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WebSite Information => Article Discussions => Topic started by: Martin Iturbide on October 01, 2019, 10:56:30 pm

Title: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Martin Iturbide on October 01, 2019, 10:56:30 pm
Here it is an interesting article:

Quote
Today, however, Microsoft announced that it is supporting the addition of exFAT to the Linux kernel and publishing the technical specifications for exFAT.

Quote
In addition to wanting it to become part of the Linux kernel, Microsoft also says that it hopes that the exFAT specs will become part of the Open Invention Network’s  Linux definition.

If this is actually true and not a trick, it may solve our issue on why the FAT32 project got forked by Arca Noae. Since the FAT32 project (Netlabs / Valerius) included exFAT support, AN didn't want any reference to it because of the risk on getting sue by Microsoft.  Now it may change, let's see how things evolve on this subject.

References
- https://techcrunch.com/2019/08/28/microsoft-wants-to-bring-exfat-to-the-linux-kernel/
- https://venturebeat.com/2019/08/28/microsoft-wants-its-exfat-file-system-in-the-linux-kernel/
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/fileio/exfat-specification

Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Paul Smedley on October 02, 2019, 11:33:45 am
Should be part of linux kernel 5.4 - due before the end of the year... https://itsfoss.com/linux-kernel-5-4/
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: ivan on October 02, 2019, 03:07:25 pm
I can't help wondering if this is the 'extend' phase of Microsoft's takeover strategy that always ends with 'extinguish'.  After all Ms has been very well known for its 'Embrace', 'Extend', 'Extinguish' strategy although the US DoJ called it 'embrace, extend, exterminate'.
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Lars on October 02, 2019, 03:31:16 pm
Here it is an interesting article:

Quote
Today, however, Microsoft announced that it is supporting the addition of exFAT to the Linux kernel and publishing the technical specifications for exFAT.

Quote
In addition to wanting it to become part of the Linux kernel, Microsoft also says that it hopes that the exFAT specs will become part of the Open Invention Network’s  Linux definition.

If this is actually true and not a trick, it may solve our issue on why the FAT32 project got forked by Arca Noae. Since the FAT32 project (Netlabs / Valerius) included exFAT support, AN didn't want any reference to it because of the risk on getting sue by Microsoft.  Now it may change, let's see how things evolve on this subject.

References
- https://techcrunch.com/2019/08/28/microsoft-wants-to-bring-exfat-to-the-linux-kernel/
- https://venturebeat.com/2019/08/28/microsoft-wants-its-exfat-file-system-in-the-linux-kernel/
- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/fileio/exfat-specification

So how is this to be interpreted:
https://venturebeat.com/2019/08/28/microsoft-wants-its-exfat-file-system-in-the-linux-kernel/

</quote>
To be clear, Microsoft isn’t open-sourcing exFAT — but it is making sure anyone building with Linux can use it. “It’s important to us that the Linux community can make use of exFAT included in the Linux kernel with confidence.”
<quote>
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Martin Iturbide on October 02, 2019, 04:32:27 pm
Hi

I understand that MS can even open source exFAT source code under GNU GPL V2, but can still reserve the right of the patent to sue everyone that uses it. But it will depend on the conditions on how they give away the specification to the Linux community. If the conditions apply to every open source software, it will be good for us.

According to the article post by Lars it only applies to the Linux Kernel, which means BSD, OS/2 and other OSes not based in the Linux kernel may have a risk of getting sue. (and there is always a risk)

Here it is ZDNet article: https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-readies-exfat-patents-for-linux-and-open-source/

I would really like to check the conditions of the "Open Invention Network (OIN)". Maybe if AN will turn a member of the OIN will reduce the risk of getting sue. But I don't like that the OIN page says "OIN's mission is to enable Linux", I would prefer to "enable open source"  ;D

Regards
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Martin Iturbide on October 02, 2019, 05:12:04 pm
From: https://www.openinventionnetwork.com/about-us/fact-sheet/

Quote
MISSION:

We enable freedom of action for Open Invention Network community members and users of Linux/OSS-based technology through our patent non-aggression cross-license in the Linux System, which defines the commitment.

