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Messages - Doug Clark

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Setup & Installation / Re: Install - screen goes blank when pmshell starts
« on: February 08, 2024, 06:47:33 am »
You are booting UEFI using CSM base video drivers:
This turned out to be the magic info I needed. 

and I boot CSM then SNAP works correctly and I don't get the weird triangles  durning boot.

and I boot UEFI I also don't get the weird triangles but DOS sessions do not work.

I have given up booting directly, CSM mode, to AOS.  I have to press F11 on startup and select the drive from the menu.

I did try reFind (eEFInd), and used SCANFOR and UEFI_DEEP_LEGACY_SCAN options in refind.conf.  reFind will find the hard drive and will boot to it in CSM mode, but it requires an additional boot.  The sequence is :
1)  initial boot goes to reFind menu
2) on reFind menu select hard drive, press enter
3)  refind reboots the machine and this reboot goes directly into the drive I selected.

So I am pleased and impressed that reFind will boot to a drive in CSM mode, which its documentation says it won't do.
But since that requires an additional reboot (albeit automated), what's the point.

The good news is once I am in AOS and reboot the enhanced shutdown dialog lists the boot volume and selecting that allows a reboot to go directly into AOS.
So I am stuck with F11 on initial boot and reset.  Still worth it to get SNAP working.

Thanks again everyone for your help and suggestions.  I really appreciate it.

Correction - turns out I can boot directly to a MBR disk in CSM mode on initial boot.  Just had to move the hard drive to a different SATA socket (lower SATA number, i.e. from SATA 7 to SATA 1).  This then allows the drive to appear as an available drive in the boot priority list.  Putting it as the first drive in the priority list has it booting correctly.
[end edit modify]

Setup & Installation / Re: Install - screen goes blank when pmshell starts
« on: February 03, 2024, 12:55:17 am »
Afterthought... you say you installed AirBoot on the NVME. Did you _really_ reformat the drive as MBR? Argggh...

Naahh - it was always formatted MBR.  I figured life was complex enough without adding GPT to the mix.

 I used MiniLVM - Boot Menu - Remove to remove the UEFI boot "manager" and then Boot Menu - Install and selected AirBoot.  However the mouse doesn't work when booting through AirBoot, so I went back to MiniLVM to remove AirBoot and create the ESP partition and realized it was still there - the MiniLVM remove option doesn't actually delete the partition.

You keep making it worse for yourself.

With this experience I think I am going to adopt that as my motto.  I know my wife would agree.

You know this UEFI, UEFI/CSM  - boot stuff may not be rocket science but is still pretty complex.  There is quite good documentation with rEFINd that  goes into great detail about the booting - stuff I did not know.  I was pretty happy under my rock until I had to get a new machine.  Boy things have certainly changed in the last 10 years.

Thanks again Rich for your help - and everyone else.

 I forgot to ask.  Does anyone recognize the boot menu/manager in the attachment?  After going back to UEFI boot on the first drive, and installing reFind, when I boot os2ldr.efi with reFind the OS/2 boot blob appears in the upper left corner of the screen and then this boot menu.  Which I think means this is coming from OS/2-AOS rather than the bios or reFind.

Thanks Rich.  I was just about to ask whether something like this existed and I saw your post.  I need it because I think I got rid of the files in the ESP.

Update on the install.  The AN installer will run with VisonTek Radeon HD 5450 video card installed. So I installed AOS to the NVME drive (drive c:).  Then installed AOS v 5.1 on a SATA SSD installed on an old, legacy only, Asus/AMD machine with the Radeo x600 and SNAP - as drive U:

Put the x600 in the new machine, along with the SATA SSD (drive u:) to use as a maintenance partition/drive so I can boot with the x600 installed.  Then installed SNAP on the  C: drive (NVME)

As for booting in CSM(legacy) or UEFI mode
It appears the BIOS setting "Boot mode select" (UEFI or LEGACY+UEF) does not determine the mode used when booting.  All Boot mode select does is change the devices that are listed as Fixed Boot Order Priorities (see attached screen shot).  If the boot mode select = UEFI the only devices listed are those with names that begin (in the list) with UEFI.  If boot mode select = Legacy+UEFI then the whole list appears - as shown in the screen shot.

