running in AToF fashion) & pounding out code ... developing on an ArcaOS desktop that runs any 64-bit (or other) app he or she would ever need, via Winflector.

11
General Discussion / Re: OS/2 - ArcaOS Santa's List for 2025
« on: December 05, 2024, 07:09:32 pm »
Sure, it's closed source ... Winflector folks own it, but note that they are producing clients for other platforms: win, linux, RPi, mac, android, html5 ...

We just need folks (ArcaOS, Paul S. ... you?) to help them get the client ported to OS/2 & ArcaOS ... I just don't know what that help looks like, but ArcaNoae, Paul, and hopefully others can work with them and possibly make it happen?

The benefits would be huge ... any 64-bit app, "running" under OS/2 in a native PM desktop window ...

12
General Discussion / Re: OS/2 - ArcaOS Santa's List for 2025
« on: December 05, 2024, 06:57:02 pm »
Discussed a few times, and brought it up again (remotely at 2024 warpstock), but please add an entry for Winflector into the software section:

winflector.com

Goal would be to get the Winflector folks to produce a native 32-bit OS/2 client, by porting their linux 32-bit client over to OS/2. I'm trying to facilitate ArcaNoae, Winflector (and possibly Paul S.) to get together and get this client porting effort done. If it happens, then we have pretty much any 64-bit app available to us under OS/2, ArcaOS, in a native OS/2 window frame.

Currently, Winflector works with OS/2 via their HTML5 client ... I show that this works in my AToF post:

https://www.os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,3502.0.html

... and here is the Winflector "request" for native winflector 32-bit client for OS/2:

https://www.winflector.com/store/forum/topic-view/id/610

Currently, Winflector's HTML5 client relies on older browsers for OS/2, which tend to not be developed much beyond their last version ever released. This HTML5 support works, and we can get 64-bit apps into OS/2, but ... a native OS/2 client would be so much better.

Thanks!

13
Hardware / Re: Observations on intel vs AMD
« on: November 10, 2024, 03:17:48 pm »
AME is a key component of my virtualization processes over in the virt sub-forum ... it makes for a perfect, stripped down HostOS, that then runs any other os in a VM, such as ArcaOS. Gets me x64 apps into ArcaOS.

  os2world.com/forum/index.php/topic,3498.0.html

I've been running AME for nearly two years now, and there hasn't been any problems, security issues, or such that I can find. On the other hand, there also have not been any data leaks going the other way back to MS, nor have I had to put up with their crud (changes, advertising, etc.) coming my way.

I can report that AME is good stuff ... saves me *hours* of trying to strip out by hand all of MS' garbage in their os's ...

14
OK ... to recap, on the 1st day of Warpstock:

- video/audio streaming ... via youtube link Martin will put up
- q's or other input to warpstock sessions ... use libera IRC link, & Martin will relay into session

I did get into libera without creating an online account, and that's good. I already have a Warpstock (website) account, and wasn't looking to create more to get feeds into Warpstock 2024.

I don't know what others think, but I could envision paying something (up to full registration fee?) to get a more unified single tool approach to video/audio/remote-user-input. It could perhaps be a way for Warpstock to bring in the remote folks (and get them up to parity with being there?), and a way for others and I to officially support the Warpstock conferences, if we can't actually get there in person in a given year ...

Thanks, Martin!


15
IRC ... seems to require "yet another logon account and login process".

Is it possible email questions/comments to someone at the event, or post q's and comments to this forum in a special thread and have them checked by someone at the event?

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