We will continue to grow our worldwide membership and the Linux System over time, thereby strengthening our patent non-aggression coverage through the power of the network effect.

???
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: ivan on October 02, 2019, 05:57:57 pm
It would appear that Ms is trying to take over Linux.  It has started by incorporating part of Linux into Win 10 and once everyone is happy about that the trouble will begin - don't forget that Ms claims that both Linux and Android uses some of its patented material and is extorting $$$ from Android phone manufacturers on the strength of that.

I don't see Microsoft changing its ways any time soon especially when people are turning away from Win 10 in favour of Linux.
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Martin Iturbide on October 02, 2019, 06:48:52 pm
Hi

On the other side, it seems interesting joining the OIN. (You don't need to have any patents)
https://www.openinventionnetwork.com/joining-oin/

Specially for all the patents that the organization has.

Regards
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Lars on October 03, 2019, 09:05:31 am
This also centers around Linux but nothing else.
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Martin Iturbide on March 30, 2020, 09:15:22 pm

Here is a news post about it:

The exFAT filesystem is coming to Linux—Paragon software’s not happy about it
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/03/the-exfat-filesystem-is-coming-to-linux-paragon-softwares-not-happy-about-it (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/03/the-exfat-filesystem-is-coming-to-linux-paragon-softwares-not-happy-about-it)

There are no real examples of companies suing companies, only fear.

Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Sean Casey on March 31, 2020, 01:32:38 am
I'm with Ivan.  MS has a long history of unethical and hostile business practices. 

I can't forget Microsoft providing $40+ million to SCO at the time SCO was trying to extort money from companies that used Linux.   Had IBM not embraced Linux, I'm sure Microsoft would have directly attacked the legitimacy of Linux rather than using SCO as a proxy. 
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Rita Richason on May 28, 2020, 05:53:13 pm
So, SD card format will be available for linux (after it has been available for Mac for decades).
How is this a bad thing? Paragon is an old company  that is used to getting paid for their projects. Paying developers is an old custom. Of course they are a little concerned. Historically, they have been a DOS company.

I think there is a lot of alarm over nothing and the article has no real information. A lot of hate for Microsoft.
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Rita Richason on May 28, 2020, 08:14:11 pm
don't forget that Ms claims that both Linux and Android uses some of its patented material and is extorting $$$ from Android phone manufacturers on the strength of that.

Any proof of this? Oracle owns Java, not Microsoft. Windows Phone/Surface apps are programmed in C# and not Java. I don't think MS would want to waste their time with Android or Oracle.
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: ivan on May 28, 2020, 08:37:08 pm
Simple just put microsoft patents in android into the duckduckgo search box and you end up with such things as
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2015/11/01/microsoft-android-patent-income/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2015/11/01/microsoft-android-patent-income/)
and
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/chinese-govt-reveals-microsofts-secret-list-of-android-killer-patents/ (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/chinese-govt-reveals-microsofts-secret-list-of-android-killer-patents/)
and so on.

If you had been following the SCO v Linux case a few years ago and watched when MS stepped in you would/should be well aware of this.
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Martin Iturbide on May 28, 2020, 08:47:24 pm
Hi Rich

Maybe I can agreed that Microsoft has changed from his 90's "Art of War" salesman training, but it is important to don't go blindly trusting them.

don't forget that Ms claims that both Linux and Android uses some of its patented material and is extorting $$$ from Android phone manufacturers on the strength of that.

Any proof of this? Oracle owns Java, not Microsoft. Windows Phone/Surface apps are programmed in C# and not Java. I don't think MS would want to waste their time with Android or Oracle.