What determine whether you boot in UEFI mode or legacy mode is whether the device name begins with UEFI in the Fixed Boot Order Priorities list.  If it begins with UEFI the system boots in UEFI mode.  If the name does not begin with UEFI the system boots in legacy or CSM mode (the terms are used interchangably in the bios)

SNAP works whether it is booted in UEFI mode or legacy mode - however when booted in UEFI mode the screen blanks and then shows static arranged as triangles spread across the screen for about 10 seconds - and then the desktop comes up normal as it should.  Weird.  When booted in legacy mode the desktop just comes up without the weird temporary static stuff.

The SATA SSD (containing drive u:)  does not show up in the Fixed Boot Order Priorities list and cannot be put in that list.  The only way to boot to that drive/partition is to use the BIOS boot menu (press F11 on startup)  AirBoot installed on the SATA SSD shows all the drives with primary paritions - including drive C: - and will boot to drive C:

So to avoid having to use the bios boot menu to get a legacy boot on my main drive (drive c:) I removed the ESP and installed AirBoot on the NVME.  Big mistake - because now the mouse doesn't work.   Hopefully I can fix this with Rich's CSMtoUEFI utility.

Thanks again to everyone for your help.

It is so painful being ignorant.

You were right Dave,
One other idea, can you fiddle with the PCI settings in the BIOS? Mine allows changing it from X3 to X2 or X1 or similar, slowing it down might be a workaround.

When the x600 video card is in slot 4 SNAP works correctly and is fast - see attachment one: multihead, 3840x1080.  When it is in slot 1 the WPS  Screen object shows the chipset as Vesa v 2.1 and the resolutions are limited to VGA and it is SLOW.    Apparently two of the slots support x1 and the other two don't - see attached excerpts from the manual.  And apparently x1, x4, x16 mean either the size of the connector, the number of PCIe lanes, or the speed.

When running the AOS install the video still goes blank before I get to the screen where I can pick System Management or Install.  Which I think means I can't create an install.log or test.log for AN.

You will notice from the screen shot that Win-OS/2 appears to work - although it takes 10 - 15 seconds from clicking on the icon before Program Manager shows up.  Once it is running it is fast. 

I say "appears to work" because I think something happened between AOS v 5.0 and v 5.06 that makes Win-OS/2 funky.  Funky meaning some apps freeze after being used awhile.  I was starting to try and track down what caused that when my motherboard crapped out - which set me down this path of a new machine.

If the install wont run it appears my work-around is to convert my v 5.1 legacy install from the crapped out motherboard into a UEFI install on the new machine.  BTW - getting the legacy install to boot is interesting.  It has Airboot on the hard drive.  If I touch the USB attached keyboard Airboot freezes - as in the clock count down stops and you can't move the cursor.  If I attach a keyboard to the PS/2 port on the motherboard Airboot works fine - and once AOS is up and running the USB attached keyboard works ok.


Yeah that 64 bit comment looks a little scary.

I picked this one based on comments from other users that it worked.  (plus Ivan has something similar)
although this isn't the exact same board

However I purchased it from MicroCenter (a big computer store in the US) because of its return policy: I have another 7 days before my return period runs out.  So if this is wrong I can switch to something else.

I did pick up another video card (from MicroCenter) in case I need it to get the install working.  But I am holding off opening the package until I hear from AN - cause I don't want to abuse the return policy of the store.  It is a VisionTek Radeon HD5450 that says it can be installed on Windows 10.  ( )

While it doesn't say it supports GOP I figured that by the time Windows 10 came out most motherboards were UEFI - so I am hoping it will work with UEFI.  I was hoping to not have to purchase a video card for the sole purpose of installing AOS, but it won't be the end of the world if that ends up needing to be the case.  (I am working on the theory that once I get AOS installed I can switch to basic VGA, pull out the "install video card", put in the Radeon x600, install SNAP, and be off to the races.)

As for SNAP over Panaroma:  I am currently using a dual head/monitor setup - with a dual head kvm for switching between a Win7 machine and AOS machine (the previous one that died.)  I would like to keep the dual head setup.  Hence my fixation on SNAP.  I would be willing to buy any video card needed to run SNAP to keep the dual head setup.  But I suspect all video cards with chipsets supported by SNAP will be old enough to not have GOP/UEFI support. 

Dave - The test.log for the support ticket.  Could you please explain what you mean? 