Microsoft did a suing rampage against Android vendors on 2011. (sample (https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-sues-barnes-noble-over-android-devices/)). Microsoft claimed that some Linux components on Android violated their software patents.
Quote
(U.S. Patent No 5,778,372 (the “’372 patent”), U.S. Patent No. 6,339,780 (the “’780 patent”), U.S. Patent No. 5,889,522 (the “’522 patent”), U.S. Patent No. 6,891,551 (the “’551 patent”), and U.S. Patent  No. 6,957,233 (the “’233 patent”)
. That was the moment Microsoft took off the patent nukes to try slow down Linux and Android.

It was a cheap move, because instead of going for the Android maker (Google), Microsoft went over to the companies bundling Android with their hardware. Google was too big for them and have enough money to go to trial and invalidate MS patents. Of course that MS did not wanted to go to trial, only squeeze the most money they can negotiating with a settle up.

ExFAT
Microsoft owns the patents of that. There is a risk of getting sue using exFAT on your device if your company starts making money even if they say it is available for free. Remember that sometimes it does not mean that Microsoft wants to take you to court for you to confess your sins, they will sue you to get a settlement and money, that will possible be cheaper to you (and yrou company) than going to court

There is the "openinventionnetwork group that will supposedly protect you against patent claims. But we have to remember that if some member of that group will feel it will make more money suing you, they will do it. Even that I recommend DFSee and Arca Noae joining that group, it will not be a warranty that you will not get sued for software patents.

This is my personal opinion, but people that runs companies are free to take the risks they want to.

Regards
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Martin Iturbide on May 28, 2020, 08:50:27 pm
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2015/11/01/microsoft-android-patent-income/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewanspence/2015/11/01/microsoft-android-patent-income/)
WOW, Six Billion Dollars !!!

That 2011 Android/Linux settlements really paid off. It was a good play, if MS would sue a big one that can fight in court and invalidate all those patents, there will be no "Six Billion Dollars " in revenue today  :D

Regards
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Rita Richason on May 28, 2020, 09:43:18 pm

but it is important to don't go blindly trusting them.
ExFAT
they will sue you to get a settlement and money, that will possible be cheaper to you (and yrou company) than going to court

This is my personal opinion, but people that runs companies are free to take the risks they want to.

Regards


Yes, those are patent royalties. And those are perceptions. Microsoft (and Foxconn) made some IP and copyrighted it. If the standard is open, it benefits everyone, same as the new XML formats did. You're assuming the nature of the new license before even seeing it.

I was hoping you had some substantive information (like some actual code or information cited.  The refences you gave regard the lawsuit itself and not the actual use/misuse of the intellectual property). The lawsuit/royalties have nothing to do with exFAT or Paragon.

Companies protect their patents. That's why they register them: to prevent going out of business. But that has nothing to do with that article. exFAT standards will be open. They cannot be a source of lawsuit if they are opened. If anything it will cost thousands of people their jobs. I say this is good news whoever announces it.
You have a prejudice against a particular company and that prejudice informs all of your speech and reasoning. 
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Roderick Klein on May 28, 2020, 10:12:56 pm
I can't help wondering if this is the 'extend' phase of Microsoft's takeover strategy that always ends with 'extinguish'.  After all Ms has been very well known for its 'Embrace', 'Extend', 'Extinguish' strategy although the US DoJ called it 'embrace, extend, exterminate'.

https://www.howtogeek.com/183766/why-microsoft-makes-5-to-15-from-every-android-device-sold/

Microsoft followed the IBM model, kind off. They make money by putting the I.P. in open source software and charge for it. it seems.
I do not know if that is the case with exfat as well. Open source, they need to make money some how. They are not including exfat just the benefit of mankind...

Roderick

Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Martin Iturbide on May 28, 2020, 10:55:03 pm
Rich.

I made a long answer to reply you all the times the Microsoft played dirty in the past.... but I closed the windows by accident and got erased. So maybe it is fate that does not want me to hold a grudge on Microsoft.

I used to dislike Microsoft in the past, but I had my revenge  ;D Today I just mistrust Microsoft like any other company at the same level. Any company like Microsoft will sue you when they know they can earn  money from it.

Maybe I can suggest Arca Noae to join the Open Invention Network, and later include exFAT on the FAT32 driver. If Microsoft sues Arca Noae it will look very bad on the press, but Arca Noae will have to publish the suing intention (letter) to the public for us to known about it. The risk will be that Microsoft destroys Arca Noae and we will no longer have ArcaOS, and in a few months everyone will forgot about that Microsoft nasty move. Is the risk worthy?

On other side I think that Valery is more safe as an individual that coded exFAT inside FAT32 driver.  So, if someone wants exFAT get it from Netlabs. And if something needs to be improved on Valerys exFAT, let's try to raise money to motivate him to improve it.

Regards
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Joop on May 28, 2020, 11:22:50 pm
There might be something else going on. When Bayer introduced "asperine" they couldn't know that it would became so popular. Some other companies made the medicine and called it the same way. Outcome they see each other in court. But the outcome for Bayer was something they had not expected. They lost there rights on the brand name "asperine" because everyone did know what it was and used it. In other words it became too popular. In short, their success became their grave in some way. After that, the brand name soon was replaced by other brand names and everyone forgot what "asperine" was. They got better alternatives.
Now, what has this to do with exFat? The problem for Microsoft is the same. It becomes too popular and its the only system found on mobile memory cards, sticks, hard drives, camera' s, mobile devices and so on. And this popularity can become a risk for Microsoft. The problem is that they still can ask money for Windows, just because there is Linux, OS/2, DOS and some others. So, Windows is popular, but there are alternatives. This is not the case with exFat. And this is about the same case as with "asperine". So, before damage will occur, they could give some away. If they don't do that and go on the way they did, then they could end up in court with possible much more loss then only exFat. Remind, Microsoft is nothing about software but all about rights, that's how they build Microsoft.
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Rita Richason on May 28, 2020, 11:27:18 pm
Rich.
 Any company like Microsoft will sue you when they know they can earn  money from it.

Indeed. You are right.

I will be really happy to see exFAT come to OS/2 if possible
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Martin Iturbide on May 28, 2020, 11:28:35 pm
Microsoft followed the IBM model, kind off. ...

But I think that Microsoft on the late 90's was worst. IBM was presumptuous and if you didn't want to do anything with IBM they will tell you to get screw and leave you alone. Microsoft made the same thing, but instead of leaving you alone they will help to screw you.

It was on their salesman training slide. (Reference - Page 30 (http://web.archive.org/web/20120829013937/http://techrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/comes-3096.pdf))

Ohh the memories, I love to talk for hours about these things from the past.


Regards

Update: Microsoft tech evangelist who called developers 'pawns' apologizes  (https://www.computerworld.com/article/2549176/microsoft-tech-evangelist-who-called-developers--pawns--apologizes.html) (Jan 10, 2007)
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Rita Richason on May 28, 2020, 11:40:30 pm
names and everyone forgot what "asperine" was. They got better alternatives.

I was just Xeroxing some papers when You posted.  :D  :D  I think Bayer is still quite wealthy through other means but this is a brilliant point.
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Dave Yeo on May 29, 2020, 02:57:41 am
Aspirin is still trademarked here in Canada. Actually according to this, https://www.inta.org/INTABulletin/Pages/ASPIRINBrandorAspirinTabletsAvoidingtheGenericideHeadacheintheUnitedStates.aspx (https://www.inta.org/INTABulletin/Pages/ASPIRINBrandorAspirinTabletsAvoidingtheGenericideHeadacheintheUnitedStates.aspx) it is still trademarked in most of the world. Seems the trademark was lost in WWI. The UK voided the trademark to allow companies to make aspirin and the USA used the "Trading With the Enemy" act to confiscate and auction off Bayer's property. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_aspirin#World_War_I_and_Bayer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_aspirin#World_War_I_and_Bayer)