And again - thanks all for you help and suggestions.

Dave (and Ivan) - thank you for your help.  I appreciate it.

I have attached the manual for the motherboard.

The message I saw about the video card was: "There is no GOP (Graphics Output Protocol) support detected in this graphics card.  We recommend you use a GOP/UEFI compatible graphics card."  I believe the system then turned on CSM itself.

I think I have two somewhat different issues: 1) the install program stops with a blank screen at PMSHELL, 2) whether SNAP and/or my Radeon X600 will run once the install is complete.

1) Install doesn't run
I THINK the issue with the AOS install is that AOS sets the resolution of the system to a mode that is not supported by the x600 when it switches to graphics mode during the install.  I am basing this on the message from the system diagnostic, and that the x600 card doesn't support GOP.  According to the web GOP replaces VESA as the method to communicate with graphics cards with UEFI.

If that is true, the potential fixes are: 1) buy a graphics card that supports GOP for the install, 2) get AN to add a option to the Boot with Own Values screens where you can specify a resolution for the rest of the install.  The new graphics card will obviously be the fastest solution.

2) Whether the Radeon x600 and/or SNAP will run in UEFI.
Since development on SNAP stopped before UEFI was wide spread I doubt that SNAP used GOP to query the video card.  And I seem to remember that the web said you couldn't use GOP to talk to the card once an OS was booted - although video type data built during the boot process could be accessed from the OS.

So the question is: can SNAP use VESA to talk to the video card installed on a machine using UEFI and CSM?   I would think it would have to in order to run correctly - otherwise how would it know the video resolutions supported by the card and monitor.

And how does the AOS system diagnostics know what the supported video modes are without talking to the card?

I am not opposed to buying new video cards, if that is needed. 

Once again - thanks

more info:

The System Evaluation (Alt-F1) at AOS boot from hard drive or Install/Maintain AOS menu says:

Display native resolution: 1920x1080  not in mode list.  The mode list shows: 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, 1280x1024.

Thanks Dave for the suggestions.  I did poke around in the bios and saw some settings for pcie - like x1, etc.  But I thought X1, X4, X16 signified the number of lanes or width of the pci "bus" and the size of the slot on the motherboard - I am probably not saying any of this correctly because I really don't understand much about pci.

But I did try an experiment.  I had installed AOS v 5.1 on another machine whose motherboard died after installation.  I had the same Radeon x600 card installed on that machine and also setup SNAP - which was working - before the motherboard died.  However that install was legacy bios.  I took that ssd and put it in the new machine (which is UEFI with CSM) and it booted to the desktop.

The system icon shows SNAP as the driver, but it says the chip type is VESA VBE 2.0   The available resolutions on the WPS system/screen object are the same as listed in the test  routine (alt-f1 at the first AOS install menu): 640 x 480, 800 x 600, 1024 x 768, and 1280 x 1024.  Since the desktop does come up on this new machine with the Radeon X600 board I assume the machine can talk to the board - at least in some manner.  But obviously the small system that is installed to the Z drive when booting off the AOS DVD/USB stick cannot talk to the x600 board.  Hummm.

Unfortunately there is no "legacy" option available in the bios - only CSM.  And with CSM turned on the video displays - at least enough to get the first install menu and logo.

It would be pretty easy for me to buy a different video card to get through the installation, if that would solve the problem.  And providing that I could then install SNAP and the Radeon X600 after I got AOS v 5.1 installed.

Does SNAP work with UEFI? 

Setup & Installation / Install - screen goes blank when pmshell starts
« on: January 26, 2024, 07:08:12 am »
Trying to install on a MSI Pro B550-VC motherboard with a Ryzen 5 5600X and Radeon X600 video card.  The Ryzen 5600x processor has no graphics built into the CPU.   CSM is turned on in the bios.

I created a USB stick for the install.  I get the AOS boot menu where it asks if I want to boot from the hard drive or Install/Maintain AOS.  I pick install/maintain.  The AOS logo shows up for a while and then the screen goes blank.

Tried setting AOS install/boot option to turn on showing the loading of drivers (e.g. Alt-F2)  The screen goes blank right after it says PMSHELL.

As a note:  when I turned on the computer for the very first time the screen was blank for a long time (a couple of minutes) and then I got a message to the effect that video was not UEFI compatible and was switching to CSM.