Myself, I do not trust Microsoft and when it was first announced about including exFat in Linux, it was really unclear if the exception to the patents covers more then Linux. I haven't been following too  closely but as far as I know, this is still true in the sense that Arca Noae won't want to gamble on it. At that, they haven't even added MP3 support out of being cautious I believe.
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Bill Sorenson on June 01, 2020, 05:00:58 pm
My understanding of the way this works is that Microsoft is providing the patents to the Open Invention Network, such that Linux users using the driver in Linux would be allowed to use exFAT royalty free, and that would be legally enforceable such that Microsoft would not be able to take action against Linux users or companies developing Linux kernel code. I do not think that would apply to the same patents covering software deployed in a closed source, non-Linux operating system. Arca Noae would likely still need to get a patent license from Microsoft or a letter from Microsoft lawyers indicating that it is OK to port the open source driver in Linux to Arca OS and expect the same treatment from Microsoft under the OIN patent grant. (Which seems unlikely to me but not impossible).
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Martin Iturbide on June 01, 2020, 09:47:02 pm
Hi

I had doubts about the Open Invention Network. The terms of the membership (https://www.openinventionnetwork.com/joining-oin/oin-license-agreement/) say they grants members royalty free license with respect only to the "Linux System". 

Here is the definition (https://www.openinventionnetwork.com/joining-oin/linux-system/):
Quote
Linux Kernel” shall mean the software package(s) identified as “kernel” in the Linux Environment Component.

Linux Environment Component” shall mean any of the software packages whose released source code shall be identified on the OIN website, including bug fixes and error corrections thereto, or a Predecessor Release or Successor Release of any of such packages.

Linux System” shall mean a Linux Environment Component or any combination of such components to the extent each such component is (i) generally available under an Open Source License or in the public domain (and the source code for such component is generally available) and (ii) Distributed with, or for use with, the Linux Kernel (or is the Linux Kernel).

This last part is the one that kills me.... and (ii) Distributed with, or for use with, the Linux Kernel (or is the Linux Kernel). That last part is kind of a screw up for us.

I guess this means for example. If DFSee joins the OIN, he is protected against patents attacks for exFAT use in the Linux OS, but the OIN will be useless or play a blind if he gets sue for DFSee for OS/2, Windows or any non-Linux kernel OS.

Any thoughts?

Regards
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Dave Yeo on June 02, 2020, 04:01:50 am
What I don't understand is why is the Linux community going along with this? It doesn't seem GPL friendly if you can use a part of the kernel like we do with Alsa and get sued for it.
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: ivan on June 02, 2020, 07:34:43 am
Dave, like you I don't understand the 'why' but I assume it has something to do with MS adding parts of Linux to windows - the typical MS 'Embrace, Extend, Extinguish' strategy.
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Mathias on July 01, 2020, 10:13:05 am
Also a possibility: Industries widely use linux in consumer products, like car entertainment systems and the like. If you happen to plug a USB stick into them, using exfat, you wouldn't be able to read the stick.
So, could be, there is an industry demand for exfat support in the linux kernel.

And of course Microsoft wants the world to use the only correct operating system... their own... to satisfy all their computing needs.
Let's continue with the above example: GuyX buys an USB stick at the next store (preformatted with exfat), put that stick in his Windows machine, loads lots of songs onto that.. and finally in the car, the entertainment system (linux) cannot read the damn stick..

Googling (or duckduckgo'in) around he finds that exfat is the culprit and the damn MS operating system "does not work with my radio".
(While instead the majaority of linux users would simply reformat to fat32, the Windows guy goes through a lot of hassles until he finally (or never) finds a solution.

So.. to make the Windows experience as smooth as possible, there is indeed a demand to support any major MS file system in the linux kernel. Makes sense for them.
Title: Re: Microsoft wants its exFAT file system in the Linux kernel
Post by: Andi B. on July 01, 2020, 12:26:42 pm
Quote
loads lots of songs onto that.. and finally in the car, the entertainment system (linux) cannot read the damn stick..

Googling (or duckduckgo'in) around he finds that exfat is the culprit and the damn MS operating system "does not work with my radio".

I would love to see a car manufacturer to solve this the MS way. When inserting an EXFAT stick - reformat automatically to something else :-)