Anyone got any ideas?

Setup & Installation / Re: Are there any 8GB Nvme compatiable motherboard
« on: January 20, 2024, 11:04:19 pm »
I have two run of the mill Dell 27 inch monitors - they aren't even the same exact units but close enough.  Each 1920x1080

I have them hooked up to a  dual-head KVM so that I can share them between multiple computers.  I am using VGA because the Radeon outputs either DVI or VGA and the VGA version of the dual KVM was much cheaper. 

I tried a 49 inch monitor - thinking that I could use the Radeon to drive each half of the 49 inch monitor thought its picuture by picture feature.  But the conversion from VGA to HDMI that the monitor wanted didn't work very well. (I don't think there is a 49 inch that accepts VGA)  And what I discovered is one 49 inch monitor weighs much more than two 27 inchers.  The result being the 49 inch shakes alot when the desk is bumped which doesn't happen with the two 27 inchers.  Plus 27 inch monitors are so cheap now - so I sent the 49 inch back.

Setup & Installation / Re: Are there any 8GB Nvme compatiable motherboard
« on: January 20, 2024, 09:32:42 pm »

Can OS/2 see the full 4gb of memory on your MSI B550A-pro?

Setup & Installation / Re: Are there any 8GB Nvme compatiable motherboard
« on: January 20, 2024, 09:07:24 pm »
Oops - I really meant 4 GB for OS/2 and some more for RAM disk.  Since I think of memory in either 8GB or 16GB units/sticks - I said 8 GB.  I should have said "with a nice linear memory map" - cause that is what I really meant.  I guess I wouldn't oppose a 12 GB ram disk - but 4gb is probably enough.

I am looking for a desktop because I am hooked on using dual monitors - which means SNAP, which means either a built in graphics chip that SNAP supports with 2 outputs, or a desktop so I can use my Radeon x600 PCI card.

ArcaNoae has released a test program that you can run on a perspective computer to see what features/attributes it supports or has.  But I can't realistically take a USB stick into MicroCenter and run it on boxed motherboards. 

Dariusz's idea of an adapter is good - if adapters (PCIe - NVMe) work in OS/2.

But my fear is: everything you can buy now has issues with a non-linear memory map but everything you can buy now has NVMe built it. So I am probably looking at used - not from Microcenter.  < edit - just checked an apparently you can still get the MSI 550A Pro motherboard - so I will be looking at that.  It appears to only have 2 PCIe tiny slots and one large PCIe-x16 slot.  I have seen a PCIe-x1 to PCI adapter so maybe that would work from my serial port card.

Setup & Installation / Are there any 8GB Nvme compatiable motherboard
« on: January 20, 2024, 05:54:57 pm »
Anyone aware of a motherboard that handles nvme and provides os/2 access to the full 8gb of main memory?

I don't see one on the wiki and was hoping someone has experience with building such a system.

Applications / Re: ArcaOS 5.1 - First Impressions
« on: January 17, 2024, 06:20:45 pm »
Not discounting most of the concerns of Sigurd,  my view of ArcaNoae as a private user is/has been more upbeat. 

While virtualization is certainly a good solution for laptop users who aren't brave/foolish enough to modify their laptop's BIOS  (e.g. to remove whitelist for WiFi adapters), I don't think it is the only future for OS/2 users.  However I did see lots of users with AOS installed in  virtual machines on laptops at Warpstock, 

But the release of EUFI, NVMe and USB3 support shows that virtualization is not the only path forward for OS/2.  It is a path, but not the only one.

ArcaNoae is a business.  I would prefer they stay in business, even if that means making hard decisions on what to work on and not work on based on potential revenue and cost considerations.  I benefit from the things they do release that I need - even if it is not everything I need.  This is just my opinion, but I think it is worth paying for licenses and subscriptions so that ArcaNoae has revenue to stay in business and continue releasing improvements to OS/2.

I was surprised, but pleased, that ArcaNoae released a notice on the impending demise of Hobbes.  I thought the reason was so that people would know what was happening to keep the Hobbes archive working.  OS2voice is the best organization for running Hobbes now - thanks Roderick and all the others for their work on moving Hobbes from NMSU.  And thanks to NMSU for hosting Hobbes for so long.  The OS/2 community appreciates it.

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